Catholicism is polytheistic

[Phlegmak]

Before I get started, let me define some words:

1. god: A supernatural creature which can respond to prayers, or similar magic incantations. The supernatural creature in question can perform actions on Earth, typically as a result of prayer.
2. prayer: A request to a god to perform some action. Basically, it's a spell. If not used as a spell, it is act of worship.

I've mentioned that Catholicism is a polytheistic religion many times in the past, on this forum and others. The responses are always negative to my premise. So here is my position:

A. Reasons to believe it's polytheistic:
1. 3 gods, supposedly joined as one. You have 3, with individual names.
2. Many lesser gods, such as Mary, all of the Saints, and Satan.
3. All of the lesser gods mentioned in #2 can be prayed to, and the prayor can expect a positive reward (which is the usual purpose of prayer). This is what makes the people mentioned in #2 gods.
4. Catholics who pray to Saints erect statues in honor of those Saints, basically idolizing the Saints as lesser gods.

B. Reasons to believe it's monotheistic:
1. Historically, Catholics have been tremendously violent and intolerant of other religions, which is consistant with monotheistic religions.
2. Catholics strongly profess that their religion is monotheistic.
3. Catholics believe that the prayers to gods that aren't the #1 god, are actually intercessory.


So now, I must say that polytheism isn't something that should be considered insulting. I honestly don't see why Catholics should find my statements above insulting.

 

[skadistic]

Mary is not a lesser god.

 

[Warman17]

1. Historically, Catholics have been tremendously violent and intolerant of other religions, which is consistant with monotheistic religions.

The romans looked down upon anyone who didnt agree with their view of the gods, besides the greeks of course. See: Christianity.

 

[Zarn]

First of all: Sorry, but I hear this way too often.

Okay, now for serious

1) If they are joined as one. It makes it one god.

2) Those people (and angel) are simply not gods.

3) Those people (except Satan) turn around and ask god. Not all Catholics pray to saints, anyway.

4) If a statue of George Washington was built, would you worship it?

 

[Truronian]

I don't see Catholicism as polytheistic much in the same way that I don't see Hinduism as polytheistic.

 

[puglover]

Before I get started, let me define some words:

1. god: A supernatural creature which can respond to prayers, or similar magic incantations. The supernatural creature in question can perform actions on Earth, typically as a result of prayer.
2. prayer: A request to a god to perform some action. Basically, it's a spell. If not used as a spell, it is act of worship.

Is asking your father for a glass of water a spell? Prayer is conversation with God, not a magic spellbook.

I've mentioned that Catholicism is a polytheistic religion many times in the past, on this forum and others. The responses are always negative to my premise.

Count me with the negatives.

So here is my position:

A. Reasons to believe it's polytheistic:
1. 3 gods, supposedly joined as one. You have 3, with individual names.

The members of the Godhead, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, share such motivation and such love, that they actually bound together into one being. It's impossible from a human perspective, but God isn't bound by our physical limitations.

One God, three distinct, eternal persons.

2. Many lesser gods, such as Mary, all of the Saints, and Satan.

They are not lesser gods.

3. All of the lesser gods mentioned in #2 can be prayed to, and the prayor can expect a positive reward (which is the usual purpose of prayer). This is what makes the people mentioned in #2 gods.

The saints alone cannot grant requests. Catholics believe that they make an intercession to God, as only he can grant prayers.

4. Catholics who pray to Saints erect statues in honor of those Saints, basically idolizing the Saints as lesser gods.

People honor great heroes with statues all the time. Are they lesser gods now?

B. Reasons to believe it's monotheistic:
1. Historically, Catholics have been tremendously violent and intolerant of other religions, which is consistant with monotheistic religions.

Many polytheistic and nontheistic religions can be used for evil as well. This has nothing to do with anything.

2. Catholics strongly profess that their religion is monotheistic.

It's their religion. Why don't you listen to us?

3. Catholics believe that the prayers to gods that aren't the #1 god, are actually intercessory.

Exactly. They aren't lesser gods.

So now, I must say that polytheism isn't something that should be considered insulting. I honestly don't see why Catholics should find my statements above insulting.

You are denying their God is one. Plus, you say you posted this on multiple boards. You weren't convinced the first time?

 

[skadistic]

I'm not even catholic anymore but it irks me to no end when people claim that catholics worship saints and see mary as a lesser god. Its just not true.

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

Never thought I'd find myself on this side of the fence, but I don't believe it's Polytheic.

There is only 1 god in it, and Mary, John, Jesus, & the other people are saints. Held in high regard, but not worshipped as gods. Even calling them Demigods like Hercules (in Greek Mythology) would be a stretch. MAYBE Jesus could be considered a demigod, but people don't really worship him as such.

 

[SeleucusNicator]

Obviously it does not consider itself Polytheistic, and it has a semi-complex explanation for why aspects of Catholicism that look and feel very polytheistic are actually still monotheistic.

But that aside, I agree that from an objective prespective, Catholicism is functionally polytheistic.

