camel archers/polls/other

Keshik or Camel Archer - Which is better?

  • Keshik

    Votes: 76 84.4%
  • Camel Archer

    Votes: 14 15.6%

  • Total voters
    90
I imagine the player would have to be pretty absent minded to allow himself to become fully surrounded and incapable of escape through pure retreat.

Even in that case though, the 4 Keshiks would be able to gang up on a single Camel Archer, destroy it and provide enough space to get away, removing the alleged advantage.


If the keshiks are invading the camels territory the camels will have a huge tactical edge with full sight and likely better knowledge of terrain unless the enemy has mapped you thoroughly, including the use of roads. This makes flanking and trapping movements very easy with a larger force of mobile troops. On the offense the camels will find it more difficult. In either event however I think the use of terrain can defray much if not all of the keshik movement point advantage. Place a hill between us and you can't fire over it. Use zone of control to advantage to trap a keshik and swarm it with multiple powerful ranged attacks.

In any event, this is a very specialised situation, keshik vs camel archer, generally wars will be fought against a larger variety of foes. Against other foes would you want 4 keshiks over 6 camel archers? A camel archer has enough range and movement to stay outside the range of anything but keshiks with ease. Camel archers will tear a city or army apart in short time and you can build them so fast that the enemy falls very quickly. Why bother with slowbuilding keshiks who can run away better? With massed range from more powerful camels you rarely need to run away and if you do you can run away from anything other than keshiks with ease. Plus.. you don't have to play the mongols with their weak ua and not very special khan unit.

Someone argued the situation of a city surrounded by hills (or something along those lines), in which the keshik can scoot in, shoot, then withdraw. That's true, in these rare situations the keshik will take less damage. Having more camel archers tho means that even if a couple get damaged and need to heal you still possess greater overall offensive punch with a higher base attack.

Perhaps people play flatter maps than me, my maps have forests, hills, rivers, EVERYWHERE. Extra movement points rarely helps in these situations. Camel archers force you to play more cautiously, being smart about terrain. I rarely experience any losses or damage in the field, at most I might get some damage attacking a city. I guess if you like playing with some room for human error, then the keshiks movement points might let you "take back" a bad move, but this just encourages sloppy play so when you are not playing the mongols you'll have a very difficult time.
 
Do a little experiment to test which unit really dominates better. Fire up a deity tiny pangaea map and conquer the 3 AIs as fast as you can. This is the same as being in a continents game where you share your landmass with 3 other civs, one of the most common distributions.

If I play that map standard speed with Mongolia then the 3 AIs will be lucky to see turn 120 alive, with Arabia it takes significantly longer. The camels just aren't as good on offence, I can't realistically see how you can argue otherwise.

And the khan a lackluster UU? The khan perfectly complements mongolia's other unique aspects. If the camel archer wants to have the benefit of a GG and maintain it's strength advantage over the keshik then it must wait around for the 2 move GG to keep up with it. This slows down the camel archer even further compared to the keshik that can move at 5, along with the khan.
 
Do a little experiment to test which unit really dominates better. Fire up a deity tiny pangaea map and conquer the 3 AIs as fast as you can. This is the same as being in a continents game where you share your landmass with 3 other civs, one of the most common distributions.

If I play that map standard speed with Mongolia then the 3 AIs will be lucky to see turn 120 alive, with Arabia it takes significantly longer. The camels just aren't as good on offence, I can't realistically see how you can argue otherwise.

And the khan a lackluster UU? The khan perfectly complements mongolia's other unique aspects. If the camel archer wants to have the benefit of a GG and maintain it's strength advantage over the keshik then it must wait around for the 2 move GG to keep up with it. This slows down the camel archer even further compared to the keshik that can move at 5, along with the khan.


Great Generals have a large range and two movements is plenty to cover most if not all of your troops under most conditions. Khan seems pretty silly imo, extra healing speed? Really? If you are in desperate need of healing ranged mobile units you aren't using your troops very effectively, with two range and 5 mobility on the keshiks you shouldn't be getting hit in the first place to need that healing bonus. Wasted second U* imo, give me a bazaar any day.

