Can we have equality without equal material wealth?

There was startup stuff, yes. But it wasn't 60% of your working career. But man, I really need to disagree with the trust of the post. Buying a home, stater cash to fund a business, money for an advanced degree, or the money to pay one off... those are huge rewards and allocations of the nation's wealth.
 
Mm mm mm, look at all the libs opining on Marx who very obviously have not actually read Marx.
Yes, yes, avoid and snark, avoid and snark.
 
There was startup stuff, yes. But it wasn't 60% of your working career.
The amount proposed by Piketty is not 60% of your working career, it's 60% of the average wealth. His estimate for France was 120,000 euros.

But man, I really need to disagree with the trust of the post. Buying a home, stater cash to fund a business, money for an advanced degree, or the money to pay one off... those are huge rewards and allocations of the nation's wealth.
I don't know what 60% of average wealth would be in the US, and Piketty's 120,000 euros for the French is a difficult comparison because so many things are different in France. Education costs being a big one. Probably healthcare costs, too (at the very least, I feel confident saying healthcare costs less in France, because healthcare costs less than it does in the US just about everywhere). I don't know what homes cost in France, compared to here, but I've read that housing costs are a problem almost everywhere right now.
 
I'm not quite sure how to apply this here, but I'll just throw it out there: On a podcast I listened to over the weekend, Thomas Piketty criticized Americans for paying lip-service to the idea of "equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome", while simultaneously preventing any redistribution of inherited wealth. Piketty proposed that, with a proper wealth tax, everyone in Europe and America (not sure if he meant N. America or just the U.S.) could be given something like $100,000 when they turn a certain age (21, maybe?). A quick Google search says he proposed giving everyone a "startup investment" equal to 60% of their country's average wealth on their 25th birthday, funded by wealth taxes, which would be 120,000 euros per person in France.

---

re: socialists/communists. I remember many years ago having a conversation with a college-campus socialist, and one of the things that struck me was that he wasn't particularly concerned with wealth inequality. iirc, we were talking about the insane salaries of Major League Baseball players, and he said it didn't bother him, because pro baseball was one of the places where the workers actually get a good share of the wealth they generate by their labor. That might have been when I decided I didn't want to be a socialist. :lol:

I certainly think fairly harsh wealth/inheritence taxes as well as hefty taxes on or banning private education would be needed if we were serious about equality of opportunity and social mobility. We just pay lip service to the idea.
 
Yes, housing. Time for a new Lustron.
 
I'm not quite sure how to apply this here, but I'll just throw it out there: On a podcast I listened to over the weekend, Thomas Piketty criticized Americans for paying lip-service to the idea of "equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome", while simultaneously preventing any redistribution of inherited wealth. Piketty proposed that, with a proper wealth tax, everyone in Europe and America (not sure if he meant N. America or just the U.S.) could be given something like $100,000 when they turn a certain age (21, maybe?). A quick Google search says he proposed giving everyone a "startup investment" equal to 60% of their country's average wealth on their 25th birthday, funded by wealth taxes, which would be 120,000 euros per person in France
That would be pretty amazing. Obviously kids should have a mandatory money management education before receiving that $. Would be really sad if they blew it all in a year and ended up poor the rest of their lives.

Really sad that people are generally the most poor when they have kids and have to neglect their kids to work all the time (cause of a lot of trauma and neglect).

Then if they're lucky they finally have time when they're old but it's a little late then for many of them
 
Yes, yes, avoid and snark, avoid and snark.

Marx said:
What we have to deal with here is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it emerges. Accordingly, the individual producer receives back from society – after the deductions have been made – exactly what he gives to it. What he has given to it is his individual quantum of labor. For example, the social working day consists of the sum of the individual hours of work; the individual labor time of the individual producer is the part of the social working day contributed by him, his share in it. He receives a certificate from society that he has furnished such-and-such an amount of labor (after deducting his labor for the common funds); and with this certificate, he draws from the social stock of means of consumption as much as the same amount of labor cost. The same amount of labor which he has given to society in one form, he receives back in another.

