Careful: Your child is probably member of a hate group

[Timsup2nothin]

I think that's kind of the point of the thread

I was summarizing.

 

[Ryika]

Just for fun I googled: how to tell if your kid is a satanist

Here's a list I found:

1. Loss of interest in normal or family activities
2. Drawings depicting mutilations, monsters, or violent symbols
3. Recurring nightmares and difficulty sleeping
4. Change in eating habits, gaunt appearance
5. Writings concerning death, dying, or morbid themes
6. Failing grades and/or distinct changes in study habits
7. An unusual interest in horror films
8. An unusual interest in music with violent/death/suicide themes,
9. Suicidal talk
10. Distinct change in personal appearance and/or hygiene especially dark clothes or makeup, hair style changes, dressing seductively
11. Excessive interest in fantasy role-playing games
12. Hearing voices, paranoia, fears
13. Belief or particular interest in psychic powers
14. Preoccupation with violent thoughts
15. Change in reading materials, interest in the occult, rituals
16. Writing backward, writing mysteriously
17. Development of an attitude of extreme secrecy
18. Aggression toward family, teachers, and authority figures
19. Contempt for traditional religion, anti-God
20. Harming animals – Abrupt change in friends
21. An unusual interest in weaponry.

http://www.cbcmidway.org/2011/01/21...he-occult-elementary-through-high-school-age/

In bold are the things that overlap with that police resource. Apparently, being in a Hate Group and being a satanist overlap a lot.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Sooooo...basically they are saying that every single teenager on the planet is a member of a hate group?

No, just the ones who have a "sudden lack of interest in school."
Oh...wait...yeah.
Every one.

Stop being RACIST you two !
Every NON- Asian kid !!! Because you know Asian, never ending obesseion with learning and scoring high marks

On a more serious note, Dads if your kid is overty hostile to you then you probably did something wrong as a parent or it could really be serious drugs problem that needs to be looked into.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Teenagers are a hate group.


No offense 15 year old German girl with improbable English proficiency.

 

[metalhead]

People are so dense. I swear, the whole purpose of lists like this is to make parents feel better about themselves and let them off the hook for being terrible. "Oh no, it's not that my kid is rebelling against the identity I've created for and tried to force upon him, it's that he's worshiping Satan! The problem is my godless spawn, not my overbearing parenting style!"

This stuff pretty much coaches parents to take the exact wrong approach. The difficulty with teenagers is that they have a lot of the same motivations for their behavior as adults, they just don't yet have the emotional intelligence to express their feelings, or even identify what motivates their behavior. Parents need to be supportive of their kids' search for their own identity, but this nonsense makes it seem like something parents need to confront and stamp out. And we wonder why society sucks

 

[EricTheGreat12]

Well, they're not. Be careful, or else your child might go from changing their appearance and listening to Slipknot and Rammstein (Young kids these days listen to Slipknot and Rammstein, do they not?), to hunting down Jews in your neighborhood.

These band aren't necessarily 'out of touch'. I started listening to Rammstein when I was 16 and I still listen to them on the morning train.

Unless the child/teenager listens to actual Nationalist Socialist Black Metal then of course there might be a certain influence there; however, blaming violence on rock music is a waste of time that makes people sound as if they were evangelicals back in the 1950s.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

It says, specifically, "If your child is involved in a hate group, these early warning signs may be a clue" - which looks to be factually accurate, as long as common sense is applied. If your kid shaves their head in solidarity with a friend who has cancer, that's probably fine. If your kid suddenly sports a shaved head and and is listening to music from wiki's List of neo-Nazi bands, that might be cause for further investigation.

And my point is that five of the quoted warning signs are normal teenage behaviour. Sure, if the kid starts spouting neo-Nazi philosophy, you might just have a problem, but that is not what I am saying here.

As for the point, I think you are missing the whole point of this thread and you're taking this far too seriously. Judging by the other comments in the thread, none of the rest of us are.

 

[Zelig]

And my point is that five of the quoted warning signs are normal teenage behaviour. Sure, if the kid starts spouting neo-Nazi philosophy, you might just have a problem, but that is not what I am saying here.

