Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

[raxo2222]

@pepper2000 @Thunderbrd
It appears there were few more redundancies as reported here.
I had to move Dystopia Pathongens one X grid forward to clean redundancy.
I recosted it and its Earthly buildings accordingly.

Buildings were in Pepper's module.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

In the "World" script I changed it so that areas that are cold and dry get the barren terrain, To me the desert/dunes/salt-flats terrains represent "Hot Deserts", or what some would call "True Deserts".
So Instead of finding Desert close to the tundra like in "PM", you'll find Barren close to the tundra in "World"

Actually this does not work. Barren is not the same as desert and you can't have camels or any plant or animal on barren before you can get the Great Farmer to make it possible. Cold deserts need to still be deserts and "people need to get with reality"

While playing my latest game I figured out how to fix the National Smelter/Breeder problem and the old problem of how to give access to some metals before metal working like really happened. Eg gold for special jewellery with stone age techs.

The National Smelter/Breeder buildings were the solution to the problem of having a resource in your national borders but outside of all of your city work areas.

1. Smelters. These should only exist for those things that are turned into ingots. Things that turn ingots into wares eg while Electrium is a naturally occurring alloy of gold and silver it probably should not be treated as a separate ore. It should be a by product of smelting gold or silver or it should only be a ware produced from gold and silver ingots.
   
   An autobuild building "xxx Near" is given to the city if it has the resource in its work area. This gives a "xxx in Work Area" to all cities.
   xxx Smelter can only be built in cities with "xxx Near".
   xxx Far Smelter can only be built if have access to xxx and not "xxx in Work Area".
   
   (Ren) xxx Smelter replaces xxx Smelter, requires xxx ore and Harbour or Caravan Post. Would be nice if we could have this so that it also replaces ones in other cities and that you could have 1 per "xxx mine".
   
   (Ind) xxx Smelter replaces both and requires xxx ore and Commercial Port or Railway Station.
   
   
2. Secondary Smelters
   
   These need to be reviewed. National Secondary Smelters should not exist at all. Should they exist, ie do ingots ever get made or is the real process one of combining the primary ingots into the wares?
   
   
3. Herds/National Breeders
   
   A similar set of auto buildings can be used here.
   
   I feel that you should not be able to place a herd in a city where you already have the animal resource in the work area.

I have checked #2 and all is good there. I have a working version of #1 but need to test it.

This needs to be extended for all plant and animal, including sea, resources eventually as in a recent game I had olives but they were not in the vicinity of any city so I was not able to make olive oil.

This may also be a solution for imported goods as in that case you will also have the resource but it wont be in your territory. That last bit is a bit harder to do as there is no function passed to python when a plot changes ownership. It would make trading raw materials allow some building of the manufactured goods from those resources. Along time I did try and do something like that with Jade but I am not happy with it. This may be better.

It also may be possible to come up with a way of saying a smelter only allows x smiths to be built. Or we could just go with the vanilla method of a smith requiring x smelters as a means of limiting buildings.

 

[DC0]

Ridiculously copious island goody huts?
I'm writing about island goody huts situated in sea plots. I've recently discovered Seafaring so my ships can traverse sea plots. And I'm stepping on these island goody huts. And it seems to me they provide enormous benefits. My civ is the best in terms of research and getting 2000+ per turn. Still, these island goody huts provide 7800 . Sometimes less. It seems to me over the edge. Luckily, they haven't provided me with a new tech in my current 2/3 of Ancient era. I mean, what are these huts if they are so sophisticated? Why they are not civs?
I suggest to greatly reduce value of the gifts goody huts provide in Ancient and later eras.

Understandably, goody huts can be sophisticated in the very beginning of the game in Prehistoric era. But later civs should outpace them. And goody huts should provide minor benefits like small lumps sums of gold.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Ridiculously copious island goody huts?
I'm writing about island goody huts situated in sea plots. I've recently discovered Seafaring so my ships can traverse sea plots. And I'm stepping on these island goody huts. And it seems to me they provide enormous benefits. My civ is the best in terms of research and getting 2000+ per turn. Still, these island goody huts provide 7800 . Sometimes less. It seems to me over the edge. Luckily, they haven't provided me with a new tech in my current 2/3 of Ancient era. I mean, what are these huts if they are so sophisticated? Why they are not civs?
I suggest to greatly reduce value of the gifts goody huts provide in Ancient and later eras.

Understandably, goody huts can be sophisticated in the very beginning of the game in Prehistoric era. But later civs should outpace them. And goody huts should provide minor benefits like small lumps sums of gold.

Goody huts and islands now both use the same mechanism. It is all in the XML somewhere now I think. I did do some work on ensuring that the bad effects scaled to the player discovering them. In my last few games I have noticed that the good from them seems to outweigh the bad by a large margin.

 

[DC0]

I have noticed that the good from them seems to outweigh the bad by a large margin.

By a large margin indeed. If you step on a goody hut with your 1 Wanderer or Stone Thrower and "villagers provide you with a unit" 4 Stone Axeman - that's a GAME CHANGER. In several turns you get your first great person - Great General. He leads your 4 Stone Axeman and gives several promotions. And that's it: you are unstoppable. You then get your next Great General, make him a Commander, promote Commander to +20% chance to capture and go harvesting Captives. And you won the game.

In my case it's only my desire to check out the modded game is preventing me from razing all AI civs and winning right away. So far I greatly enjoy the modded game. It's amazing. Fantastic. Captivating.

 

[strategyonly]

If ur getting Great Generals right away that fast, then ur playing at a LOW level, pick ur level up 2 levels then try again, i am playing on Monarch and only getting a general about every 600 turns . .

