Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

[raxo2222]

@raxo2222,

I think I will be reverting your Pollution entry level changes. And when I get the thread up for both Ait and Water Pollutions I will be asking some questions about some of the GOM Property additions added in of late.

Having this section added in for Air Pollution makes no sense to me.

 <Active>
               <Not>
                 <Or>
                   <Has>
                     <GOMType>GOM_TERRAIN</GOMType>
                     <ID>TERRAIN_OCEAN</ID>
                   </Has>
                   <Has>
                     <GOMType>GOM_TERRAIN</GOMType>
                     <ID>TERRAIN_OCEAN_TROPICAL</ID>
                   </Has>
                   <Has>
                     <GOMType>GOM_TERRAIN</GOMType>
                     <ID>TERRAIN_OCEAN_POLAR</ID>
                   </Has>
                 </Or>
               </Not>
             </Active>

What does the different Ocean Terrains have to do with Air Pollution?

And since it does apply to Water Pollution then why are not Sea terrains and River terrains and Lake terrains not in there as well? Or is this really Not necessary for even Water pollution Property to do it's job?

You are fine with reverting my changes.

I think it means, that it should NOT spread into oceans, @Thunderbrd knows it better.
That is pollution is banned from spreading into oceans.

 

[JosEPh_II]

You are fine with reverting my changes.

I think it means, that it should NOT spread into oceans, @Thunderbrd knows it better.
That is pollution is banned from spreading into oceans.

That probably is not a good thing "That is pollution is banned from spreading into oceans".

I need to ask what prompted you to raise the entry levels and extend the Range to 3000? Was it a prompt from another Modder or from a player?

 

[Toffer90]

I'm adding red HELP: on beginning of Help entry.
I'm removing unused help entries too for example Altamira caves had help entry, that was removed with text being still here.
I found next building in file, that appears to be on opposite end of tech tree.

Spoiler :

View attachment 517577

Tooltip will be like this - you should notice red HELP entry.

That is beginning of help entry will be: [ICON_BULLET][COLOR_RED]HELP: [COLOR_REVERT]

I don't like it. Just voicing my opinion.

 

[Yudishtira]

@Toffer90,
about your city name changes, what do you do when the city historically belonged to multiple civs? I'm thinking of Tarsus/Tarsos, which I think belonged to western Rome, eastern Rome (Byzantines), Persia, Greece, and not sure if the Hittites and Ottomans had a city there too. Also HRE must have a significant overlap with Germany of the same city with the same name.

 

[Thunderbrd]

That probably is not a good thing "That is pollution is banned from spreading into oceans".

I think this was done in an effort to minimize the turn time impact.

 

[raxo2222]

That probably is not a good thing "That is pollution is banned from spreading into oceans".

I need to ask what prompted you to raise the entry levels and extend the Range to 3000? Was it a prompt from another Modder or from a player?

Well AI builds many more buildings including polluting ones, since they got AIweight.
As I said earlier upgrades, buildings required for other buildings, Industrial and later era resource producers, smiths and smelters got AIweight, so AI now doesn't neglect requirement and upgrade chains.
Also National Wonders giving free buildings, resources and ones being required for something got AIweight too.

 

[raxo2222]

I don't like it. Just voicing my opinion.

So how you would format beginning of help entry?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Well AI builds many more buildings including polluting ones, since they got AIweight.
As I said earlier upgrades, buildings required for other buildings, Industrial and later era resource producers, smiths and smelters got AIweight, so AI now doesn't neglect requirement and upgrade chains.
Also National Wonders giving free buildings, resources and ones being required for something got AIweight too.

Anything that allows other buildings or gives free buildings is already considered by the AI evaluation, they should not need an AIWeight value as well.

 

[raxo2222]

Anything that allows other buildings or gives free buildings is already considered by the AI evaluation, they should not need an AIWeight value as well.