As for the point, I think you are missing the whole point of this thread and you're taking this far too seriously. Judging by the other comments in the thread, none of the rest of us are.

And I think you're missing the point of the article. I'm positive I'm taking this less seriously than you.

 

[Commodore]

Contempt for traditional religion, anti-God

This one particularly cracks me up. Apparently atheists (and maybe even agnostics) are a "hate group" or satanists now. Also, I love how they are implying that contempt for non-traditional religion (whatever that's supposed to mean) is totally cool and not a sign of being in a hate group or being a satanist at all. So my kids are free to hate and harass Wiccans all they want and I don't have to worry according to this list.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Just for fun I googled: how to tell if your kid is a satanist

Here's a list I found:

Loss of interest in normal or family activities

Happens to everyone at some point, for a myriad of reasons.

Drawings depicting mutilations, monsters, or violent symbols

Oops, beware the cartoonists!

Recurring nightmares and difficulty sleeping

So my recurring nightmares in 1979 were due to me being a satanist, rather than the relentless diet of war and post-apocalyptic material in my high school curriculum that year?

Wow. So that's the reason one of those nightmares resulted in my waking up at 4 am, November 29, 1979 in a panic attack. I was so distraught that my cat became afraid. I didn't calm down until she bit me (not hard; just enough to get me fully awake and aware of what was really going on).

Change in eating habits, gaunt appearance

Could indicate medical issues such as anorexia, diabetes, or cancer. See a doctor for a checkup.

Writings concerning death, dying, or morbid themes

Hm. And to think all these years, I thought @Kyriakos just didn't like cheerful reading material.

Failing grades and/or distinct changes in study habits

Can be for any number of reasons involving stress or medical issues.

An unusual interest in horror films

Do all horror films involve Satan/devil worship? Some people are just into blood/guts/gore and religion isn't part of it. Or they might be, but it's a different religion that doesn't include Satan.

An unusual interest in music with violent/death/suicide themes

This is pretty vague. I assume it means the noise that calls itself "music" that involves "musicians" shouting instead of singing, and it's loud and may also contain misogynistic themes, rather than songs pertaining to either of the world wars, or folk music intended to protest against war.

Suicidal talk

What kind of parent would hear their kid talk about killing him/herself and immediately think "Oh noes, my kid is a Satanist!" rather than take the kid to a counselor to see if depression is going on, or bullying, drug use, or maybe the kid is experiencing uncertainty over his/her sexual orientation or identity?

Distinct change in personal appearance and/or hygiene especially dark clothes or makeup, hair style changes, dressing seductively

This could have any reason from medical/psychological to getting involved in drug use, a girl getting involved in the sex trade, or something as innocent as a weekend at a science fiction convention or comic con.

I often wore a long black dress, black shawl, black shoes, and black cape as my Society for Creative Anachronism costume or at science fiction conventions. I switched out the accessories and footwear as appropriate. Did some people think I was weird? Sure. I did get a few odd looks when I walked down one of the main streets in the shopping district downtown here, but that was on one of the days when we were doing an SCA demo and I was just going over to one of the bookstores. The lady who ran the place had said she'd like to see me in my costume some time, so that was the perfect opportunity.

I don't recall anyone asking if I was a Satanist. One or two asked if I was a Hutterite, though (Hutterite women wear dark-colored tops, skirts, shoes, and black kerchiefs).

Excessive interest in fantasy role-playing games

Yep, had that lecture from my grandmother. She'd watched the "Mazes and Monsters" movie on TV, read a couple of articles, and suddenly she was all worried about what my typing clients and students would think when they came to the house and saw all my Dungeons & Dragons books in the bookshelf in the living room. She was so sure I was getting into magic and witchcraft, so I told her we were going to have a demonstration. She was in her bedroom, and I told her to wait while I went outside for a minute to get some spellcasting stuff (the sleep spell in the Dragonlance series requires either sand or rose petals; I scooped up a little bit of sand from the back alley and some rose petals from the rose bush in the front yard).

