Cassiel & The Compact

HE is breaking the compact, i think.

He is an archangeal of agares, and i don't think agares gives a damn about the compact.
 
As I understand it, Thomas is right. But that begs the question: Why aren't the Neutral Gods kicking the crap out of them (Basium & Hyborem) like the Compact says they are supposed to? I thought they were the enforcers.
 
I'm not claiming this to be a definitive answer, but I think the answer lies in the fact that they can't enter Creation without breaking the compact themselves, which makes them vulnerable to the Godslayer, which is currently of unknown whereabouts and quite possibly in the hands of the seemingly immortal and unpredictable Kylorin, who has already offed one of their "brothers". They might simply be too nervous to go themselves.......
 
On the subject of Hyborem:

Is Hyborem a fallen angel? If not, how can he enter creation without breaking the Compact?

Archangels and other true angels enter creation all the time. Basium, Brigit, Cassiel, Taranis, Splendor. Cernunnos was running around in creation during the Age of Ice, though he ascended when he became a god.

It isn't their ability to manifest in creation that is limited, but their powers once they are here. Sabathiel was greatly weakened by his passage through hell and he is recovering in his sanctuary between creation and the vault of Junil.
 
Archangels and other true angels enter creation all the time. Basium, Brigit, Cassiel, Taranis, Splendor. Cernunnos was running around in creation during the Age of Ice, though he ascended when he became a god.

It isn't their ability to manifest in creation that is limited, but their powers once they are here. Sabathiel was greatly weakened by his passage through hell and he is recovering in his sanctuary between creation and the vault of Junil.


But then what stops the Gods from sending Dragons, Angels, and whatever else they conjure up in a bid to dominate Erebus without personally manifesting themselves? I thought that sort of thing was off-limits........
 
But then what stops the Gods from sending Dragons, Angels, and whatever else they conjure up in a bid to dominate Erebus without personally manifesting themselves? I thought that sort of thing was off-limits........

To compact is more complex than a list of do's and don't. Acheron is in Creation and Bhall hasn't broken the compact. The gods have limited effect over creation, but they can still do things, including waking their pets. But in being able to wake one pet does not mean they can send in a wave of thousands. Cernunnos may prefer to bless a grove with trees that produce sacred fruit, Aeron may prefer to release a ebast on creation and mammon may prefer to tempt the souls of men.

I never detailed the exact process. But I always imagined that the gods have a certain amount of infleunce to spend that grows slowly. They could spread it out over a thousand minor effects or produce one major one. Even a god of healing can't heal all of his injured worshippers and would have to choose from thousands of prayers which to fulfill. I heavent really thought much beyond that, but thats how I always imagined it.
 
It sounds from the way the Grigori empire is run that they are mechanically more inclined towards a CE. Would it be more imbalanced to implement some kind of bonus (as xienwolf suggested) to cottages? Or does the fact that polluted GP pools are enough of an impediment to make people actually want to play a CE more when it comes to the Grigori?

Actually I do not really see how Cassiel can ever succeed in his purpose. He seeks to free humanity from the grips of god-worship, yet he has no peaceful means to do so. The only way he can is to impose, martially, his world-view on them through conquest. Spreading this brand of Cassiel-philosophy comes very close to a Crusade, and always the risk of a personality-cult growing around the living angel rears its ugly head. It is almost a vicious cycle.

I did not include the Altar of Luonnotar becaus, flavour-wise, I have no idea what it does. It wins the game, but how? By banishing all the gods from Creation? Opening the window to the One?
 
IIRC, the Altar is supposed to dissolve the empire of the people who build it and unite them with The One, in a sort of nirvana-type existance.

I don't really think though that Cassiel has any plans of imposing his purpose, rather, I am pretty sure he believes that as more and more wars, crusades, death, hardship, etc that religion in Erebus causes, more and more rational people will simply try to escape to his Grigori shelter and leave the Gods behind. It's almost Marxist, in the sense that as long as something doesn't completely destroy or cripple the world, it ought to happen on its own. (except that I think Marx is wrong, and Cassiel might very well be right on Erebus)
 
I actually think it would be difficult for people to leave their faiths or paradigms for Cassiel's and the Grigori's, especially since there are living gods with living angels acting to enforce the worship. A person that has lost his faith might face the wrath of an unhappy god or his angel. Those that leave their lands for the Grigori's appear to be the exception rather than the norm.