Well without it they never built NASA because they failed to build prereqs of prereqs and with it now NASA gets built among other buildings.
Prereq of prereq of prereq might be broken chain since somewhere resource or building may be seen to be too useless to bother with it.
Also it was way faster thing to do than add explicitly all prereqs of prereqs of prereqs of prereqs to buildings.
AI weight of 1 is minor thing, so building doesn't have 0 value forever and it doesn't break chain.

Also AI finally can build tanks and airplanes if they remove slavery.

 

[Toffer90]

@Toffer90,
about your city name changes, what do you do when the city historically belonged to multiple civs? I'm thinking of Tarsus/Tarsos, which I think belonged to western Rome, eastern Rome (Byzantines), Persia, Greece, and not sure if the Hittites and Ottomans had a city there too. Also HRE must have a significant overlap with Germany of the same city with the same name.

I try to find out, what did the babylonian call the city, what did the assyrian call the city, romans, arabs, orromans, hittites, Vikings (held Kiev, Smolensk, Novogrod, Dublin, York, etc), Greece.
There are many cases where many of them had their own name for a citiy, so if they conquered the city and that city held a significant role for the empire in question, and they had a unique name for it, then I think they should have that city in their city list.
If they didn't have different names then I evaluate which of the civs the city was most significant for, or perhaps "Which civ/empire is most natural to think about when hearing the city name in question.".
The civ that founded the city should be prioritized unless the city was only an insignificant hamlet until it was conquered/rebuilt and then made into a great city by another civ.
I also try to figure out when the name for the city was taken into use and by whom.

I haven't investigated the city of Tarsus, currently it is only in the ottoman city list and I don't think any other civ currently have that city under a different name in their city list.
Edit: {
The Hittite founded it and called it Tarsa.
The Neo-Assyrians called it Tarsisi, and held the city between 900-625 BC.
The Area was a vassal for the Persian empire between 625-333 BC.
The Greek called it "Antiochia on the Cydnus", but I wouldn't put this name in the game. Many places have held the name antioch: Link
It was known as Juliopolis by the Romans who held the city for a long time; between 67 BC and 330 and this is the period when the city became significant.
Hard to pinpoint what the Byzantine called it, they officially mostly used Latin place names even though they mostly spoke greek dialects. Held between 330-630, and contested with the Arabs until early 8th century. By 750 the city was lying in ruin. Between 800 and 830 it was once more held by the Byzantine. The Byzantine reconquered it from the Arabs also in the year 965 and held it until 1085.
It held little importance for the Rashidun caliphate (Base for the Arabian empire), they called it Tarsūs as far as I can figure out.
Tarsus history was messy in this period, but it calmed down a bit when the city was held by the Ramazanids between 1359-1516.
The Ottomans claimed the city in 1516.
I can only find three acceptable version of this city, Tarsa for the Hittite, Juliopolis for the old Roman empire, and the modern name Tarsus for the Ottomans.
}

So how you would format beginning of help entry?

I found it fine the way it was.
If someone forced me to pick a change, then I would choose to colorize the entire help text line in perhaps cyan or yellow.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Well AI builds many more buildings including polluting ones, since they got AIweight.
As I said earlier upgrades, buildings required for other buildings, Industrial and later era resource producers, smiths and smelters got AIweight, so AI now doesn't neglect requirement and upgrade chains.
Also National Wonders giving free buildings, resources and ones being required for something got AIweight too.

All Crime Disease and PDBs are supposed to have negative AIWeight. When you give them Positive AIWeight they try to build them as you know. This was proven along time ago. We did not want the AI to build these buildings because they do not recognize the problem it causes them to do so. It will put them into a Death Spiral and flourishing AI Cities in the early game will self destruct in the mid late Eras. Particularly in the Industrial/Modern(Atomic)/Information Eras. As it takes getting up to these Eras for the weight of these Problem ( Pollution in particular) to really bare down on everyone in the game. Crime has been amended to be a problem for all early/mid and mid-late Eras, same for Disease. But Pollution was designed by Hydro to impact the game starting tin the Ren Era and really ramping up in the Industrial Era.

