Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

[Thunderbrd]

Currently Air units cannot cause 100% damage to ships at sea, but can bomb ports to sink ships. This is the opposite of real air warfare. No ship was ever "sunk" by aircraft while in port. Of the 7 battleships in Pearl Harbor, 5 of them were back in service before 6 months, and the other 2, Arizona and Pennsylvania, were not "Sunk" meaning go down beneath the surface, but were just so damaged were considered not repairable. However, Prince of Wales, Repulse, Akagi, Kaga, Yamato, etc, these were all SUNK at sea by aircraft and only aircraft.
Can Air units be changed to allow 100% damage to ships at sea, but make it over 100% damage, but not destroyed, still repairable for ships in port? This allows you to cause so much damage that it will take many turns to repair that ship back to use, and perhaps put a cap of 300% for totally destroyed if in port.
And so aircraft will not be over powered, have it be a 5% chance to sink the ship at sea, otherwise just the damage cap

Ships that have received damage should have their speed reduced by that same damage %. If your ship is burning and listing heavily, you are not going to be doing 30 knots, you might even need a tow. Ships damaged past 60% should have a chance every turn to receive addition damage, fires out of control, flooding, etc. and a small chance to sink.

March and the ship equivalent Damage Control, as well as resting out in the open, should not bring a unit back to full health, but only a max of 80% health, only a rest in a city or fort should be allowed to bring them back to full health. Only in a city can you get the troops, weapons and materiel to bring that unit or ship back to full strength.

100% damage is a destroyed unit... period. So sunk is sunk either in a harbor or out of it. Some of the ideas to manipulate things there seem like complexities that could just outright confuse players rather than add to the realism.

BUT I do like the observation that perhaps planes should be able to finish off their targets if possible. One thing though... I'd hate to actually USE that ability if we enabled it because it'd deny one of the XP they could get on a naval unit by using that unit to finish off the other. So I kinda appreciate sending my stack of planes to attack a naval target only to have them stop once the target is now otherwise crippled but not quite dead yet so it can be finished off with earning an xp for one of my ships.

Speed reduction on damage and ongoing fires on the ship should be pretty nicely expressible via the new Criticals methods. We can otherwise assume the ship is pretty much functionally operational but the crew and hull integrity is what has suffered. But perhaps I need to give some consideration to how a Crit can be received from a bombard/air raid still. And maybe Crits should be more likely in naval, vehicular, and mechanical combats as they would reflect the physical breakdown of the machine in far more defined terms than simply damage. For more info on this, check out the C2C Combat Mod Introduction - Step II (New Promotion Types) .

Your note on requiring cities to fully heal ships is an interesting one. I wonder how others feel about that? I think its probably realistic and would also, especially, apply to deep see or deep space vehicles. But from a strategic standpoint, it means that simply injuring your opponent's ship is enough to take them out of the field of combat for a very significant length of time and could be very annoying when it happens to your ships!

One improvement I have in mind for the second round of Combat Mods is to make healing effects apply to UnitCombat classes specifically, thus you can define the difference between a medic and a mechanic quite effectively. With multiple UnitCombats allowing us to have far more sweeping unit category definitions, it should be pretty workable to set up this way.

Is it posible that the Rogue line will be changed so that they can not enter a city if there is a dog (or maybe Townwatch) unit or at last have to fight the dog first as it is quite anoying to have Rogues parked in your city when you can't do anything about them there.
Alternative the Crime fighting Abilitys should work as a chance to kill any Rogue line unit within a city.
(Because Dogs only see 1 field away and Rogue have command you also don't spot them early enough to fight them bevore they get into the city.)

We've got some plans to address this. Not necessarily what you have in mind but there will be a way.

Would it be possible to add a reduction to the price of buildings depending on the number of such buildings already present i your empire, or in empires you have open borders with, and hat you have either scouted or traded maps with? Sort of like how the research works now, but with buildings?

Also, I think the price reduction for techs researched by other civs are too low, as evidenced by the AI falling so much behind. I would vote for this reduction being bigger.

On the building thing... interesting mechanic. What goal are you shooting for there, giving a lagging civilization a better chance to catch up to the leader?

I tend to agree that Tech Diffusion doesn't come with quite enough of an impact... its hardly noticeable as it is now. But I also think it could be made to be a more interesting option that takes into account espionage against more advanced opponents and the amount of trade routes that tie you to that opponent. I think Koshling mentioned something along those lines earlier. I wouldn't mind leaving off any adjustments to that system until we have time to look at it deeper like this.