Moreover, particular societies make it difficult to leave the herd. I would imagine that even a "good" civilisation like the Bannor would frown on a deviant from the faith, especially since their leader is an actual angel.
 
The more I hear about the world of Fall From Heaven, the more I wish there was a DnD supplement for it. :( Anyway...

Could be interesting to make him an "Anti-Sidar" style. All specialists produce LESS output, but every standard tile is worth an extra production or commerce (I would say food since the value on farming, but that would again lead to many specialists).

It's funny, I was playing as the Grigori earlier today as a result of the first few posts in this thread, and while doing so thought, "You know, the Grigori are the opposite of the Sidar in terms of playstyle." I don't think they need a penalty or additional bonus to reflect Cassiel's dislike of specialists. Adventurers are the Grigori's strength, and so a player will want to get as many as possible. To do this, a player also has to go out of their way to avoid getting Great People. When I play them, I almost never build any Wonders that give free GP, and my people never become specialists; each extra specialist limits my chances of gaining a much needed adventurer.

In reading Kael's description of how their society functions, I think it is a credit to the design of the Grigori in how perfectly they work as a non-specialist society. Of course, the option is still there to build specialists. I think Kael has said before that he doesn't want to force players to play a civilization a certain way (Yay for AV Sabathiel :rolleyes: ), and I think limiting GP production even further for the Grigori would force that play strategy a little too much.

Wolfprint said:
Actually I do not really see how Cassiel can ever succeed in his purpose. He seeks to free humanity from the grips of god-worship, yet he has no peaceful means to do so. The only way he can is to impose, martially, his world-view on them through conquest. Spreading this brand of Cassiel-philosophy comes very close to a Crusade, and always the risk of a personality-cult growing around the living angel rears its ugly head. It is almost a vicious cycle.

I think if anything, that is what bothers me about the Grigori. For a civilization that is praised for their neutrality in the affairs of mortals, they have a very strong offensive army available to them. I find myself forcing my heroes to sit tight for RP reasons, when I could be taking over the world. A mechanic that the Grigori could build (much like the rituals the take away and add to the Armageddon Counter) that discouraged the spread of religion or something would be nice, just so they could succeed at something without the need to go to war.
 
Very true. As I mentioned in the actual D&D games the Grigori didn't have a strong military (in fact most fiefdoms only had volunteer untis, another reason adventurers were so popular). But that would be extremly hard to model in a Civ4 design.
 
Cassiel actually is friends with and has a huge respect for Sabathiel and Brigit. Philisophically he is almost completly opposed to everything Sabathiel believes in (Cassiel doesn't like Junil) but the two have always been odd friends. Cassiel is particuarly impressed with the fact that Sabathiel went into hell to rescue the people trapped there.
Reminds me of my attempt at an entry for Cassiel. Not totally consistent nor exciting, so not good suitible, but I like it anyway:

