Yeah and that is what would unbalance the game. You would have thousands of years of future tech. And that is very unrealistic. I say, they couldn't make it any more realistic.
capturing airplanes? and airlifting arty
- Thread starter hawkeyepk
- Start date
Yeah and that is what would unbalance the game. You would have thousands of years of future tech. And that is very unrealistic. I say, they couldn't make it any more realistic.
psweetman1590
Emperor
Perhaps because it takes many highly trained and experienced sailors to operate a ship. A Battleship, for instance, would have a crew of over a thousand. Plus, that ship would need a huge amount of supplies in order to function.
The upshot is, it's not realistic to assume that your soldiers walking into the harbor are going to be able to comandeer the ship for themselves. Where are your soldiers going to get trustworthy seamen on short notice? What of supplies? What of all the fuel oil it'll need? A battery of cannons or artillery guns is easy - you simply give it a pile of shells, and assign a few of your strongest men to load the gun, and fire it, and you've got a new addition to your army. A ship is almost an army unto itself.
Plus, historically, captains would wire their ships with explosives, or scuttle the ships rather than allowing them to fall into enemy hands.
Well the army should have those troops ready anyway. There's always free sailors in a large city. I know hundreds of sailors wouldn't just climb in the new ship immediately.
But if the ship is docked in a horbour then sailors would know there's a free ship and you wouldn't have to make a new one. It probably would take a few months before the ship has enough sailors but it's well worth the wait.
And as for the supplies like oil and then, I don't see why it's not possible to load them in the ship in the mean time. Untill some sailors are coming.
I didn't say "allowing them to fall into enemy hands". I know if you shoot it, it will cause damage. But as long as it still floats it is repairable.
But if the ship is docked in a horbour then sailors would know there's a free ship and you wouldn't have to make a new one. It probably would take a few months before the ship has enough sailors but it's well worth the wait.
And as for the supplies like oil and then, I don't see why it's not possible to load them in the ship in the mean time. Untill some sailors are coming.
I didn't say "allowing them to fall into enemy hands". I know if you shoot it, it will cause damage. But as long as it still floats it is repairable.
Pyrrhos
Vae Victis
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If you look at real-life examples:
Captured tanks were regularly put in service if they had any military value. The Germans built Marder tank destroyers on captured French Hotchkiss chassis and had units equipped with Russian T-34s. Both the Brits and the Soviets had units equipped with German Panthers. With tanks, it was only a matter of days or weeks to retrain.
Some captured ships were put in service, others not. A good example of this is HMS Graph, which started out as the Kriegsmarine type XII C U-boat U-570. Of a class of Dutch destroyers building, one, The Isaac Sweers found it's way across the Channel to the Royal Navy while its sister ship Gerard Callenburgh was completed by the Germans and used by the Kriegsmarine under the designation ZH-1. On the other hand, the Germans captured some French battleships and cruisers building, but they were never completed. It would seem that captured small craft and merchanment were regularly put in service whereas larger units were too complex and would consume too much time and resources to contemplate.
Aircraft. Both sides had access to aircraft of various types. Apart from evaluation flights, neither side put one on active, combat duty. Even if Adolf Galland, when asked what he needed to improve his fighter command, reputedly told Goering he wanted Spitfires he never got them.
Captured tanks were regularly put in service if they had any military value. The Germans built Marder tank destroyers on captured French Hotchkiss chassis and had units equipped with Russian T-34s. Both the Brits and the Soviets had units equipped with German Panthers. With tanks, it was only a matter of days or weeks to retrain.
Some captured ships were put in service, others not. A good example of this is HMS Graph, which started out as the Kriegsmarine type XII C U-boat U-570. Of a class of Dutch destroyers building, one, The Isaac Sweers found it's way across the Channel to the Royal Navy while its sister ship Gerard Callenburgh was completed by the Germans and used by the Kriegsmarine under the designation ZH-1. On the other hand, the Germans captured some French battleships and cruisers building, but they were never completed. It would seem that captured small craft and merchanment were regularly put in service whereas larger units were too complex and would consume too much time and resources to contemplate.
Aircraft. Both sides had access to aircraft of various types. Apart from evaluation flights, neither side put one on active, combat duty. Even if Adolf Galland, when asked what he needed to improve his fighter command, reputedly told Goering he wanted Spitfires he never got them.
TheOverseer714
Overseer
Other units than cannot be airlifted include workers, armies, great leaders, and any naval units(ha-ha, of course not!)
Sir_Lancelot
Emperor
Great points made about why not capture modern ships.
However a trireme, or even a frigate could be captured a little more easily. A civilization's army can do anything that a crew of pirates can pull off.
However a trireme, or even a frigate could be captured a little more easily. A civilization's army can do anything that a crew of pirates can pull off.