 

[Koshling]

I tend to agree that Tech Diffusion doesn't come with quite enough of an impact... its hardly noticeable as it is now. But I also think it could be made to be a more interesting option that takes into account espionage against more advanced opponents and the amount of trade routes that tie you to that opponent. I think Koshling mentioned something along those lines earlier. I wouldn't mind leaving off any adjustments to that system until we have time to look at it deeper like this.

Yeh, there's a discussion of some possible enhanements to tech diffusion in another thread, to make it interact with espionage and open border/trade status. It's not that close to the top of my priority list though, so unless someone else picks it up it won't likely be soon.

 

[ls612]

Yeh, there's a discussion of some possible enhanements to tech diffusion in another thread, to make it interact with espionage and open border/trade status. It's not that close to the top of my priority list though, so unless someone else picks it up it won't likely be soon.

This would also help with the Anti-steamroll measures AIAndy wanted to implement, so it is possibly a good idea to look at this from a pure balance perspective.

 

[charlesb96]

Your note on requiring cities to fully heal ships is an interesting one. I wonder how others feel about that? I think its probably realistic and would also, especially, apply to deep see or deep space vehicles. But from a strategic standpoint, it means that simply injuring your opponent's ship is enough to take them out of the field of combat for a very significant length of time and could be very annoying when it happens to your ships!

This is actually historically accurate. Many snipers would rather wound a soldier, because a kill takes one out of the action, but a wound takes out a half dozen others to escort them back to the aide station.

Same for ships. They have to have an escort to get back to port. Damage control can only do so much, major repairs take a dry dock. Many damaged ships were scuttled simply because the fleet could not afford to provide any other ships to escort them.

 

[charlesb96]

What Civics are supposed to give fixed borders? I see that monarchy and totalitarian do, but none of the other Government Civics give fixed borders. Is this right, not even President or Prime Minister have fixed borders, only Kings and Dictators?

 

[UncivilizedGuy]

It seems unrealistic to have the ability to contact other civilizations instantly without the use of the telephone. Prior to the telephone, messages were sent via messenger. Would a feature like this be an unrealistic addition?

 

[charlesb96]

It seems unrealistic to have the ability to contact other civilizations instantly without the use of the telephone. Prior to the telephone, messages were sent via messenger. Would a feature like this be an unrealistic addition?

Remember, the time line is in years, decades until modern times, long enough for a messenger to get where he is going

 

[UncivilizedGuy]

Remember, the time line is in years, decades until modern times, long enough for a messenger to get where he is going

I realize that. Maybe the messenger could cover 4 or 5 tiles a turn and have a high defense bonus. Or maybe a messenger route would have to be created between civs. Or maybe the messenger could take a turn to be built and then when you are ready to contact another civ the messenger gets consumed. Instant diplomacy never felt realistic to me, that's all.
It's just something else for us to do in the early game.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I realize that. Maybe the messenger could cover 4 or 5 tiles a turn and have a high defense bonus. Or maybe a messenger route would have to be created between civs. Or maybe the messenger could take a turn to be built and then when you are ready to contact another civ the messenger gets consumed. Instant diplomacy never felt realistic to me, that's all.
It's just something else for us to do in the early game.

I'm actually kinda liking this idea, making Diplomats necessary to begin a discussion with an AI civ by going to their capital (under diplomatic immunity from any kind of capturing, even during war) and enacting a mission to do so. (then auto returns to our capital when finished)

Make them able to be flown in to an opponent city with Flight and an Airport.

And with the introduction of the Telegraph, we are finally able to do without them, though we'd still use them to 'lobby' for attitude changes perhaps.

Great idea, but a long ways off before I'd personally be able to work on that. DH & SO were doing some things with Diplomats too so I don't want to tread on their territories here until we see what they've come up with and have stopped perfecting it.

 

[TowerWizard]

On the building thing... interesting mechanic. What goal are you shooting for there, giving a lagging civilization a better chance to catch up to the leader?

I tend to agree that Tech Diffusion doesn't come with quite enough of an impact... its hardly noticeable as it is now. But I also think it could be made to be a more interesting option that takes into account espionage against more advanced opponents and the amount of trade routes that tie you to that opponent. I think Koshling mentioned something along those lines earlier. I wouldn't mind leaving off any adjustments to that system until we have time to look at it deeper like this.

The building diffusion would be there to help civs lagging behind, yes, but only if they have open borders with you and have information about your cities. Also it would make buildings within every empire cheaper the more of the same building already built, regardless of other civs, possibly unlocked by guilds or some tech like that. The rationale behind this is that builders are likely to travel around the empire and learn how to design and build, say, churches, and then when they build another church it will be easier. To put it another way, it is unlikely that when you build a church in your empire's fifth city, no one on the building crew have ever seen another church before in their life.

