Catapults

[Victoria]

You typically have few walls to fight so early but more to the point a tower is not on the path to machinery.

 

[JustifierNA]

So, would you prefer to build catapults over battering rams/siege towers or both? Are we talking about multiplayer (vs humans, who are more clever defenders & might try to hinder your battering ram/units to reach their city) or also singleplayer?

Game type both, which would I use? I use all of the above. Im far more likely to use rams than towers due to their position on the tech tree but towers are far better than rams because great generals give them +1 movement.

Clever antics do not work as long as you prepare properly. You should time all your units to slam into the wall in 1 turn rather than meandering along 1 at a time but when done properly... Heh you can use the ram to 1 turn drop the walls then catapults to drop the city hp to 30-50% on the same turn

But this post isn't about rams/towers its about catapults

(also I primarily play Multiplayer because I find AI completely hopeless even on the most "difficult" setting but I test all my strategies on diety AI before using them in the Multiplayer setting and I promise you, militaristically speaking, however good a certain strategy is in Multiplayer it's worlds better in Single player simply due to the extreme stupidity of the AI)

 

[JustifierNA]

When we talk about whether a unit is cheap or expensive, we are talking about how they compare to other units. Obviously every single unit will benefits from these modifiers.

A catapult costs 120 prod points.
A battering ram costs only 65, and will affect every single chariot (eventually knights, assuming you conquered territory with iron with your chariots) attacking the city. And it doesn't have to wait to attack, disregarding whether you have a GG or not (trying to get an early GG on deity completely conditions your early game, btw, and it's not always doable).
Later on, a siege tower is 100 prod points, still cheaper than a catapult.

And on SP the AI will always bombard the catapult, while the units escorting the ram/tower will be ok as long as you bring a ranged unit (archer/crossbow) behind, as a bait for the initial city bombardment.

So considering both production, movement and healing time, support units are always better than catapults.

Eh depends on the specific situation you're facing in a game. I never said that either rams or towers were in any way bad OR better since in Civilization there isn't a specific unit or tactic which is "better". Everything in each individual game is completely unique and that is why I find this game so addicting. I do say that catapults not only viable but an extremely strong military unit for usage in MOST situations and I know for certain that they're not only viable on deity but quite necessary to maintain early warfare versus the extreme bonuses which the AI receive.

As for which I build I use them all BUT I use catapults far more than I use towers AND I use rams more than catapults. If they're not necessary, I'm not using any.

The production cost and bonuses is simply an example of a way to effeciently produce them should the specific situation require it. Also it's important to note its much harder to kill catapults than rams due to their proximity to the city than support seige units and the fact that they do not take damage when attacking unlike a support seige units escort.

That Catapults are targeted first should be taken quite seriously, when used correctly they're far more powerful and have a much higher value in your campaign as with the required technology and upgrades they grow only more powerful and influential but the funny thing is, when used correctly there will be no walls for the city to bombard with to remove the catapult and when you utilize the rest of your units correctly ranged units will not be a problem for them either.

In regards to getting a Great General on deity to influence my Classical era units, I have NEVER not gotten the first great general on deity level. AI are hardwired to focus Religion first. NOT military, and so getting the first great general is laughably easy.

 

[JustifierNA]

That's the problem here. The discord guide is obviously heavily influenced by multiplayer/human enemies, so great generals/encampments are very important. It could be that against human enemies catapults are much better because you will have problems to approach the city.

In single player I personally like battering rams over catapults for cost effectiveness reasons.

While I appreciate the advertisement currently the Discord Guide does not include units, nor specific militaristic strategies in regard to either single or multiplayer.

Also I actually tend to value Military EVEN MORE in single player than multiplayer simply due to the vast quantity of units which deity AI can spam at you. I will have Iron working by turn 22 just to upgrade 1-2 warriors into swordsmen for the city defense in all of my AI games for this very reason.