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@Thunderbrd,

What is the difference between

• RawVicinityBonus and
  
• PrereqRawVicinityBonuses

I am assuming these are the ones I need to play with.

Also a bit of clarification on them is needed.

1. Do they only become true when the resource becomes visible or is it when the resource is enabled?
2. Do they remain true when the resource is connected and has any valid improvement on it? IE when the resource also becomes in the vicinity.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The first is a tag to specify just one 'primary' raw vicinity bonus required. The second is a list of OR raw vicinity prereqs. I believe the standard method on that applies so that the first is an AND to the one listed in the RawVicinityBonus tag that may be replaced by any of the others listed in the PrereqRawVicinityBonuses tag instead (though the first may not be substituted.) It follows the same rules as the VicinityBonus and PrereqVicinityBonuses tags that already existed. The only difference is that Raw doesn't have to be worked or routed, just within workable radius.

Interestingly, looking at the code, it should work whether you even have visibility on it or not. That opens up some unique applications for it.

They do remain true when the resource is connected and has any valid improvement on it.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Thanks. I thought the group was an AND not an OR. The OR ones usually have an OR in the name.

Yes there is a bug in the vicinity and probably raw vicinity code as it does not check that it is in your territory eg if you only have access to the first ring due to the city culture resources in the second ring are still considered in the city work area.

I have been testing but it was failing! I forgot to put the copper requirement in the buildings!

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The first is a tag to specify just one 'primary' raw vicinity bonus required. The second is a list of OR raw vicinity prereqs. I believe the standard method on that applies so that the first is an AND to the one listed in the RawVicinityBonus tag that may be replaced by any of the others listed in the PrereqRawVicinityBonuses tag instead (though the first may not be substituted.) It follows the same rules as the VicinityBonus and PrereqVicinityBonuses tags that already existed. The only difference is that Raw doesn't have to be worked or routed, just within workable radius.

Interestingly, looking at the code, it should work whether you even have visibility on it or not. That opens up some unique applications for it.

They do remain true when the resource is connected and has any valid improvement on it.

This does not appear to be working. As soon as I improve and connect the resource it is no longer a RawVicinityBonus

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yes there is a bug in the vicinity and probably raw vicinity code as it does not check that it is in your territory eg if you only have access to the first ring due to the city culture resources in the second ring are still considered in the city work area.

I'm not sure they were meant to but we can make them do that.

This does not appear to be working. As soon as I improve and connect the resource it is no longer a RawVicinityBonus

Strange... probably easily fixed. Gotta do a little debugging this weekend so I'll probably find some time to correct that.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I think I have figured it out - the resource and city are in the same plot! The resource was out of the bounds of all cities, then I built the city on the resource. It is now in the vicinity of that city but is still not counted as being in the work area of any city using the Raw Vicinity.

edit looks like it was a cache thing, everything was fine the next turn!

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

OK seems to be working well for metals. I have not removed the National Smelters just disabled them. When I do I will warn everyone before I put it on the SVN. It will put up some error/information pop-up boxes it will not break saves.

Almost ready for SVN

Metals

National metal Smelter is replaced by the Far metal Smelter. It counts as a National Wonder but isn't really it just costs as much because of the transport costs involved in getting the metal from far away places.

1. You can only build it if you do not have the metal in the work area of any of your cities.
2. import counts as far away
   
3. It does not go obsolete if you build and then get a city with the metal in its work area.

Status: tested and almost ready for SVN. Just need to make some icons.
​

Plans

Animals -The big three to start with i.e. camels, elephants and horses.

National animal Breeder is replaced by the Far animal Breeder as above.

1. as 1. above
2. as 2. above
3. goes obsolete if you get the animal in any city work area

Animal Herd buildings

• You wont be able to place the animal Herd building in a city which has the animal in its work area.
• The animal Herd building will go obsolete if the animal becomes available in the city area e.g. via a Great Farmer

​

 

[Noriad2]

Sooo, if you have a "far animal breeder" in your military city to build mounted units, and you accidentally conquer a city with a herd of the same species in it, you suddenly can't build mounted units in your military city anymore?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Sooo, if you have a "far animal breeder" in your military city to build mounted units, and you accidentally conquer a city with a herd of the same species in it, you suddenly can't build mounted units in your military city anymore?

You can only build mounted units there once you build all the other infrastructure. More than enough time for you to put an animal Herd building there. The National Breeder does not give an animal but does allow the buildings as if you have an animal in the vicinity.

edit I could change it so that the subsequent buildings and units require domesticated riding animal and make the breeders the same as the smelters but that just seemed to much.

 

[DC0]

If ur getting Great Generals right away that fast, then ur playing at a LOW level, pick ur level up 2 levels then try again, i am playing on Monarch and only getting a general about every 600 turns . .

I'm playing on Monarch. In the very beginning of a game, Great Generals are born relatively fast: 120 point and 240 points, if I remember correctly.

 

[raxo2222]

I'm playing on Emperor. In the very beginning of a game, Great Generals are born relatively fast: 120 point and 240 points, if I remember correctly.

I guess you are much more efficient than StrategyOnly.

On what game speed are you playing?

Also you may have more occasions to collect great general points.

 

[strategyonly]

He probably fights more, i am a builder, like DH, i usually dont even get into a fight against another civ until after Med Era . . and sometimes even later. .

 

[DC0]

On what game speed are you playing?

Also you may have more occasions to collect great general points.

Eternity.
I specifically described situation when in the very beginning of the game you get Stone Axeman (or Spearman, of Clubman) from goody hut. At this point of the game 4 unit is unbeatable.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Eternity.
I specifically described situation when in the very beginning of the game you get Stone Axeman (or Spearman, of Clubman) from goody hut. At this point of the game 4 unit is unbeatable.

A very specific reason Not to play Eternity imhpo.