Here, obviously, the same principle prevails as that which regulates the exchange of commodities, as far as this is exchange of equal values. Content and form are changed, because under the altered circumstances no one can give anything except his labor, and because, on the other hand, nothing can pass to the ownership of individuals, except individual means of consumption. But as far as the distribution of the latter among the individual producers is concerned, the same principle prevails as in the exchange of commodity equivalents: a given amount of labor in one form is exchanged for an equal amount of labor in another form.

Hence, equal right here is still in principle – bourgeois right, although principle and practice are no longer at loggerheads, while the exchange of equivalents in commodity exchange exists only on the average and not in the individual case.

In spite of this advance, this equal right is still constantly stigmatized by a bourgeois limitation. The right of the producers is proportional to the labor they supply; the equality consists in the fact that measurement is made with an equal standard, labor.

But one man is superior to another physically, or mentally, and supplies more labor in the same time, or can labor for a longer time; and labor, to serve as a measure, must be defined by its duration or intensity, otherwise it ceases to be a standard of measurement. This equal right is an unequal right for unequal labor. It recognizes no class differences, because everyone is only a worker like everyone else; but it tacitly recognizes unequal individual endowment, and thus productive capacity, as a natural privilege. It is, therefore, a right of inequality, in its content, like every right. Right, by its very nature, can consist only in the application of an equal standard; but unequal individuals (and they would not be different individuals if they were not unequal) are measurable only by an equal standard insofar as they are brought under an equal point of view, are taken from one definite side only – for instance, in the present case, are regarded only as workers and nothing more is seen in them, everything else being ignored. Further, one worker is married, another is not; one has more children than another, and so on and so forth. Thus, with an equal performance of labor, and hence an equal in the social consumption fund, one will in fact receive more than another, one will be richer than another, and so on. To avoid all these defects, right, instead of being equal, would have to be unequal.

But these defects are inevitable in the first phase of communist society as it is when it has just emerged after prolonged birth pangs from capitalist society. Right can never be higher than the economic structure of society and its cultural development conditioned thereby.

In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly – only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!

I have dealt more at length with the "undiminished" proceeds of labor, on the one hand, and with "equal right" and "fair distribution", on the other, in order to show what a crime it is to attempt, on the one hand, to force on our Party again, as dogmas, ideas which in a certain period had some meaning but have now become obsolete verbal rubbish, while again perverting, on the other, the realistic outlook, which it cost so much effort to instill into the Party but which has now taken root in it, by means of ideological nonsense about right and other trash so common among the democrats and French socialists.

Quite apart from the analysis so far given, it was in general a mistake to make a fuss about so-called distribution and put the principal stress on it.

Any distribution whatever of the means of consumption is only a consequence of the distribution of the conditions of production themselves. The latter distribution, however, is a feature of the mode of production itself. The capitalist mode of production, for example, rests on the fact that the material conditions of production are in the hands of nonworkers in the form of property in capital and land, while the masses are only owners of the personal condition of production, of labor power. If the elements of production are so distributed, then the present-day distribution of the means of consumption results automatically. If the material conditions of production are the co-operative property of the workers themselves, then there likewise results a distribution of the means of consumption different from the present one. Vulgar socialism (and from it in turn a section of the democrats) has taken over from the bourgeois economists the consideration and treatment of distribution as independent of the mode of production and hence the presentation of socialism as turning principally on distribution. After the real relation has long been made clear, why retrogress again?
 
People can reply to what they want, you know that. You don't see me campaigning for a response :p

(to be clear: am not and still do not demand anything - just felt like raising it in-context)
Well I thought your response though slightly noncommittal as well was pretty good!

and obviously I agree with @schlaufuchs that reading the actual sources directly is the way to go. Still she can use her well read mind to engage this rather limited thread, with or without referencing her influences.
 
Part of the problem of large numbers is that they don't actually divide up into smaller numbers, when you're using dollars. If a billionaire's wealth is in the form of an airline, then you cannot somehow give a million people $1,000 each by taxing her. That wealth is better represented as an income stream, not as a pool of money.

As to the redistribution into an early investment into the people: how is that viewed when viewed in lieu? Like, is a free college education and free lifetime healthcare equivalent enough? Or, since college isn't for everyone, a path A and a path B people can take? Would that be a 'large' redistribution?