Regarding the tech diffusion. It is more likely that tech leaders also have more espionage points than less advanced civs, I think. Therefore, it is more likely these proposed changes will add to the snowball effect, rather than reduce it? It is not a bad idea at all, but I would at least also make the base tech diffusion stronger.

One a somewhat related note: national units gets 2% more expensive for every other of that type built. 2% is not much, and it will hardly make any difference at all. I think it could be 5% more expensive per unit instead, so that it will make an impact of decision makning.

 

[charlesb96]

I have given my Great Commanders the "Ignore Terrain cost" so that my generals will not slow the army down, after all a Great General and all of his staff ride horses or motorized vehicles and an army of cavalry, say, should not have to slow down.

I would like to be able to give them the Morale and the Speed promotions when they are available but not have these promotions apply to the whole army. Is this possible? Or even perhaps let them apply to the whole stack for a high level (20+) general. Robert E. Lee inspired his men to move very fast at times, as did George Patton, example, the Battle of the Bulge, he pulled out of a winter campaign, shifted his army 90 degrees and went back into battle in just a few days.

 

[Faustmouse]

1)I think Tourism should have: "+X Gold from Wonders" because people love to travel to some cities mainly because of those "wonders" and spend a lot of money in those cities.


2) I know there were many thoughts about how to implent the Culutures, but I think it is very strange that they cant spread.
What about giving all the Culture-Wonders the ability to "found a culture" rather than produce them as a ressource? So you have a "holy city" for your cultures and they could spread like religions and traderoutes, open boarders, aviation, tourism etc would increase this chance.
Of course you shouldnt add an icon for each culture on the cities because this end up too crowded.

 

[charlesb96]

If someone founds a religion, and it only exists in that one city, it has not spread to others yet, then that one city is razed, does this mean that the religion is lost forever? Since only one civ can found it first?

 

[Thunderbrd]

The building diffusion would be there to help civs lagging behind, yes, but only if they have open borders with you and have information about your cities. Also it would make buildings within every empire cheaper the more of the same building already built, regardless of other civs, possibly unlocked by guilds or some tech like that. The rationale behind this is that builders are likely to travel around the empire and learn how to design and build, say, churches, and then when they build another church it will be easier. To put it another way, it is unlikely that when you build a church in your empire's fifth city, no one on the building crew have ever seen another church before in their life.

Regarding the tech diffusion. It is more likely that tech leaders also have more espionage points than less advanced civs, I think. Therefore, it is more likely these proposed changes will add to the snowball effect, rather than reduce it? It is not a bad idea at all, but I would at least also make the base tech diffusion stronger.

One a somewhat related note: national units gets 2% more expensive for every other of that type built. 2% is not much, and it will hardly make any difference at all. I think it could be 5% more expensive per unit instead, so that it will make an impact of decision makning.

Interesting idea regarding building diffusion. Not sure if or when we'd want to implement exactly but I'm not looking at it as a high priority given that tech diffusion does somewhat include some of those considerations already and it would not be a minor thing to program (although I so see some rationale for it.)

The National Unit penalty grows for every unit of that type, so after just 10 such units, each of them is an additional 20% more expensive. That seems like a lot to me... when if you were to adjust to 5%, it would mean that every one of those units would be 50% more expensive after just 10. Consider what another mere 10 units would bring? I just think they're already tending to be on the expensive side as is but others could disagree.

I have given my Great Commanders the "Ignore Terrain cost" so that my generals will not slow the army down, after all a Great General and all of his staff ride horses or motorized vehicles and an army of cavalry, say, should not have to slow down.

I would like to be able to give them the Morale and the Speed promotions when they are available but not have these promotions apply to the whole army. Is this possible? Or even perhaps let them apply to the whole stack for a high level (20+) general. Robert E. Lee inspired his men to move very fast at times, as did George Patton, example, the Battle of the Bulge, he pulled out of a winter campaign, shifted his army 90 degrees and went back into battle in just a few days.

I kinda agree with the insinuated sentiment here that GCs aren't very good at giving only themselves a benefit via promos but I'm not sure the system can avoid it. Nevertheless, for as much as I've interacted with GC codes there are some things I'm still unsure about there, and whether a promo can be set to only affect the GC unit itself or will automatically, once applied to a GC, become a command enhancing promotion.

1)I think Tourism should have: "+X Gold from Wonders" because people love to travel to some cities mainly because of those "wonders" and spend a lot of money in those cities.

I like it but it'd definitely force us to re-evaluate other gold giving areas in the game and tone them down a bit to get us back into a semblance of balance there if such an idea were implemented.

2) I know there were many thoughts about how to implent the Culutures, but I think it is very strange that they cant spread.
What about giving all the Culture-Wonders the ability to "found a culture" rather than produce them as a ressource? So you have a "holy city" for your cultures and they could spread like religions and traderoutes, open boarders, aviation, tourism etc would increase this chance.
Of course you shouldnt add an icon for each culture on the cities because this end up too crowded.