When I got back in, I said, "Now just sit there and listen." I did the same movements and actions the spell required, recited the words (from Dragons of Autumn Twilight), and manipulated the components as specified in the AD&D Player's Handbook. My grandmother just sat there and looked at me, and I asked, "Are you asleep?"

She said, "No," and I told her that if Dungeons and Dragons was anything more than just a game, if any of the spells were real, she should have been asleep. "The fact that you are still awake proves that this is only a game and doesn't really work."

She still fussed about the damn books, though, wanting me to move them upstairs. That was the only shelf they'd fit, so I told her I would compromise: I placed a black-and-white drawing of a family of cats in front of them - easily moved when I wanted to use the books.


I got back at her a couple of weeks later. My grandmother was a doll collector, and she also made dolls. Her then-current interest was apple dolls, which are made by peeling and carving doll heads from apples, making bodies for them, and attaching them together once the heads were ready. Part of getting the heads ready involves hanging them up so they turn brown.

So one day my nursing student clients came to the house so I could do another round of term papers for them, and the first thing they noticed was a bunch of little brown carved heads hanging from the kitchen shelves. They were a bit taken aback, so I just shrugged and said, "Oh, I must have forgotten to mention that my grandmother is a headhunter."

Hearing voices, paranoia, fears

Could be a medical issue, or possibly just right-wing paranoia because Justin Trudeau has a new pair of socks (he likes colorful socks, particularly ones with science fiction themes; this is enough for a die-hard Reformacon to post "I fear for my country" on our national broadcaster's news site).

Belief or particular interest in psychic powers

Do they mean psychic powers such as knowing what everyone is thinking and being able to transform one object into another (ie. water into wine)?

Preoccupation with violent thoughts

Could be for many reasons. I have had violent thoughts of what I'd like to do to the so-called plumber who left my kitchen sink and pipes in a leaky shambles last week. Satan is not involved.

Change in reading materials, interest in the occult, rituals

Hm. Like dead people coming back to life three days later? Rituals such as praying to statues?

Writing backward, writing mysteriously

Define "writing mysteriously." I've just been browsing Amazon and happened on what looks to be some interesting reference books on creating languages - a good resource for anyone who writes science fiction or fantasy and wants to create a more authentic setting.

What about speaking mysteriously? There was a houseguest on this season's Big Brother program who would babble in tongues (like the weird stuff in the Jesus Camp videos).

Development of an attitude of extreme secrecy

Oh, so that's why Stephen Harper wouldn't ever tell anyone what was going on, even in his own government and actually refused to allow so many of his party's candidates to attend the election forums in 2011. And to think I thought it was because they would be faced with unscripted questions from the public and wouldn't know what canned answer they were supposed to give.

Aggression toward family, teachers, and authority figures

Define "aggression" - backtalk? Rude language? Swearing? Refusing to obey? Or aggression in the form of serious assault or murder attempts?

Depending on the circumstances these do call for the situation to be addressed, but I rather doubt any of it has to do with satanism.

Contempt for traditional religion, anti-God

And here's the thing that religious people don't seem capable of understanding: Atheists don't believe in God, god, goddesses, spirits, angels, saints, or any other supernatural beings. Satan/Lucifer/the Devil is a supernatural being. We don't believe in him, either.

Harming animals – Abrupt change in friends

Okay, I will go along and say that of everything on this list, THIS IS SERIOUS. People who harm animals often go on to harm humans. Whether or not satanism is part of it... I've seen cases either way. One woman was caught acquiring black kittens, amputating their tails and piercing the small portion that was left, and also piercing their ears and selling them as "goth kittens." Some of them were very sick and/or died from their injuries, because of course this woman didn't take them to a vet (not that any credible vet would have done these abusive things).

Or there's the case of Luka Magnotta, who posted snuff films of himself torturing and killing kittens in a number of gruesome ways. The authorities were begged to arrest him, because something like this is usually just the first step toward killing humans - what would be next - he'd tie a child to a broom handle and drown it? Well, he did go on to murder a human - a Chinese exchange student - and dismembered the body and mailed body parts to various places around Canada... including the Prime Minister and an elementary school in B.C.