Tiny pangaea maps prejudice things in favour of high cost units, since your armies will generally be much smaller, which removes the disadvantage of the keshik high cost and explains the claims of conquering 'entire continents with 3 keshiks and a swordsman'. It's no wonder you can conquer an entire continent with that many troops when your continent consists of maybe 5 cities! Try a standard terra map, multiple civs stretched across the map, some overseas colonies, multiple civs attacking at once from different fronts, much more difficult than a methodical path through a tiny continent with a tiny amount of units. On a tiny map civs like Germany with their ultra cheap landsknecht lose a lot of their advantage. Nevertheless, even having said all this, are you telling me you would find it difficult to conquer a tiny pangaea map with camel archers?? Really? They're such easy units to use. I really find the extra movements of the keshik overkill unless you're really really sloppy in moving your troops and constantly waste movement points or need to correct errors in moves.

Once you realize that movement advantage gives minimal if any advantage, you realize the superior unit is that which is cheaper to build and has a stronger attack.
 
So you're saying that Camel Archers, a unit that is slower and more prone to take damage than the Keshik, is better at conquering a large area? Keshiks get 2x experience...hence logistics MUCH faster
 
So you're saying that Camel Archers, a unit that is slower and more prone to take damage than the Keshik, is better at conquering a large area? Keshiks get 2x experience...hence logistics MUCH faster


Yes, give me a troop I can have 50% more of and that dishes out more damage over one that is 'faster'. You say "more prone to take damage", I don't seriously understand how you are taking damage with a unit that has a ranged attack of two spaces and can move three spaces a turn :confused: Again I think if you were more tactical (as you should be) you would find those extra two movements on the keshik unnecessary luxuries which don't provide any benefit except in allowing you to correct mistakes you shouldn't have made in the first place. If you have barracks etc, logistics doesn't take extremely long to get to, plus if you're getting hit as often as you claim you may need to use the auto-heal instead of the promotion on your units.

I'm not sure whether a patch has changed this, but no one has mentioned the fact either that not only does the camel archer have a stronger ranged attack, it also has a stronger strength in being attacked. I wasn't aware of this until I double-checked the stats I have here: http://well-of-souls.com/civ/civ5_medieval_units.html#keshik

Keshik
Movement: 5*; Strength: 8; Ranged Strength: 13; Range: 2; Cost: 225; Required Resources: Horses

Camel Archer
Movement: 3; Strength: 10; Ranged Strength: 15; Range: 2; Cost: 150; Required Resources: Horses


Just keeps getting better for the Camel Archer.
 
You say "more prone to take damage", I don't seriously understand how you are taking damage with a unit that has a ranged attack of two spaces and can move three spaces a turn :confused:

Camel archers are quite good at avoiding damage. Just not as good as Keshiks, hence my usage of the word "more".

Again I think if you were more tactical (as you should be) you would find those extra two movements on the keshik unnecessary luxuries which don't provide any benefit except in allowing you to correct mistakes you shouldn't have made in the first place.

Again you are ignoring the fact that Keshiks can move onto rough terrain, fire, then retreat, which Camel Archers cannot do. There is a lot of benefit in that.

If you have barracks etc, logistics doesn't take extremely long to get to, plus if you're getting hit as often as you claim you may need to use the auto-heal instead of the promotion on your units.

So, you can do that with Kehiks as well, now you have extra range or indirect fire. Moot point.

I'm not sure whether a patch has changed this, but no one has mentioned the fact either that not only does the camel archer have a stronger ranged attack, it also has a stronger strength in being attacked. I wasn't aware of this until I double-checked the stats I have here: http://well-of-souls.com/civ/civ5_medieval_units.html#keshik

Keshik
Movement: 5*; Strength: 8; Ranged Strength: 13; Range: 2; Cost: 225; Required Resources: Horses

Camel Archer
Movement: 3; Strength: 10; Ranged Strength: 15; Range: 2; Cost: 150; Required Resources: Horses


Just keeps getting better for the Camel Archer.

Irrelevant if the Camel Archers can never hit the Keshiks because they are dead already.

