Canada defends women's rights; Saudi Arabia threatens 9/11-style attack

[Lexicus]

an arms deal (possibly) going through

The arms deal has already gone through. Deliveries started on schedule in 2017 and are supposed to continue until 2031.

I mean, if you look into it, this "Canadian government stupidly grandstanding" was one person posting a tweet and the Saudis throwing a world-class tantrum. We haven't done anything.

It wasn't "one person posting a tweet," it was a tweet from an official Canadian government account (unlike the threatening 9/11 tweet referenced in the OP).

It is relevant because you are going "Hmm, very interesting" while stroking your chin about an arms deal (possibly) going through when some people don't like what the Saudis are doing, but the US is the largest offender of this syndrome by an awesome margin on the very same subject.

So it is just whataboutism?

You haven't caught anyone in a ruse. You haven't uncovered anything that "does not compute". You know what's going on, or at least you should, and you should also know that the US and Canada are friends in the dealing-arms-while-showboating-about-human-rights camp.

I think I caught the Canadian government in a ruse of caring about human rights.
I do know perfectly well that Canada and the US are friends in this department, the question is whether anyone else does...

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I guess I'm just not seeing the relevance of the US's relationship with Saudi Arabia here. This is a thread about Canada criticizing Saudi Arabia's human rights abuses, but it is facilitating those abuses by selling arms to the country. If Canada really cared about the human rights issue you'd think they'd put their money where their mouth is an cancel the deal. But instead I find an article saying that Canadian stakeholders are worried that the Saudis will cancel the deal!

An unfortunate fact of political life in this country is that while a government may take an overall stand on an issue (ie. feminism and human rights), it's sometimes economically necessary (or politically necessary from a domestic pov) to hold your nose and go ahead with a deal that was actually made by the previous government.

Part of this is because Trudeau wants Canada to be seen as a country that stands by its word, even if that word was given by a Reformacon warmonger with very little regard for women who aren't old-stock Canadians of European ancestry.


And as mentioned, the people who work at manufacturing these things depend on this for earning a living. People whose livelihood takes a nosedive due to the decisions of a particular federal party/Prime Minister would be less likely to vote for that party.

Keep in mind that our next federal election is scheduled for October 2019 (assuming nothing happens in the meantime, such as the Liberals losing a non-confidence vote, which would trigger an early election). The Liberals are walking a tightrope in some regions between the people they've ticked off during the last three years and the people they're trying to avoid ticking off in the time remaining.


Please note that the above is an attempt to explain, not excuse. I'm not a member of that party, did not vote for them in 2015, and won't be voting for them next year.

The propaganda is strong with you my son.

Canada isn't leading anything. If they truly were leaders, they wouldn't be begging their allies to help them resolve this little spat between them and Saudi Arabia.

Where has Canada been "begging" anyone to help? Some surprise has been expressed that the UK took the stance it did, but I'm not really surprised that Trump is sitting back on this. As some have pointed out here, he's enjoying this and some think it means he'll figure he can pry more concessions out of Canada with NAFTA.

Statements like this are a huge pet peeve of mine. I find it more than a little disgusting and morally reprehensible for those who have never experienced war to sit in the comfort and safety of their own homes and advocate for war.

You sit there and say you think someone should destroy their military assets, but I bet if your country was the one to do it, you wouldn't even consider picking up a rifle and going to fight. And I don't care how much of a jerk I sound like for saying this, but it takes a pretty big coward to advocate for a war that you aren't willing to go fight yourself.

Do let us know when Trump passes his basic training, picks up a gun, and goes off to fight wherever it is you people are killing other people these days.

There actually was a time when the leader of a country (usually the king) was expected to lead the army personally, and actually fight.

The Canadian public couldn't care less about Saudi Arabia. Of course those with their jobs on the line would not be keen on the deal being slashed.

The part of the Canadian public who come from Saudi Arabia probably care about this (note that I'm talking about those who have become citizens).

Then what is the issue here? Canada's government stupidly grandstanding on an issue that its own citizens don't care about?

I think it's incorrect to generalize to the point of saying none of the citizens care. Some care very much, if they happen to still have family there, or family who work there.