 

[Arent11]

While I appreciate the advertisement currently the Discord Guide does not include units, nor specific militaristic strategies in regard to either single or multiplayer.

It does You say it yourself, the ai is not really clever. Many players in single player focus on efficiency, gold (commercial hubs) or science (campuses). They simply don't build encampments or only later on.

 

[JustifierNA]

It does

Currently my guide does not cover units nor strategies, while the basic tips/tricks section does mention two or three units, the group as a whole are not covered in detail and so I do not consider them "covered", when you go to the Units section it says "Coming soon". As for specific strategies that will be detailed under "War" and specific eras: "Ancient Era" "Classical Era" etc.

And Commercial hubs are extremely high priority for me (which you can see in the basic tips and tricks section) however I still put TONS of value on the first great general regardless the situation and so getting out one encampment early is top priority.

 

[Victoria]

@JustifierNA can you provide a link to your guide?

 

[JustifierNA]

@JustifierNA can you provide a link to your guide?

You can find it Here , Keep in mind it's a working guide and I work on it in my free time (usually on requested sections) and though there's a lot of information there already there's tons to go

 

[Victoria]

and though there's a lot of information there already there's tons to go

Yup, I wrote the culture victory guide and its still missing stuff despite being big.
Anything you do not know the answer to I may be able to help with?... I like digging into stuff...
Just posted this little gem - https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/cs-lib-envoy-spam-do-they-get-more.619306/

 

[JustifierNA]

Yup, I wrote the culture victory guide and its still missing stuff despite being big.
Anything you do not know the answer to I may be able to help with?... I like digging into stuff...
Just posted this little gem - https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/cs-lib-envoy-spam-do-they-get-more.619306/

Culture... that's a monster I don't want anything to do with any time soon haha I can win a cultural victory but it's tough for me to I'll read over your culture victory guide, and if you'd be okay with it I could corporate it into my own

 

[DrCron]

in Civilization there isn't a specific unit or tactic which is "better"

In pretty much every forum here (since years before CIV 6 was even launched) the strategies that work well more frequently and can deliver a faster victory on Deity are considered "better".

they're not only viable on deity but quite necessary

No, they are absolute NOT "necessary". I literally never build them and never lost an offensive war.

it's important to note its much harder to kill catapults than rams

No it's not. Rams should always stay with a healthy melee unit at the end of the turn, which is very easy to achieve if you move your units correctly. And city bombardment will NOT prioritize them.

when used correctly there will be no walls for the city to bombard with to remove the catapult

As said before, if you don't have the GG (or even if you have it but the terrain is bad for movement) you HAVE to give the city 1 turn to bombard you before using the catapult. Oh, and I didn't even mention the visibility issue with the catapult, that doesn't affect rams/towers either.

I will have Iron working by turn 22 just to upgrade 1-2 warriors into swordsmen for the city defense in all of my AI games

1st of all, you absolutely do not need to do this. You should be able to defend with warriors and archers. Even more, if the closest AI city is still unwalled, you might be able to TAKE IT with just warriors and archers (though chariots work better for this, ofc). 2nd, what happens if you don't have any iron, you just lose the game?

getting out one encampment early is top priority

I can win a cultural victory but it's tough for me

These 2 go well together. Putting so much emphasis on encampments early completely conditions your early game, as I said before. You pretty much have to go for domination after that, because you won't have enough room for the districts that you need for other victory types soon enough. And don't expect the AI to build nearly enough theatre squares or commercial hubs, they don't prioritize them at all.

 

[Victoria]

Also I actually tend to value Military EVEN MORE in single player than multiplayer simply due to the vast quantity of units which deity AI can spam at you

SP is quite a different game, you gan do huge amounts of damage fast with a limited amount of good troops. It also helps encourage the AI to declare against you ... size does not matter against the AI... they are all just pin cushions.
You can civic all you like but a science push is far ore effective for a fast win because having 20 cities by T100 is just OP. After than its your efficiency in getting to that last turn.
I am not an MP player but there does seem to be a rather large difference in playstyle.... Its very rare encampments are built although I tend to build 1. SP is more about understanding the AI and using that to your favour.