I've got something in mind for all this which involves making each culture a property that can spread in value rather than in absolutes. Yes, it may come with some extra buildings that can act like transistors to help spread that value stronger from a city with a culture, and would only be accessible at certain levels of a given culture. But its a whole 'nother project to come still.

If someone founds a religion, and it only exists in that one city, it has not spread to others yet, then that one city is razed, does this mean that the religion is lost forever? Since only one civ can found it first?

It depends on the options you're on. There's a bug option that allows those holy city designations to potentially switch cities at a time like that.

 

[charlesb96]

I think the Holy City relocation is dependent on there being another city out there with that religion in it. But what if the Holy City is the ONLY city that has that religion. Like it gets attacked and razed the very next turn. There is no other city in the world that has that religion yet for the Holy City to relocate to.

 

[Faustmouse]

I think the Holy City relocation is dependent on there being another city out there with that religion in it. But what if the Holy City is the ONLY city that has that religion. Like it gets attacked and razed the very next turn. There is no other city in the world that has that religion yet for the Holy City to relocate to.

Just make it up in the WB and try it?

I like it but it'd definitely force us to re-evaluate other gold giving areas in the game and tone them down a bit to get us back into a semblance of balance there if such an idea were implemented.

You think so? I thought it would come so late that it isnt balanced anyway

I've got something in mind for all this which involves making each culture a property that can spread in value rather than in absolutes. Yes, it may come with some extra buildings that can act like transistors to help spread that value stronger from a city with a culture, and would only be accessible at certain levels of a given culture. But its a whole 'nother project to come still.

Sounds awesome
Did you read what I wrote about turning ressources into properties? Do you think this would be possible?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Did you read what I wrote about turning ressources into properties? Do you think this would be possible?

I didn't think it was all that logistically feasible actually. This is because there's only so much UI space to express these properties mostly. I know there'd be a lot of cultures to define as properties but if there's no influence there wouldn't be any to show so it would only be showing a limited number in any given plot. But making resources properties would mean every resource property would show on every plot - ouch!

I haven't made up my mind on that though but I think a more specific system design would be necessary to make a volumetric resource system work properly.

I think the Holy City relocation is dependent on there being another city out there with that religion in it. But what if the Holy City is the ONLY city that has that religion. Like it gets attacked and razed the very next turn. There is no other city in the world that has that religion yet for the Holy City to relocate to.

Sure it'd be possible to effectively eliminate a young religion from the globe that way. And I personally am happy with that. It rarely ever happens but I can see how some young religions may have been completely removed from the world in a similar manner... consider how many people know much about the Caananite religion today. After the Hebrews destroyed the Caananites fairly thoroughly, Baal faded from pretty much anyone's religious perspective except to be retained in Christian lore as 'the Devil' or simply a demonic entity.

 

[AIAndy]

I didn't think it was all that logistically feasible actually. This is because there's only so much UI space to express these properties mostly. I know there'd be a lot of cultures to define as properties but if there's no influence there wouldn't be any to show so it would only be showing a limited number in any given plot. But making resources properties would mean every resource property would show on every plot - ouch!

Why would a resource property be on a normal plot?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Why would a resource property be on a normal plot?

Could you then isolate it to only be considered in cities?

Hmm... If that's possible then, it could mean that a city is considered to have access to a resource only if it has enough volume of that resource property compared to the population of the city... but then how would we handle resource trading and Corporation behaviors? I suppose the latter would be fairly easy actually... the city would be counted as having 1 full resource per so much of the property present compared to the population of the city.

But then resources on plots would be necessary for those Bonuses on plots to measure their potential output of collectable Resource Property, and perhaps also allows us to establish, on some, an absolute limit on how much can be obtained before the Bonus is depleted.

I guess I just haven't played with properties enough to know how much of this could be feasible.

 

[Faustmouse]

Oh I didn't think about turning plot-Ressources into Properties at all. That mean, there will be still an Iron-Ressource on the Plot as it is now, but if you connect it to your city the city wouldn't have Ressource: Iron (as it is now) but instead gain X Iron-Points per turn. With a shaft-mine 2X and so on.
Trading with other cities (of your civ) could be done by diffusing: If the mine produce 2X-Iron-points per turn, X Iron-points stay in the city while X are divided by the traderoutes of your city.
How to trade with other civs... not sure. Maybe add "access to Iron" as a step in between?

Build mine on iron and connect it -> "Access to (1) Iron" -> "X Iron-Points per city"

So you could trade the "access to (1) Iron.

Or is it possible to "Trade" Property-points directly?