Look, the camel archer is a nice unit. But this thread is about which is better. In a head to head matchup, the camel archer just doesn't stand a chance due to the speed of the Keshik.
 
Sure, there's an advantage in being able to go onto rough terrain and fire then retreat. There's also an advantage in having 50% more troops who inflict 2 extra damage and have 2 extra strength. I personally prefer the unit which is stronger. You have Bruce Lee I have Mike Tyson, you can dance around me doing minimal damage, but once I hit you with superior strength you are going down, it's all a matter of outsmarting you. In my opinion speed can be outsmarted far easier than strength. Again tho, this comparison isn't really about which can win head on against eachother, more how they function for conquest in the game as a whole. I find the attack strength advantage combined with having more troops means I can conquer things far quicker than when I play the Mongols. The keshik is an okay unit, but it's frustratingly weak.
 
You're making a false claim that you can have 50% more camel archers than keshiks. You can't. The barrier that you run up against with both units is access to horses, not cost. The keshiks produce more GG's which after the first one or possibly two are burned for extra golden ages making up for any increased cost. But that's a moot point anyway. You can field as many of both units as you can get access to horses, that's the real limiting factor. Money rolls in from conquest.

My suggested experiment with a tiny pangaea map was to demonstrate how an initial war of conquest goes with both units. A tiny pangaea map is not dissimilar to a continent of 4 civs. It'll contain a lot more than 5 cities, more like 15 - 20. And my point was not that it is hard to conquer a tiny deity pangaea with camel archers, but that it is slower. So if we then translate that to a standard deity pangaea the Arabia player is attacking the last three civs at a significantly later date and will run into significantly greater resistance and is therefore less effective.

Claiming that the extra 2 move points are superfluous and convey little to no advantage is ludicrous. Instead of covering up sloppy play they can be used to give maximum possible tactical advantage to the human player. The fact is that even though the keshik has a lower attack, more attacks can be fired as there's rarely a situation that your entire army cannot cycle or rotate through critical hexes to shoot. A camel archer moving into a rough tile can only fire from there, not move afterward. This is a massive disadvantage compared to the keshik.

Artillery is the first unit type that makes things awkward for keshiks, but for camel archers they're a deal breaker. On standard maps conquering 7 civs with a camel archer based army and by the time you hit the last few civs you're going to find that the ball games over and you need to change the composition of your army. Not so with keshiks.

Deity standard domination games are winnable with Mongolia deep into the sub 200 range. I've never seen anyone post anywhere near that kind of result with Arabia.

Question: have you ever won a standard everything deity domination game with Arabia? I wouldn't enjoy the task as I think they're better suited to other victory types, but with Mongolia that's the prime VC to go for.
 
You're making a false claim that you can have 50% more camel archers than keshiks. You can't. The barrier that you run up against with both units is access to horses, not cost. The keshiks produce more GG's which after the first one or possibly two are burned for extra golden ages making up for any increased cost. But that's a moot point anyway. You can field as many of both units as you can get access to horses, that's the real limiting factor. Money rolls in from conquest.

My suggested experiment with a tiny pangaea map was to demonstrate how an initial war of conquest goes with both units. A tiny pangaea map is not dissimilar to a continent of 4 civs. It'll contain a lot more than 5 cities, more like 15 - 20. And my point was not that it is hard to conquer a tiny deity pangaea with camel archers, but that it is slower. So if we then translate that to a standard deity pangaea the Arabia player is attacking the last three civs at a significantly later date and will run into significantly greater resistance and is therefore less effective.

Claiming that the extra 2 move points are superfluous and convey little to no advantage is ludicrous. Instead of covering up sloppy play they can be used to give maximum possible tactical advantage to the human player. The fact is that even though the keshik has a lower attack, more attacks can be fired as there's rarely a situation that your entire army cannot cycle or rotate through critical hexes to shoot. A camel archer moving into a rough tile can only fire from there, not move afterward. This is a massive disadvantage compared to the keshik.

Artillery is the first unit type that makes things awkward for keshiks, but for camel archers they're a deal breaker. On standard maps conquering 7 civs with a camel archer based army and by the time you hit the last few civs you're going to find that the ball games over and you need to change the composition of your army. Not so with keshiks.