For example last game I settled on Mercury and on turn 6 trajan got the sandals of the prophet. I traded my mercury for his sandals and 6 GPT , he had 3 luxes and only 4 cities at the time.. now lets see an MP player agree to that.

 

[PYITE]

In regards to getting a Great General on deity to influence my Classical era units, I have NEVER not gotten the first great general on deity level. AI are hardwired to focus Religion first. NOT military, and so getting the first great general is laughably easy.

This is a major reason why I currently play without religion in my games. Not only is getting the first great general a given but getting the second is pretty easy as well. The game is basically won at that point.
When the AI can't build holy sites, great general competition is fierce and usually requires you running 2 projects in order to get the first GG, but if you don't get a good start with production and eurekas, even that may be futile.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

When the AI can't build holy sites, great general competition is fierce and usually requires you running 2 projects in order to get the first GG, but if you don't get a good start with production and eurekas, even that may be futile.

Don't build encampment and run project yourself, since therefore you'll have no hammer for army. Try to Capture a militaristic minor civ with encampment, or an Ai city with an encampment, and use +2 GG point policy.

 

[Victoria]

I wish I could permanently turn religion off.

 

[PYITE]

Don't build encampment and run project yourself, since therefore you'll have no hammer for army. Try to Capture a militaristic minor civ with encampment, or an Ai city with an encampment, and use +2 GG point policy.

On Diety, those options will take to long in most cases. It is a completely different game when all of the AIs can't waste any production on religion. Early rushes are mostly ineffective because the AI is producing units quicker then you can kill them. They have encampments and walls super quick because of their bonuses. The competition for getting the first great general is similar to trying to get the first great prophet (Stonehenge not included).

It's also common for the AI to the buy the medieval/ renaissance GGs.

 

[PYITE]

It only takes 2 simple lines of code to basically remove religion. There will still be a Stonehenge religion that will only have 2 beliefs so turning off religious victory is advisable because it turns out passive religious spread is pretty powerful when there is only one religion. I use it in my own personal mod that I can add or remove elements from. I would post it as a downloadable mod but I don't know how. Here is the code I use:

UPDATE Districts SET PrereqTech= 'TECH_ROBOTICS', PrereqCivic= NULL WHERE DistrictType= 'DISTRICT_HOLY_SITE' ;

UPDATE Districts SET PrereqTech= 'TECH_ROBOTICS', PrereqCivic= NULL WHERE DistrictType= 'DISTRICT_LAVRA' ;

 

[zxcvbob]

If you don't mod anything but just turn off religious victory, do the AI's still go missionary-crazy? The vast swarms of religious units clogging up the board (especially when they invade battlefields) is the only part of the religious game that really bugs me.

I tend to spend most of my faith buying military units (Theocracy), or in the late game buying great people. I don't like to waste it on missionaries; just buy a couple of apostles and some inquisitors.

 

[Victoria]

Nice @PYITE did not think of that way.. I think I know the XML file I think, would rather change it there

 

[PYITE]

If you don't mod anything but just turn off religious victory, do the AI's still go missionary-crazy? The vast swarms of religious units clogging up the board (especially when they invade battlefields) is the only part of the religious game that really bugs me.

I tend to spend most of my faith buying military units (Theocracy), or in the late game buying great people. I don't like to waste it on missionaries; just buy a couple of apostles and some inquisitors.

No, this is the only way I have found to squash the AI's religious fervor.
Besides making the AI more challenging it also frees the map up of all the religious units. I thought it might nerf some of the AIs with religious abilities but they seem to perform better as well. Russia is very difficult to contend with because they tech up much faster, watch out for the early arrival of Cossacks. Scythia is a powder keg waiting to explode on you because they use all of their Kurgan faith buying military units.