 

[raxo2222]

I found it fine the way it was.
If someone forced me to pick a change, then I would choose to colorize the entire help text line in perhaps cyan or yellow.

Well for units they are harder to notice.
I guess I can change HELP: color to yellow. It should be noticeable, that this unit can place resources, or that unit isn't meant to be built on regular maps, as its space program unit.
It should be immediately noticeable, that unit or building does something special.

All Crime Disease and PDBs are supposed to have negative AIWeight. When you give them Positive AIWeight they try to build them as you know. This was proven along time ago. We did not want the AI to build these buildings because they do not recognize the problem it causes them to do so. It will put them into a Death Spiral and flourishing AI Cities in the early game will self destruct in the mid late Eras. Particularly in the Industrial/Modern(Atomic)/Information Eras. As it takes getting up to these Eras for the weight of these Problem ( Pollution in particular) to really bare down on everyone in the game. Crime has been amended to be a problem for all early/mid and mid-late Eras, same for Disease. But Pollution was designed by Hydro to impact the game starting tin the Ren Era and really ramping up in the Industrial Era.

Well a lot of buildings, that got AI weight reduce crime and disease too.
My tests and player saves showed exactly opposite results - even in one of your games you were in Medieval or Renaissance era, when tech leader reached Atomic era - I think this one with 8 minute EoT.
Research steps had to be reduced.
Only pollution was appearing to be real threat - this is why I upscaled its pseudobuildings.

I did first batch of AI weights several months ago, then I added AI weight to smelters, smiths and replacements several weeks ago.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Did you add Positive AI Weight to any Bad Property Buildings? If you did then we are back to the problem we had before were the AI would build Gambling Dens and Worse Crime giving buildings because they only saw the gold attached to them. I use Crime as an example, this applies to All Property's buildings that add to the Bad/Increasing levels that end up triggering Special Buildings.

 

[raxo2222]

Did you add Positive AI Weight to any Bad Property Buildings? If you did then we are back to the problem we had before were the AI would build Gambling Dens and Worse Crime giving buildings because they only saw the gold attached to them. I use Crime as an example, this applies to all Property buildings.

All AI weights except slavery removing building (Emancipation Proclamation is cheap as ordinance and has AI weight of 1000) is 1 - if building already had some value, then nothing changes much.

I added it to buildings, that made properties worse.
But a lot of buildings, that have AI weight help combat properties possibly overwhelming +crime and +disease buildings.

There is 1110 buildings, that have AI weight.
If they had value, then AI weight doesn't matter much.
If they were seen as without value, then building was getting built.

Also sheer volume of buildings, that AI never built because they never cared about prereqs boosts economy and hardens cities against properties.
Pollution is tied to Industrial+ resource producers, smelters and smiths, but then those allows strong economy, modernized army and cutting edge property control.

I added most of AI weights in December.
And then some in mid January.
No one reported collapsing AIs.

 

[JosEPh_II]

AI Weights of 1000 are most likely out of the AIWeight range.

koshling Warned Strongly about adding in too big of an Negative or Positive AIWeight number. He also recommended Sparing use of the AIWeight. (He also said the same over Flavors, that going over 10 or -10 on any Flavor was not good.)

You now are causing increased computations on all buildings were you added in the AIWeight. I understand that some was very much needed. But not All.

 

[raxo2222]

AI Weights of 1000 are most likely out of the AIWeight range. koshling Warned Strongly about adding in too big of an Negative or Positive AIWeight number. He also recommended sparing use of the AIWeight.

AI weight of 1000 was used only on one building - Emancipation Proclamation, I made it very cheap just like ordinance so AI should always kill slavery so it can start industrial revolution.
With chipotle cheat in ini you can check weight of building by holding ctrl or shift when being inside of AI city (ctrl+z reveals map if cheats are enabled with chipotle).
Highest ones were in couple of thousands that is natural values of building for AI.
Also Koshling probably didn't knew, that some chains are overcomplicated and prone to be broken by seemingly worthless buildings.
AI weight of 1 is barely noticeable change if building has value already and essentially meaningless, if building already has large value for AI.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Also Koshling probably didn't knew, that some chains are overcomplicated and prone to be broken by seemingly worthless buildings.