^ True. Pirates are not usually as advanced as a civ's army. So the civ's army needs to just shoot the pirates out of the ship and they captured it. However, battles are also done with cannons so their is a risk that the ship might sink and you can't capture it.
But, Other civ's armies can also be aboard frigates and trireme's, and that would make the task more difficult.
To be absolutely fair and realstic, I'd say give a ship a 1 in 4 chance of being captured. That way it isn't too unrealistic. That is, of course, if I could remake the game (Which I'm just imagining).
And also I would make it that all ships that are docked in a city, and an army takes that city their docked in, join the civ. Because a ship in a city is usually docked without any crew in it. So that way the army can just claim it without shooting cannons and artillery at it. I know there are some exceptions to this, like ships might be docked and just defending the town. But I have never seen ships docked in harbours with crew in them defending the town. So I would just say that's not completely realistic.
So 100% chance of the ship (If there are any) in the cities garrison to be captured if the city is captured/destroyed by a victorious land army. And about a 33% chance of a ship being sunk in waters to be captured. Not that I can remake this game but this is what i would have done
. I just realised how much I can babble on about something 
.
But, Other civ's armies can also be aboard frigates and trireme's, and that would make the task more difficult.
To be absolutely fair and realstic, I'd say give a ship a 1 in 4 chance of being captured. That way it isn't too unrealistic. That is, of course, if I could remake the game (Which I'm just imagining).
And also I would make it that all ships that are docked in a city, and an army takes that city their docked in, join the civ. Because a ship in a city is usually docked without any crew in it. So that way the army can just claim it without shooting cannons and artillery at it. I know there are some exceptions to this, like ships might be docked and just defending the town. But I have never seen ships docked in harbours with crew in them defending the town. So I would just say that's not completely realistic.
So 100% chance of the ship (If there are any) in the cities garrison to be captured if the city is captured/destroyed by a victorious land army. And about a 33% chance of a ship being sunk in waters to be captured. Not that I can remake this game but this is what i would have done
. I just realised how much I can babble on about something .
psweetman1590
Emperor
If the enemy is near-by, there will be guards, and the ship will be manned.
Furthermore, most crewmen would rather scuttle the ship than surrender it. The only instances where this doesn't happen is where there is particularly poor morale among the crew, or where the aggressor overwhelms the guards so completely and quickly that the crew doesn't have enough time to scuttle the ship. I'll admit that the capture of ships is theoretically possible (though the actual use of said ships would be extremely difficult for reasons already mentioned), but capturing more modern ships is highly unlikely if you're fighting a determined enemy that hasn't completely collapsed yet.
You just don't give up
(Not that I do either 
). Wouldn't an army attack the attackers rather than sitting in their ship all day watching the sun go around? 
I have never seen (In any film or any real life event) an enemy ship just a few metres from shore waiting for an attack In their Ship!! It just doesn't seem realistic.They would either (a) get out and defend the land by hand (What are you going to do in a ship when a land army comes? Through cannons?) or (b) move to a different area with their boat. But because I said docked I mean the ship actually staying in it's coast.
And what does "scuttle" mean?
Of course it's possible to capture ships, even the modern ones. Have you never seen when a helicopter comes and throughs down a rope so the troops can capture the ship? what happens is this...
1. Helicopter loads troops.
2. Helicopter lifts off (Maybe from an aircraft carrier, or from coastal land).
3. Helicopter releseas rope onto enemy ship.
4. Troops go down rope (although, the rope may pull them down automatically instead of them sliding.)
5. Troops come abourd and kill the crew in the ship.
6. If that isn't enough, more troops come from the helicopter and repeat the above steps.
Sashie VII
Balance of Power
I'm beginning to wonder if this discussion will ever end 
And Pyrrhos, I'm
And Pyrrhos, I'm
I'm beginning to wonder if this discussion will ever end
It's only two pages. I've had debate's with psweetman up to 7 pages!!! Of course not all of it was from us talking but still, 7 pages
. And Pyrrhos, I'm
So am I.
Pyrrhos
Vae Victis
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2007
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- 712
"Under Siege" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105690/
Capturing ships from helis only works on film - unless the ship is at anchor or in dead calm seas plus the crew is caught unawares etc.
PS. Scuttle means sinking your own ship, usually to prevent capture (in case your question was genuine)
Capturing ships from helis only works on film - unless the ship is at anchor or in dead calm seas plus the crew is caught unawares etc.
PS. Scuttle means sinking your own ship, usually to prevent capture (in case your question was genuine)
Sir_Lancelot
Emperor
Military vessels have been captured but it is very rare. So rare that I don't see a big need to make it happen in Civ. At least for modern ships, some of them are almost as floating cities. Ancient ships is another matter.
In Civ all vessels in a town is sunk when the town falls. Ancient boats could sometimes be captured, or escape from the town if the enemy force is overwhelming.