An unusual interest in weaponry.

So if a teenager comes home and starts researching swords, it's because he's become a satanist, and not because he might have attended a demo for the Society for Creative Anachronism and is thinking of becoming a heavy fighter? BTW, some ignorant people have spread rumors that the SCA is a satanic organization, when the fact is that while many religions (and atheists) are represented in the members' real lives, the Society's events are mandated to be completely religion-neutral.

On a more serious note, Dads if your kid is overty hostile to you then you probably did something wrong as a parent or it could really be serious drugs problem that needs to be looked into.

Why single out fathers? My mother never clued in that I found her open bigotry to be a reason not to like being around her.

This one particularly cracks me up. Apparently atheists (and maybe even agnostics) are a "hate group" or satanists now. Also, I love how they are implying that contempt for non-traditional religion (whatever that's supposed to mean) is totally cool and not a sign of being in a hate group or being a satanist at all. So my kids are free to hate and harass Wiccans all they want and I don't have to worry according to this list.

Back in the '90s there was an SCA event in Florida where some sort of clash happened between the Wiccan SCA members and some of the general public who were nearby. The SCA is religion-neutral, but at least back then religious ceremonies were allowed as long as they were held privately (as in someone's tent or off in the woods out of view of the rest of the group). The only exceptions generally made were weddings, as lots of SCA folk have been married over the years (the organization is just slightly older than Star Trek and there are now multiple-generation families involved).

After the incident in Florida (that resulted in the SCA people being kicked out of the campsite), word came down from the Board of Directors in California that no more religious services or ceremonies would be allowed at SCA events - including weddings.

Well, we in Canada decided to apply the Admiral Kirk rule: "The word is no. We are therefore doing it anyway" and continued to hold SCA weddings here. But then our region of the Knowne World was all about safety first, and mind your manners. There was one Wiccan ceremony I participated in with a few other SCA people... but we took it well away from the rest. It was a quiet remembrance for someone who had died, and shouldn't have offended anyone.

 

[Synobun]

I think lists like this are good if properly applied.

The issue here is that they are never properly applied and are instead used to fulfill personal biases, biases which are even sometimes present in the people who made the list to begin with.

So things like this should be taken with a grain of salt. Read them, consider them, but don't take them as ironclad gospel.

There's also the problem that many extremists possess similar attitudes and interests, and criminal psychology inherently has a flaw where you are almost guaranteed to never truly grasp the intricacies of a radicalized mind. As a hypothetical, it might be true that 90% of extremists in a wide region share an interest in rural square-dancing. Does that mean square-dancing itself is suspicious? Most probably not. But why is that such a shared interest amongst that group? It's extremely difficult to research this and ascertain what has a legitimate connection and what doesn't.

That leaves you with these lists that tell you to look out for "signs". None of them explicitly mean the worst, and none of them should be treated as claiming such.

 

[Ryika]

But the point is that many of these signs aren't actually "signs" for anything. They're normal behavior of puberty, that many teenagers show. Are they even statistically more prevalent in members of hate groups?

Points like "Changing their appearance." are just way too brought. Because literally EVERYBODY changes their appearance as they go from being a child to more of an adult type of dressing and styling, many teenagers change their styles multiple times over the years. If they had at least added some subtext that further describes what exactly to look out for, how "hate group clothing" generally looks, then it might be a valid point, but that's just meaningless fearmongering for parents who see those perfectly natural things that people do in poverty.

 

[Synobun]

But the point is that many of these signs aren't actually "signs" for anything. They're normal behavior of puberty, that many teenagers show. Are they even statistically more prevalent in members of hate groups?

Points like "Changing their appearance." are just way too brought. Because literally EVERYBODY changes their appearance as they go from being a child to more of an adult type of dressing and styling, many teenagers change their styles multiple times over the years. If they had at least added some subtext that further describes what exactly to look out for, how "hate group clothing" generally looks, then it might be a valid point, but that's just meaningless fearmongering for parents who see those perfectly natural things that people do in poverty.