But in general, yeah, I'd guess that most of us are probably wondering what's in the drinking water over there, to make Crown Prince Whatsisname turn into Donald Trump and start throwing crazy accusations at us and vastly overreacting in a foot-stomping temper tantrum.

It would actually be funny if there weren't women's lives at stake.

 

[Synobun]

It wasn't "one person posting a tweet," it was a tweet from an official Canadian government account (unlike the threatening 9/11 tweet referenced in the OP).

Still just one person posting a tweet. Canada's involvement in this event was 30 seconds of fat-fingering a keyboard. Very low on the measuring stick of grandstanding.

So it is just whataboutism?

Yeah man. "We're both guilty of this and it's bad" is peak whataboutism. Caught me, you did.

I think I caught the Canadian government in a ruse of caring about human rights.
I do know perfectly well that Canada and the US are friends in this department, the question is whether anyone else does...

You didn't catch anything. Everyone who pays a modicum of attention to stuff like this knows.

 

[Lexicus]

Everyone who pays a modicum of attention to stuff like this knows.

I do wonder how large this group is.

Part of this is because Trudeau wants Canada to be seen as a country that stands by its word, even if that word was given by a Reformacon warmonger with very little regard for women who aren't old-stock Canadians of European ancestry.

This turned up in some of the reporting I saw. I guess "keeping their word" is more important than not aiding and abetting human rights abuses of other states. I suppose that's a position with which I can agree to disagree, but then one wonders why they are sending out tweets implying they care about human rights abuses of other states...

And as mentioned, the people who work at manufacturing these things depend on this for earning a living. People whose livelihood takes a nosedive due to the decisions of a particular federal party/Prime Minister would be less likely to vote for that party.

Can I just tell you how little I care about the livelihoods of people who make a living by building things which are used to murder children?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Can I just tell you how little I care about the livelihoods of people who make a living by building things which are used to murder children?

You just did. My permission was not required. And in fact, I happen to agree with you.

As I said in my post: I was attempting to explain, not excuse.

 

[Synobun]

The part of the Canadian public who come from Saudi Arabia probably care about this (note that I'm talking about those who have become citizens).

I think it's incorrect to generalize to the point of saying none of the citizens care. Some care very much, if they happen to still have family there, or family who work there.

25,000 Saudi-born people living in Canada in 2015. Less than 8,000 are citizens.

A minuscule percentage of 36.29 million.

 

[Lexicus]

You just did. My permission was not required. And in fact, I happen to agree with you.

As I said in my post: I was attempting to explain, not excuse.

I got you fam. I understand we're in agreement on this. It just tickled my fancy to see this thread here when I saw headlines about "doubts about Canada's arms deal with Saudi Arabia" or some such just a few days ago.

But in general, yeah, I'd guess that most of us are probably wondering what's in the drinking water over there, to make Crown Prince Whatsisname turn into Donald Trump and start throwing crazy accusations at us and vastly overreacting in a foot-stomping temper tantrum.

Missed this before - the reference to Canada's citizens not caring was just a rhetorical response to Synsensa's point. I have no idea whether or how much Canadians as a whole care about all this.

 

[Broken_Erika]

The Saudi crown prince POS is just sending a message that they will not tolerate criticism of any kind what-so-ever and will punish those that dare to criticize them.

 

[Lexicus]

The Saudi crown prince POS is just sending a message that they will not tolerate criticism of any kind what-so-ever and will punish those that dare to criticize them.

He's heir apparent to the throne of an absolute monarchy. Why would you expect him to tolerate criticism well? Like plenty of other rich and powerful people he almost certainly grew up with almost everyone around him afraid to tell him "no".

 

[shadowplay]

I can't help but notice the "Streisand effect" at work here. By overreacting to the tweet the way they have, they've drawn exponentially more attention to it.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Its a tweet posted by a Saudi agency that was soon deleted. Treating it as some sort of official position is overreacting a little.

 

[Kyriakos]

I can't help but notice the "Streisand effect" at work here. By overreacting to the tweet the way they have, they've drawn exponentially more attention to it.

Still not enough to be without willing apologists, apparently.