 

[Masquerouge]

Catholicism is monotheistic because all of the catholic teachings, from the beginning, say so.
You can twist and turn definitions all you like, but in the end, catholics believe in one God only.

What I honestly do not understand is how you can seriously believe that your position is stronger than a 2,000-year-old accumulation of teachings and analysis.

 

[puglover]

Never thought I'd find myself on this side of the fence, but I don't believe it's Polytheic.

There is only 1 god in it, and Mary, John, Jesus, & the other people are saints. Held in high regard, but not worshipped as gods. Even calling them Demigods like Hercules (in Greek Mythology) would be a stretch. MAYBE Jesus could be considered a demigod, but people don't really worship him as such.

Mary and John are not Gods, right. But Jesus is God. He's more than a demi-god, as he's part of the Trinity himself, and Catholics do worship him.

 

[SeleucusNicator]

I'm not even catholic anymore but it irks me to no end when people claim that catholics worship saints and see mary as a lesser god. Its just not true.

Catholics do pray to and venerate figures other than their main deity. This is why the religion is functionally polytheistic, even if the mechanism by which Catholics claim that prayer to saints works is theologcally monotheistic.

 

[puglover]

Catholics do pray to and venerate figures other than their main deity. This is why the religion is functionally polytheistic, even if the mechanism by which Catholics claim that prayer to saints work is theologcally monotheistic.

It's not the same kind of prayer as prayer directly to God. Catholics believe they can call upon the saints to make an appeal to God on their behalf. They don't believe the saints are God, just that they have a special connection to God that they themselves don't.

 

[SeleucusNicator]

It's not the same kind of prayer as prayer directly to God. Catholics believe they can call upon the saints to make an appeal to God on their behalf. They don't believe the saints are God, just that they have a special connection to God that they themselves don't.

Yes, you don't need to tell me that, I went to Catholic School for 8 years and used to believe it myself.

Again, I am making a distinction between functionally polytheistic and theologically polytheistic. Catholicism functions as a polytheistic religion, but has a theological mechanism by which it can claim that this polytheistic activity is actually monotheistic.

 

[Masquerouge]

Catholics do pray to and venerate figures other than their main deity. This is why the religion is functionally polytheistic, even if the mechanism by which Catholics claim that prayer to saints works is theologcally monotheistic.

Technically it would be polytheistic only if saints were gods. They're not. I agree that what we might need is another term than -theistic.

 

[puglover]

Yes, you don't need to tell me that, I went to Catholic School for 8 years and used to believe it myself.

Again, I am making a distinction between functionally polytheistic and theologically polytheistic. Catholicism functions as a polytheistic religion, but has a theological mechanism by which it can claim that this polytheistic activity is actually monotheistic.

Sorry, mate. Fair enough.

 

[SeleucusNicator]

Technically it would be polytheistic only if saints were gods. They're not. I agree that what we might need is another term than -theistic.

Well, whatever they call them, they do believe that saints are more powerful than regular humans (e.g., have more influence with god, otherwise it would be a waste of time to pray to them). That's all that's needed to become a lesser deity in many polytheistic religions.

 

[Turner]

I'm not even catholic anymore but it irks me to no end when people claim that catholics worship saints and see mary as a lesser god. Its just not true.

Common misconception. Catholics pray to the saints, and hold Mary in a higher esteem (and pray to her as well). To someone not of the church, it very much looks like they worship the saints and Mary. However this is plainly not true. Asking for help is a lot different than giving worship to.

But even as a Catholic I thought that catholics were polythestic. God, Junior and the Spook (okay, okay, Jesus and the Holy Ghost (and ten points to the first to understand the reference.)) are certainly 3 incarnations of the same 'person'. But in three different places at the same time. So I've always seen it as three seperate entities, not 3 aspects of the same entity.

 

[Masquerouge]

Well, whatever they call them, they do believe that saints are more powerful than regular humans (e.g., have more influence with god, otherwise it would be a waste of time to pray to them). That's all that's needed to become a lesser deity in many polytheistic religions.

I think we agree, it's just that I use polytheist in its strictest sense.

 

[Stegyre]

Before I get started, let me define some words:

As long as you can define the terms, you can win any debate!

However, you won't convince anyone who does not agree with your definitions. (q.v. all of the above)

By definition, you essentially have designated Mary and all the (Catholic) Saints as "gods." As a religion is polytheistic if it has more than one god, sure: if we call Mary and all the Saints gods, Catholicism is polytheistic under your definitions. But none of the Catholic or formerly-Catholic posters appear to agree with your definition of "god." I doubt [m]any Christian posters do.

Under your definition, Satan, Lucifer, the Devil, devils, demons, etc., are also "gods": supernatural creatures that can be invoked and can affect our world. Thus, any Christian religion acknowledging his/her/its/their existence is "polytheistic." Polytheism just requires a belief in multiple deities, not the worship of all of them.

At this point, it should be apparent that your definition isn't too useful. We can probably make just about any religion "polytheistic," which makes that label meaningless.