Cathedrals in ffh?

[Nikis-Knight]

They sound like a great idea to me, and I'm not sure why they were removed.

The team wanted each to give some unique effect, but in the end the effects weren't all interesting. They got cut a few versions after implementation, as Kael likes to simplfy regularly and no one was a great fan at the time. Some of the effects were folded over into other places, like the extra spawn chance for one Treeants in one of the fellowship cathedrals. I wouldn't mind seeing a second look at them.

 

[Perkin Warbeck]

OO gives most happines, and FoL gives most culture. It should be reversed.

However, now a standard FoL temple gives additional health, OO is the most culture focused from the temple bonuses, perhaps the temples should follow the same lines that the base ones currently do?

 

[Alzara]

My thinking was that FOL gets a lot of happiness from forest anyway. Wouldn't it be a little unbalencing to provide more from a "cathedral"?

Any thoughts?

Al

 

[A_Hamster]

My thinking was that FOL gets a lot of happiness from forest anyway. Wouldn't it be a little unbalencing to provide more from a "cathedral"?

Any thoughts?
Al

Give them something nature-related, like an increased chance Treants appear in nearby Ancient Forests when hostiles enter, or a +2 EXP bonus to Recon units built in the city. (Or just a free Woodsman I promo).

An Order Cathedral should grant military or civics bonuses. The Temple already grants +10% miltary production: how about the Order Cathedral giving an additional -25% to city maintenance?

Empyrean: Free Sentry promo to Disciple units (representing the all-pentrating light of the Unconquered Sun.) Alternately, the Empyrean emphasizes compassion over rigid enforcement of moral principles, so a Happiness boost is appropriate.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

How about instead of making treant spawnings more likely, the FoL Cathedral increases the units duration, and/or gives some free promotions (nature magic, ability to plant forests)

Reducing maintenance wouldn't be very useful, as Order buildings and civics already allow you to reach 0 maintenance (plus the Prior's spell eliminates maintenance in the city). I'm thinking that it should grant the inquisitor promotion (which should be harder to get). I'm also adding the great military instructor from warlords/BtS (and letting great commanders settle as them), and making this building provide them as free specialists (so, basically free xp. I may also make these specialist provide +1 commander GPP so it will make sense not to just give the xp directly)


Sentry itself might be weak, as it is easy to get and already granted by a wonder. Some new promotion that boosts line of sight and lets you see invisible too could be nice. Maybe one that auto-casts revelation?



Would it be too strong if some cathedrals boosted the yields/commerces of certain specialists in all cities? If you could build them in every city it certainly would, but there could be higher number of temple prereqs to compensate. I forget, can you give these boost in just one city? It would make sense for the Empyrean to give priests +1 , for example. Maybe Order cathedrals would boost from military instructors.

I still like the idea of having multiple, mutually exclusive versions. I'm also not opposed to UBs for the thematically appropriate civs, or alignment restrictions for those religions that can be used with multiple alignments.

 

[A_Hamster]

Sentry itself might be weak, as it is easy to get and already granted by a wonder. Some new promotion that boosts line of sight and lets you see invisible too could be nice. Maybe one that auto-casts revelation?

That would be better; I just did not want to make the Empyrean Cathedral too potent, but if a new Revelation-type promo would not be unbalancing, then great. (I'm on my third game, and I am developing a preference for the Empyrean. Having the Vicars cast Revelation every turn when sharing borders with the Svartalfar is useful. "Why, hello there Alazam!")

If a Revelation-type promo seems too strong, it could be limited to just a single unit class. Disciples, for one, or perhaps Recon. (The Vicars are teaching the Rangers what the subtle telltale signs of corruption are, so the Rangers now know what to look for.)

Would it be too strong if some cathedrals boosted the yields/commerces of certain specialists in all cities? If you could build them in every city it certainly would, but there could be higher number of temple prereqs to compensate. I forget, can you give these boost in just one city? It would make sense for the Empyrean to give priests +1 , for example. Maybe Order cathedrals would boost from military instructors.

Don't remember if you can isolate it to just one city, but it ought to be in the XML. Although the effect should be limited to the city the cathedral anyway: a wonder like Angkor Wat applies the bonus globally since it is defined that way in the XML.

It seems that if the building is only in one out of every three cities and has a high Hammer cost it should not be gamebreaking. (And the temple prereq could be raised from the standard civ default of three.)

I still like the idea of having multiple, mutually exclusive versions. I'm also not opposed to UBs for the thematically appropriate civs, or alignment restrictions for those religions that can be used with multiple alignments.

Agreed. More flavor. And from a gameplay viewpoint, I miss having the culture and happy boost for my largest cities that vanilla civ Cathedrals provided.

 

[xienwolf]

Personally I'd like to see the Cathedrals address the weakness of the Religion in some manner rather than emphasizing the strengths, since most of them have their strength nearly capped out anyway.

 

[Alzara]

Addressing the weaknesses is a good idea. The problem I can forsee is that you'd have to balance very large bonuses to offset the weaknesses in order to make these buildings worthwhile to build.

As it stands, my suggestions are more powerful in general than the "normal" civ 4 cathedrals so there is room to add negatives to bring them in line with the "normal" cathedrals. What do you propose for such modifications Xien?

I'll have a think on the idea when I've got some free time

Any other ideas in the mean time?

Al

 

[xienwolf]

Well, a weakness of FoL would be Fire. So if their temple could eliminate the Flammable tag from all tiles in the BFC for that city that would be quite nice.

Unfortunately I am quite lacking for ideas of what the weaknesses are of the other religions though I guess RoK is pretty shy on Culture, but that's a pretty lame reason to go off and build something extra for unless it gives a REALLY big boost. Hadn't really thought of any ideas TBH, just tossing a possibility to consider

 

[Perkin Warbeck]

I think a weakness of RoK is needing gems for the priests. You're more likely to have some incense kicking around than gems, otherwise they're not really lacking in any aspect- but couldn't you say the same for many of the other religions?

 

[Bad Player]

I think this was basically how Advanced Temples worked a long time ago. Each civ had 2 versions with unique abilities, and you could not build both in the same city.These were removed in version .16, so I've never actually played with them. They sound like a great idea to me, and I'm not sure why they were removed.


I'm planning to reimplement advanced temples in my modmod, similar but not identical to how they were originally. For example, one Order advanced temple will grant the Inquisitor promotion (which will have higher prereqs in my modmod) to all disciple units built there.


copied from my (outdated) Future Additions/Considerations for Later Versions post in my my modmod thread:

Spoiler :

I'm reimplementing advanced temples, largely copying from the old implementation:

Obviously I wouldn't implement the building with the same name as a current wonder. I think I'll come up with new advanced temples for OO, and will consider changing all the others.

The Empyrean's advanced Temples:

Circles of Charity: (focuses on those who live out their philosophy for the good of all, caring for and education those less fourtunate)
+3 happy, +4 healthy
+10% GPP
-5 trade
+10% maintenance
-10% crime

Agora of Truth: (focus on philosophical discussions of deep matters at the expense of needed action)
-60% military production
+10% war weariness
+1 research per priest in city, +2 per great prophet
+1 culture per sage in city, +2 per great sage


Esus buildings are a little different: they are built by spells in rival cities

Councils of Treason:
has a chance of making the city go into anarchy each turn
the spell has a small chance of accidentally making the caster declare war on the cities owner


Black Market:
+2 trade routes
half of the city's gold is divided between all undercouncil members

I'm open to suggestions about how best to implement these.

I think the black market for the undercouncil should be a votable resolution so that you can make it work very well if everyone does it (maybe make it give more than 2 trade routes though?).