Deity standard domination games are winnable with Mongolia deep into the sub 200 range. I've never seen anyone post anywhere near that kind of result with Arabia.

Question: have you ever won a standard everything deity domination game with Arabia? I wouldn't enjoy the task as I think they're better suited to other victory types, but with Mongolia that's the prime VC to go for.


The barrier can be resources, but in a war with losses on both sides the barrier is production speed, who can replace units quicker? I rarely find myself in a situation where I run out of horses tho, seems I can always either conquer enough in an early war or buy off a city state.

You should try that experiment you propose before you come to a conclusion about the outcome of it. You may be surprised when you throw in Arabia's other specials how much quicker/more powerful you will be over the Mongols. I've played many games with both civs and every time I dominate thoroughly with Arabia in every sphere of the game, during the era of camel archers, helped in large part by camel archers, while the Mongols don't play as smoothly and money/happiness constraints they experience significantly slow down any conquest of any map of size above tiny. The ability to purchase happiness and support large empires/armies/city state allies will always win over the mongol specials. This test however is flawed in that it does include the other unique building/unit and ability, giving the edge to Arabia, but not a pure matchup of unit vs unit. Also in any test like this you would run into the problem of determining which ai civs to choose, some might be more challenging for keshiks/mongols than the camels/arabia and vice versa.

My suggestion would be, with camel archers, don't move into a rough terrain spot? There's nearly always alternatives. As for "maximum tactical advantage", I would say this is already reached with a 3 movement unit that can fire two spaces away. Anything beyond this for movement spaces conveys only the most minute of advantages and does not outmatch the improved strength, attack strength, and low production cost of the camel archer.

With mongols you need to conquer the world with keshiks vs artillery fights. With arabia you will have such a vast science lead that you'll be far into cavalry based armies long before the enemy has artillery. Like in civ iv, economy will always win out over one specialised unit limited to a specific era.

If no one is posting these victorys it is likely because Arabia is considered more of a 'culture/science/diplomatic" victory contender, this is where Arabia really shines. If you are going to a challenging domination victory people will likely choose those civs which are more stereotypically associated with that kind of victory. Also, people get into this game the way in which dungeons and dragons players do and seem to pick civs more for their historical prowess rather than their in-game abilities and the Mongols were far more interesting than the Arabs historically, prejudicing people to play them more often.

I have won a deity domination standard everything with Arabia. I'm not sure what this is meant to prove or disprove tho? The AI is horrible in this game and tho I haven't yet, I don't think it would be too difficult to pull this off with even Kamehameha. I would really like to see an improved AI in this game that acts at all logically, even giving the AI masses of troops doesn't seem to help them any, they still have no ability to focus on strategic or tactical goals to any degree, nor have the flexibility to adapt to changing conditions of a battlefield. I think this is the problem with the hex single-unit per tile format of this game versus previous incarnations of Civ, the programming which would be involved to create an effective AI would need to be of such a high level that it becomes ridiculous to contemplate. What sort of supercomputer was required to run a chess AI that could beat Kasparov? And that was just chess, this game has far more variables than that game.
 
The barrier can be resources, but in a war with losses on both sides the barrier is production speed, who can replace units quicker?
That's exactly the point you don't get. There are no loses on keshiks' side unlike on camel archers' side. You have to be extremely unlucky or very... skillful to lose keshiks.

I guess, along with 'AI is so good!' and some other 'hot' topics people will never get tired of 'Keshiks suck!' threads. :crazyeye:
 
Keshiks don't suck. Since I'm such a fan of camel archers I naturally find their lesser cousin a likewise powerful and useful unit.

You don't have losses with keshiks, I don't have losses with camel archers. My point is, you have a unit there that can move _3_ spaces, can fire from _2_ spaces away, this provides an abundance of distance to put between yourself and enemy units. Giving 2 EXTRA movements is overkill, you don't need it, what are you going to do with it? Jump onto hills to shoot instead of grassland? Maybe move back and forth a couple of times just to show you can?
 