 

[Quintillus]

Slight clarifying point: While the crown prince has been in the news a lot, and is thought to have a decent amount of influence, it's still the king who makes the final calls. So in the optimistic case, the world-class tantrum reflects the king's views, and not what Saudi policy will be for the next 50 years.

Or in American terms, the king is like Donald and the crown prince is like Ivanka. The children have influence and moderate things somewhat, but it doesn't prevent the fathers from making fools of themselves occasionally.

The propaganda is strong with you my son.

Canada isn't leading anything. If they truly were leaders, they wouldn't be begging their allies to help them resolve this little spat between them and Saudi Arabia.

The comment was as much to throw shade at the current U.S. administration as to suggest Canada really had taken over the title of leader of the free world. For all intents and purposes, Germany has done that.

But Canada has been building up a reputation as being willing to speak up for human rights and stand up to Trumpism over the past year and a half. So while they aren't "the leader", and won't be from a military power standpoint, from an influence standpoint they've made it a long way from the Harper era. If Merkel were to lose power, it I'm not sure who would generally be considered the new leader - not May, due to the Brexit. But that's diverging from the main topic.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

25,000 Saudi-born people living in Canada in 2015. Less than 8,000 are citizens.

A minuscule percentage of 36.29 million.

So? The point is that this is an issue that matters to them, and while I personally can't connect to it, I can muster up a scrap of compassion for people whose family members have been unjustly treated by their own government.

I got you fam. I understand we're in agreement on this. It just tickled my fancy to see this thread here when I saw headlines about "doubts about Canada's arms deal with Saudi Arabia" or some such just a few days ago.

There's a lot of back-and-forth about this on the CBC.ca comment pages. A lot of it is just Reformacon shills doing their thing - any anti-Trudeau thing someone can think up, and it becomes that day's assigned talking point.

But I do have to admit that this makes Canada look pretty hypocritical.

Missed this before - the reference to Canada's citizens not caring was just a rhetorical response to Synsensa's point. I have no idea whether or how much Canadians as a whole care about all this.

As a whole? Probably not a lot. The people and groups involved with those connected to Saudi Arabia through family, business, and education? Yeah, they're likely more than a little worried at this point, particularly the students and patients who were here for medical treatment.

 

[Zelig]

Daring move by Canada, from a safe distance...

As has been pointed out, Canada basically hasn't done anything.

We *should* be treating the KSA as we'd treat any modern apartheid state.

Something doesn't compute here

Well the idea is that if the KSA values the deal much, they wouldn't throw hissy fits over tweets.

Canada isn't leading anything. If they truly were leaders, they wouldn't be begging their allies to help them resolve this little spat between them and Saudi Arabia.

lol

You sit there and say you think someone should destroy their military assets, but I bet if your country was the one to do it, you wouldn't even consider picking up a rifle and going to fight. And I don't care how much of a jerk I sound like for saying this, but it takes a pretty big coward to advocate for a war that you aren't willing to go fight yourself.

Funny how cowardice and emotion-free logic look the same to you.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Its a tweet posted by a Saudi agency that was soon deleted. Treating it as some sort of official position is overreacting a little.

A poster on r/toronto made a good point that nothing in Saudi Arabia is expressed without the tacit approval of the monarchy. Even unofficial positions are still positions.

 

[Lexicus]

A poster on r/toronto made a good point that nothing in Saudi Arabia is expressed without the tacit approval of the monarchy. Even unofficial positions are still positions.

Well, that was evidently a post expressed "without the tacit approval of the monarchy" considering that it was quickly pulled and they later tweeted that the Ministry of Media is "investigating" whatever exactly that means.

 

[Synobun]

Well, that was evidently a post expressed "without the tacit approval of the monarchy" considering that it was quickly pulled and they later tweeted that the Ministry of Media is "investigating" whatever exactly that means.

The agency is closed now, IIRC.

 

[Lohrenswald]

perhaps even the kind of thing the United States might have done back when it cared about human rights

lol

 

[Lexicus]

This whole saga has just taken a turn toward the meme, with Saudi Arabia whatabout-ing Canada by slamming Canada's human-rights record, apparently including the case of notable Canadian 'prisoner of conscience', Dr. Jordan B Peterson.