Wouldn't it be cool to see some of the carriers and the battleships in the city escape out of the harbour at the moment your army rolls into the city?
In Civ all vessels in a town is sunk when the town falls. Ancient boats could sometimes be captured, or escape from the town if the enemy force is overwhelming.
Wouldn't it be cool to see some of the carriers and the battleships in the city escape out of the harbour at the moment your army rolls into the city?
Pyrrhos
Vae Victis
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2007
- Messages
- 712
Good suggestion Sir Lancelot!
There are some examples of this: The French BBs Jean Bart and Richelieu got out of Brest/St Nazaire just ahead of the advancing Germans and ended up in Casablanca & Dakaar respectively. The Dutch DD Isaac Sweers did the same. The French BB Strasbourg escaped when the British assaulted the French Mediterranean Fleet at Mers-el-Kebir.
However, in the days of sail, it was quite common for defeated vessels to be taken as prizes, repaired and comissioned into the fleet of the victorious side. The Royal Navy was most successful at this, but there was a French Berwick. Even the Russians succeeded on occasion: In 1790, a Swedish ship-of-the-line - Rättvisan - was taken and so proud of their achievement were the Russians that they named a pre-Dreadnought battleship Retvizan.
Probably the last examples of capital ships captured and commissioned into your own navy were a couple of Russian battleships captured by the Japanese at the capitulation of port Arthur and after the battle of Tsushima.
There are some examples of this: The French BBs Jean Bart and Richelieu got out of Brest/St Nazaire just ahead of the advancing Germans and ended up in Casablanca & Dakaar respectively. The Dutch DD Isaac Sweers did the same. The French BB Strasbourg escaped when the British assaulted the French Mediterranean Fleet at Mers-el-Kebir.
However, in the days of sail, it was quite common for defeated vessels to be taken as prizes, repaired and comissioned into the fleet of the victorious side. The Royal Navy was most successful at this, but there was a French Berwick. Even the Russians succeeded on occasion: In 1790, a Swedish ship-of-the-line - Rättvisan - was taken and so proud of their achievement were the Russians that they named a pre-Dreadnought battleship Retvizan.
Probably the last examples of capital ships captured and commissioned into your own navy were a couple of Russian battleships captured by the Japanese at the capitulation of port Arthur and after the battle of Tsushima.
Here's my contribution to this discussion, showing what zerkzees did.
zerkzees capturing stealths
But I think this has been changed for conquests.
zerkzees capturing stealths
But I think this has been changed for conquests.
psweetman1590
Emperor
You just don't give up
They would either (a) get out and defend the land by hand (What are you going to do in a ship when a land army comes? Through cannons?) or (b) move to a different area with their boat. But because I said docked I mean the ship actually staying in it's coast.
And what does "scuttle" mean?
Of course it's possible to capture ships, even the modern ones. Have you never seen when a helicopter comes and throughs down a rope so the troops can capture the ship? what happens is this...
1. Helicopter loads troops.
2. Helicopter lifts off (Maybe from an aircraft carrier, or from coastal land).
3. Helicopter releseas rope onto enemy ship.
4. Troops go down rope (although, the rope may pull them down automatically instead of them sliding.)
5. Troops come abourd and kill the crew in the ship.
6. If that isn't enough, more troops come from the helicopter and repeat the above steps.
No, I don't give up. I find these debates very entertaining as well as mentally stimulating.
Point the First: a unit of soldiers told to guard the fleet in the harbor will do just that. It is not unheard of for the crew of the ship to arm themselves and defend their ship by hand either. Assuming the garrison is completely overwhelmed, the ship will attempt to escape - just because it's docked, as you said, doesn't mean it can't up anchor and move out.
For the ship to be captured, the garrison and crew must be overcome so thoroughly and swiftly that there is no time to escape or scuttle the ship. This is difficult not only in the physical reality of performing such a feat in such a short time (that is, actually being able to kill everyone that quickly), but also that the crew of the ship will almost certainly have had advanced warning and will be prepared to either escape or blow up the ship.
Point the Second: Helicopter capturing ship... not bloody likely.
Sorry, again, while theoretically possible, there are a host of real problems with it. As said, the sea would have to be extremely calm to allow such a stunt. Second, what happened to the ship's radar? Third, even by eye the AA gunners should have had a field day shooting down an incomming heli. Fourth, how many men does a helicopter carry? In large captial ships, there are usually more than a thousand crewmen. Even if only one out of 50 had a weapon, that still makes 20 crewmen with weapons, and around a thousand who can simply rush attackers all at once and overwhelm them before they can all be shot. But then, the heli has a 1 in 10000 chance of escaping detection, not getting shot down, and actually landing men on the deck, to say nothing of the odds of the attackers actually succeeding.I await your inevitable retort.
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