Oh he knew! And is one of the many reasons he stopped Modding C2C. Building Modders would not listen to his recommendations. And they were daily compounding the Bugs in the mod. Hydro and Mr Azure very much hastened koshling's departure from the Mod.

 

[MacCoise]

I try to find out, what did the babylonian call the city, what did the assyrian call the city, romans, arabs, orromans, hittites, Vikings (held Kiev, Smolensk, Novogrod, Dublin, York, etc), Greece.
There are many cases where many of them had their own name for a citiy, so if they conquered the city and that city held a significant role for the empire in question, and they had a unique name for it, then I think they should have that city in their city list.
If they didn't have different names then I evaluate which of the civs the city was most significant for, or perhaps "Which civ/empire is most natural to think about when hearing the city name in question.".
The civ that founded the city should be prioritized unless the city was only an insignificant hamlet until it was conquered/rebuilt and then made into a great city by another civ.
I also try to figure out when the name for the city was taken into use and by whom.

I haven't investigated the city of Tarsus, currently it is only in the ottoman city list and I don't think any other civ currently have that city under a different name in their city list.
Edit: {
The Hittite founded it and called it Tarsa.
The Neo-Assyrians called it Tarsisi, and held the city between 900-625 BC.
The Area was a vassal for the Persian empire between 625-333 BC.
The Greek called it "Antiochia on the Cydnus", but I wouldn't put this name in the game. Many places have held the name antioch: Link
It was known as Juliopolis by the Romans who held the city for a long time; between 67 BC and 330 and this is the period when the city became significant.
Hard to pinpoint what the Byzantine called it, they officially mostly used Latin place names even though they mostly spoke greek dialects. Held between 330-630, and contested with the Arabs until early 8th century. By 750 the city was lying in ruin. Between 800 and 830 it was once more held by the Byzantine. The Byzantine reconquered it from the Arabs also in the year 965 and held it until 1085.
It held little importance for the Rashidun caliphate (Base for the Arabian empire), they called it Tarsūs as far as I can figure out.
Tarsus history was messy in this period, but it calmed down a bit when the city was held by the Ramazanids between 1359-1516.
The Ottomans claimed the city in 1516.
I can only find three acceptable version of this city, Tarsa for the Hittite, Juliopolis for the old Roman empire, and the modern name Tarsus for the Ottomans.
}
I found it fine the way it was.
If someone forced me to pick a change, then I would choose to colorize the entire help text line in perhaps cyan or yellow.

Fascinating, how will you deal with Celtic names? They didn't really found cities but if you want any help with the Celtic (Irish, Gallic, Welsh) modern place names , let me know

 

[raxo2222]

Oh he knew! And is one of the many reasons he stopped Modding C2C. Building Modders would not listen to his recommendations. And they were daily compounding the Bugs in the mod. Hydro and Mr Azure very much hastened koshling's departure from the Mod.

Ah so those requirement/replacement chains were probably much simpler back then - now AI weight is necessary to patch holes in value calculation here and there.
Patch is much larger to make sure that requirement/replacement chains are holding together.
Even if you want NASA or build tanks you need much more complex chain compared to getting tamed animals or metal wares.
And those modern chains are much simpler than Nanotech/Transhuman era where you literally are building upwards.
On early tech side simple Hunting Instructions and Child Care hut (or other Omega Child Crew prereqs) got AI weight, so AI always build those important buildings.

No building with cost of -1 got AI weight including property pseudobuildings, as AI weight is used on buildable buildings.

Now AI always builds Hunting Instructions and Omega Child Crew for example.

 

[strategyonly]

to all the people that r currently helping with C2C, can u pls go to the "credits" area of the BUG area and place ur name and what u r doing here in C2C, but keep it short thx . .. SO .. just need and updated one is all ..