(Stolen from Youtube)

5 players have never played Mongolia :lol:

Seriously, i think the 5 moves + move then attack + khan are what make these units so powerful(op?).
 
Keshiks don't suck. Since I'm such a fan of camel archers I naturally find their lesser cousin a likewise powerful and useful unit.

You don't have losses with keshiks, I don't have losses with camel archers. My point is, you have a unit there that can move _3_ spaces, can fire from _2_ spaces away, this provides an abundance of distance to put between yourself and enemy units. Giving 2 EXTRA movements is overkill, you don't need it, what are you going to do with it? Jump onto hills to shoot instead of grassland? Maybe move back and forth a couple of times just to show you can?

Just try to hit & run a human opponent in his territory. He'll simply use horses to catch you off guard & your camels will loose terribly. Knights have 3 moves & horsemen have 4. They can catch you very easily by using roads. However Keshliks can outrun & kill even the fastest units. Sipahis could be problematic but a Keshlik will have tons of promos at that time to kill them. Also you are forgetting that more moves mean that Keshlik would be much much effective to beat a defender exploiting choke points.
 
You don't have losses with keshiks, I don't have losses with camel archers.
You really need to make you mind. Whether you claim for losses on both sides and your strongest argument is easier replacement or there are no losses for CA's. We both know the answer, though. Don't we? ;)

You're just blinded by love, my friend. ;)

I think what happened is that you've played several successful Arabia games and loved it. You're right. Arabia is a good overall civ with a solid UU, nobody claims the opposite. I'm a fan of Arabia too, it's universal and good for any type of game.
Now play the same amount of domination games with Mongolia and you'll not remember having this conversation.
 
Think of situations like when attacking a city surrounded by a lot of forest tiles but with one hill that is 2 tiles away from the city from which ranged attacks can be launched. A large army of keshiks, say 7, can likely all rotate through that hill tile attacking the city and still move away to safety. No other unit can do that. The camels run out of move points and bog down the area. There are lots of situations like that where the keshiks really show their worth, both attacking cities and clearing out enemy units.

I couldn't agree more, Snarzberry. This is the perfect example of a situation where Keshik excel: they can kill without being hit, they are useful in the field as well as attacking cities. As people have said before though, they are the one and only focus of the Mongol Empire. Without horses you are like England in the middle of a huge Pangaea map. (except for the longbowmen :)) I especially like the flavor here: Mongols are just who they were in history: mythical horsemen who scared the world and traveled huge distances in no time. That makes the Arabian Camel Archer look small. But no worries, Harun has plenty of other benefits.
 
In multiplayer, it doesn't really matter only because it rest on who is quicker and smarter than the other.

In single player, I can't see how any average player can lose the fight against the AI.

All other arguments are negated by these two points that I have made.
 
My point is, you have a unit there that can move _3_ spaces, can fire from _2_ spaces away, this provides an abundance of distance to put between yourself and enemy units. Giving 2 EXTRA movements is overkill, you don't need it, what are you going to do with it? Jump onto hills to shoot instead of grassland?

Umm...yes. This is exactly what people do with it. What if there is a forest in between that tile and the target? You can only fire over a forest from on a hill. The camel archer can only move onto the hill and fire, but not retreat, so they are likely dead the next turn. And if there is forest on the hill, they can't even fire. In that case the Keshik can STILL fire and retreat.

You are really underestimating the value of having 5 movement points with a ranged unit.
 
In multiplayer, it doesn't really matter only because it rest on who is quicker and smarter than the other.

In single player, I can't see how any average player can lose the fight against the AI.

All other arguments are negated by these two points that I have made.

Amen to that.
 
Horsemen can be a problem for Camels, more a problem for the Keshik tho, assuming a player playing with either unit _isn't_ properly scouting ahead, the Keshik when hit will suffer far more damage than the camel. If you are properly scouting ahead and being aware of roads in the vicinity then you can avoid most if not all horsemen issues, either as a camel or a keshik.

In the circumstance of hills surrounding a city, keshiks can all jump on the hill and shoot the city then run away. More camels doing More damage will knock out most cities in one turn not necessitating running away in the first place.
 
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