I like to think of an inheritance tax that kicks in after there's enough wealth transferred such that the kids could go onto a 'generous' UBI. I happen to think that most of the UBI proposals are too generous (and a bad idea). Using the Picketty 'wealth transfer' above, $100k is about $4k in annual income (that's then safely indexed to grow perpetually). That's a UBI that's well-below what other people are proposing. However, an inheritance of $1 million means $40k in 'free income', which is a lot and labor becomes gravy over top of that.

We have a variant of a UBI (or, really, a National Basic Income) in Canada, where our seniors receive ~$650 per month. There's clawback, but only when they're still receiving real money in other ways. I'm not going to run the annuity calculation, but this is a fairly large lump of money when rejiggered as a lump sum.
 
Well I thought your response though slightly noncommittal as well was pretty good!

and obviously I agree with @schlaufuchs that reading the actual sources directly is the way to go. Still she can use her well read mind to engage this rather limited thread, with or without referencing her influences.
Of course she can. But at the same time I'm pretty sympathetic to criticising people who raise references they themselves don't even seem familiar with.
 
Of course she can. But at the same time I'm pretty sympathetic to criticising people who raise references they themselves don't even seem familiar with.
Seem is a funny word.

There were two references to Marx in this thread, mine was from a read perspective. But only the section I referenced. Would you know?

I’ll be slightly vicious: you liked the Marx quote post before you had time to read it.
 
If you don't agree w something sacred to someone else it seems you don't really understand it.

If you associate Marx with the pursuit of equality, you do not understand Marx straight up.

Additionally the “humans are naturally greedy/selfish” arguers are also off the mark. If there could be anything like a true human tendency in a putative state of nature, that tendency is towards mutual aid and a conscious elimination of hierarchy as it develops, and probably has been from the moment humans developed the ability to use projectile weapons and produce poisons. This has been the case in basically every immediate return Hunter-gatherer society we have ever observed. Humans tend towards greed/selfishness given material conditions that produce them, namely when subsistence is dependent on a fixed resource whose access can be restricted, and the ability to freely associate is thereby eliminated.
 
In this case I agree with, well, that passage of Marx, it’s a moot point in the quest for an equality based utopia, to equalize material wealth in our current society, as implicitly suggested by driving money to the bottom.

I don’t think, and don’t know, if Marx actually believed in a steady state end to history communist equality or just that’s what a next step logically looks like from here.

If @Narz is agreeing with my limited citation of Marx in a thread about equality and not actually about Marx, he’s already agreeing that Marx is not about the equality that is the topic of the OP.
 
I’ll be slightly vicious: you liked the Marx quote post before you had time to read it.
The problem with this kind of tendency is you, by dint of this being the Internet, are likely to run into people who can read that fast. There isn't often much point in bragging, it's a rather niche skill for a software developer, but you were slightly vicious, so :p

With a text of decent complexity, it takes a while to sink in (and I read it twice through to be sure), but I knew just by the general gist that it was on the money. When it comes to regular literature, it often takes me longer to turn the page than it does to read it. For a fun bonus fact: I used to get bullied (way) back in the day about it. Folks would nick my books and quiz me at random. Truly, the dumbassery of high school kids knows no bounds. Well, a scarce few anyway :D
 
We have a variant of a UBI (or, really, a National Basic Income) in Canada, where our seniors receive ~$650 per month. There's clawback, but only when they're still receiving real money in other ways. I'm not going to run the annuity calculation, but this is a fairly large lump of money when rejiggered as a lump sum.
$195,000 $CD will generate that $7800 annually at 4%.
 
$195,000 $CD will generate that $7800 annually at 4%.

Yeah, but the money disappears after you die. I'd rather have $195k than Old Age Security, because it would pass immediately to my kids via inheritance. As it is, they're currently going to each inherit a $7800 income when they turn 65, due to the citizenship I blessed them with.
 
I don’t think, and don’t know, if Marx actually believed in a steady state end to history communist equality or just that’s what a next step logically looks like from here.

Marx, being a Hegel-influenced materialist, did not believe in being, but saw everything as existing in a continuous process of becoming. He fervently rejected teleology of any kind, even to the point of writing glowingly of his contemporary Darwin, in whose work he saw the potential to finally rid the British sciences of its pernicious teleological thinking. It’s not for no reason that he described communism as the point at which real human history could truly begin.
 
Back
Top Bottom