_____They had not been great friends before coming to this world, but now they shared a commonality unique in the world: having served in heaven, they now "ruled" on earth.
_____“Hello, Sabathiel. You look well, as ever.”
_____“Hello, Cassiel.” They sat in dusty old chairs, giving their surroundings little attention. They met here every year on this date. The two of them, alone, atop a lonely desert sentry tower whether they were currently allies or enemies. Sometimes thier conversations were honest and unguarded; other times they were terse and cordial. “How fare the Grigori this season?”
_____“Oh, some trouble with the horse lords of late.” He took a couple of mugs from his pack, and poured ale into them from a bottle, knowing one would sit empty. “They had quite the force gathered at our borders, until their gods convinced them to withdraw.”
_____“Really? I wasn’t aware the Hippus had acquired a religion.”
_____Cassiel held up a Grigorian coin, engraved with a hawk, free in flight. It reflected a glow from his companion. “Oh yes. They worship the small, shiny ones.”
_____Sabathiel laughed. “And you still maintain that men can find their way without divine assistance?”
_____“I thought we’d agreed to disagree. I’m wasting my people’s lives, your ruining yours.”
_____“Call me an optimist—“
_____“A meddler is more like it.”
_____“…but I still think that I can bring you around. A mortal life is, what, 300 years?”
_____“One hundred for men, if they are lucky.”
_____“It is obscene, an intelligent creature with so short a lifetime. What sense is there to their lives, if you deny them their god-given purpose? Like chaff scattered in the wind, here today, gone tomorrow, and barely remembered once gone.”
_____“An object can achieve a purpose apart from, and greater than, that for which its creator has given it.” Cassiel grew more passionate. “And for men, their very brevity inspires their search for their own purpose. They find it themselves, or search hungrily. Your gods give them an easy answer, but an unsatisfying one, for it is better a man to be an architect in his own life than a mere tool in another.”
_____“All this time, still you do not understand my Bannor men. They are not golems, nor walking corpses. They know the goals of our good gods, and have taken upon themselves their own ways to fulfill them. Our tireless crusade enables little nations such as yours to live unperturbed by the grave evils that threaten this fragile world.”
_____“They have taken upon themselves? Or you upon yourself? What would happen to this world without Sabathiel to save it?”
_____“You have no faith in men, after all your time among them?”
_____“On the contrary, it is you who have no faith in men. I alone would give them a chance to prove themselves.”
_____Sabathiel sighed, recognizing the course the conversation was taking, a course that was like a well-worn rut in the road. “We seem to argue more each year.”
_____“It is the way of this age. There are wars and rumors of wars, famines pass the lands like waves and the earth shakes. With more horrors yet to come.”
_____“That sounds like prophecy. I thought you did not believe in prophecy.”
_____“No, I merely distrust prophets. There is a difference.”
_____“Despite what comes, I pray our … friendship remains.”
_____“Then we might as well part ways now. I don’t think your gods like me very much.”
_____“Hmmm? Oh, no, it was a way of speech. I merely… wish it so.”
_____“Well then, I suppose the coming years will have this, at least, to look forward to, for there is nothing I quite respect like Sabathiel’s will.”
_____“The angel smiled and waved aside the compliment. “What is it your say? A person’s life is as he wills it?”
_____Cassiel chuckled. “Maybe it will be I who brings you around. Though to quote me properly, you should precede that line with 'Gods be damned.'”
_____“Not in this lifetime. Be well, Cassiel.” Sabathiel turned away. He walked to the nearest window and leapt out, unfurling wings of light which carried him quickly out of sight.
_____“And you, old friend. Be well.” Cassiel remained, finishing his ale, before starting down the many flights of stairs.
 
Well, Sabathiel doesn't, and I figured Cassiel would have had some physiological changes upon losing his divine patronage, such as allowing him to digest biological matter.
And I needed something to intersperse between dialogue. It was a first draft, anyway. ;)
 
It is still interesting. A very quiet, reserved conversation that highlights the ideological differences between two persons that, in other circumstances, could have become great friends.

The stuff of legends.
 
Switzerland is a nice example. They're just kinda there, and most good and evil civs leave them alone, because they have such a long history of staying away from everyone's affairs. Attacking them would only be adding a pure obstacle to your cause.

I believe Cassiel will use his powers or wisdom to fight off any evils from the angels, but any natural diseases or evils created by mortals would be completely ignored by him. Similarly, he will offer his advice on fighting off summoned beasts, but will give no help in warding off the masses of orc invaders.
 
Switzerland is a nice example. They're just kinda there, and most good and evil civs leave them alone, because they have such a long history of staying away from everyone's affairs. Attacking them would only be adding a pure obstacle to your cause.

Of course, the problem with Switzerland (and my personal problem with Cassiel's philosophy) is that neutrality only tends to work while the evil (or at least as close to evil as you can get in the real world without getting metaphysical) civs have other enemies to fight. Should the nazis or soviets have conquered and defeated all their enemies in Europe, do you really think they would have simply left Switzerland alone? Money can only pay off an enemy for so long.
 
Besides, if you want lots of Grigori adventurers, you're missing out on a lot of great persons, which can mean anything from slower development to being crushed by a vastly technologically superior army. I tend to get the first 2/3 adventurers and then all my other great persons are run-of-the-mill. And then they have their worldspell, which to me translates to academies everywhere.

Yeah, it's a problem, but hey, Switzerland does have an army, and so does the Grigori, but pathetically weak, sort of. Switzerland had their skirmishers, the Grigori have their 3 adventurer-archmages and 3 adventurer-immortals that can harass and slow down an advancing army.
 
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