Many normal behaviours are signs of awful things. A lot of normal childhood behaviours can be signs of sociopathic tendencies, for example.

That's why they are signs and not judgements. They are small pieces of a larger puzzle.

 

[Ryika]

So if a child adopts a new groups of friends, all of which are Anime fans, and staying out late without any explanation, changes their appearance to colorful, bright hair that resembles anime hair, and looses interest in school because they prefer to watch the newest anime all night, then you think parents should keep an eye out for other signs that they might be member of a hate group?

 

[Synobun]

So if a child adopts a new groups of friends, all of which are Anime fans, and staying out late without any explanation, changes their appearance to colorful, bright hair that resembles anime hair, and looses interest in school because they prefer to watch the newest anime all night, then you think parents should keep an eye out for other signs that they might be member of a hate group?

It should be something the parents keep an eye on to make sure nothing awful is going on, yes. AFAIK anime isn't associated with hate groups so I'm not sure why you specifically singled that out, but whatever works for you I guess. The webpage is fairly clear that it's not talking about scene/anime/weeaboo/what-have-you kids.

 

[Ryika]

It should be something the parents keep an eye on to make sure nothing awful is going on, yes. AFAIK anime isn't associated with hate groups so I'm not sure why you specifically singled that out, but whatever works for you I guess. The webpage is fairly clear that it's not talking about scene/anime/weeaboo/what-have-you kids.

Because according to that list, the child is showing 3 signs of being in a hate group. And signs of being a Satanist.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Because according to that list, the child is showing 3 signs of being in a hate group. And signs of being a Satanist.

Some myopic religious people claim pretty much anything they don't like is "satanic."

They'd be in full-blown panic if they saw my place. I have a black cat. I have lots of black cat-themed art and collectibles (ceramics, paintings, drawings, jigsaw puzzles, a set of Egyptian black cat bookends, bookmarks, etc.). I don't hide my Dungeons & Dragons and other FRPG gaming stuff anymore. And I've got four rooms and a hallway full of shelves that are full of science fiction and fantasy books.

There was a time when anyone who admitted to being a Star Trek fan was accused of being in a "cult." My grandmother threw that at me, along with referring to the SCA as a "cult." She kept trotting out "what will the NEIGHBORS think?" when my boyfriend (dressed in his costume of tunic, cloak, and pants) and another guy who was our friend (dressed in a costume of tunic, cloak, and hose) came to pick me up one afternoon for a feast. We had company that day - my grandmother's friend from across the street and an elderly cousin who came for an unannounced visit.

My grandmother's friend had a marvelous sense of humor, and said that if she was younger, she'd like to try some of these things I was into. But my grandmother and elderly cousin put on their most disapproving faces, declared I was involved in a cult, and then went into fits of apoplexy when they saw the guy in the car get out and noticed that he was wearing hose instead of pants. "That boy is wearing a DRESS!!!" was the reaction.

Um, no. He was wearing a tunic and hose, which was perfectly respectable 14th-century garb. If he'd been wearing a dress, it would have been down to the ground, like mine was.

No cults, no satanism. Considering that by that time I was definitely in my "no religion, thanks, I'm atheist" mindset, my grandmother really should have trusted me not to get involved in cults.

 

[Ryika]

Yeah, and the list from the Calgary Police mirrors the signs that aren't really signs for anything other than puberty.

 

[Synobun]

Because according to that list, the child is showing 3 signs of being in a hate group. And signs of being a Satanist.

Signs are signs. Not judgements or definitive claims. Again, AFAIK anime isn't linked to hate groups or Satanism, so that specific example seems suspect. The general premise behind your example, however, where your child is out into the twilight hours without a trace, doesn't care about school anymore, and is generally a shut-in when not mysteriously out and about, seems sound. These are all indeed signs that should elicit some sort of closer inspection from those responsible for the child's well-being. It's an age of making mistakes. These mistakes should be tempered to not have irreparable damage. They don't guarantee that something is amiss but they are signs that this may be the case.

 

[Ryika]

Signs are signs.

Something that can be a sign for literally anything, is a meaningless sign.