Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I am getting a lot of slave units from successful combat, including combat against units that would not intuitively produce slaves, notably subdued animals. I propose that the bAnimal property (in the UnitInfo class) must be 0 in order to produce a slave from successful combat.

C2C v7 w/ dll from 19 Jan, running Slavery civic.
Monarch - Snail - ROM_Terra - Gigantic

Actually we would need to check the combat tag is not UNITCOMBAT_ANIMAL so that you don't get slaves from war dogs either.

I don't think we get enough slaves when attacking a city. No matter how many defenders there are or the size of the city I only ever get one.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Take a look at RevDCM, which this mod is really built on, they said "they have Limited Religions" fixed, but i have no real idea if that is so Plus they have a new source code and and update that just came out.

btw, i think i found one of the artdefines that was causing the CTD, so "we" can get back to the modding again. (Thx to the debugger dll.)

One thing that is really teeing me off is the in-between turn times are so looooong, need for that to be fixed.

Well, as I stated, I believe I found (and fixed) the code problem we were having with limited religions... but only for when its on its own - the lack of compatability was simply something I allowed for now in order to establish that it worked with the other options first. I do plan to work out how to make LR & DP compatable so that's on the books as one of the next things to do (playtesting and debugging have taken a priority as well as RL)

In regards to the long turn delays, in playing hotseat, we're only experiencing that between player 2 and player 1's rounds, which indicates its something happening at the end of the round as a whole or simply inside the AI determinations. It could also be some of the plot errors attempting to process for each and every civ. I found some more errors that were a little intriguing particularly where they were timed. There's another one the Debugger gives when you 'gift' a unit... small things like that that I just need the time to go through and decipher. I've seen pretty much everything you listed above in addition to more and I'm cataloguing them as I go so I can take each one and solve them all individually (even if it takes a week of study on each one).

 

[strategyonly]

I am getting a lot of slave units from successful combat, including combat against units that would not intuitively produce slaves, notably subdued animals. I propose that the bAnimal property (in the UnitInfo class) must be 0 in order to produce a slave from successful combat.

C2C v7 w/ dll from 19 Jan, running Slavery civic.
Monarch - Snail - ROM_Terra - Gigantic

Actually we would need to check the combat tag is not UNITCOMBAT_ANIMAL so that you don't get slaves from war dogs either.

I don't think we get enough slaves when attacking a city. No matter how many defenders there are or the size of the city I only ever get one.

Right now the slaves are set this way:

Spoiler :

# you can change the chance of getting slaves with this between 0-99, 0 means 0% and 99 100%
							iChance = 40

 

[soup567]

I keep getting an XML error when I try to load the game. I have the current version of this, and the extra stuff I have downloaded are the AND Mega Civ Pack and Kordanor's Earth Map. I'm not sure if either of those would cause problems. Here's a log of it.

 

[strategyonly]

I keep getting an XML error when I try to load the game. I have the current version of this, and the extra stuff I have downloaded are the AND Mega Civ Pack and Kordanor's Earth Map. I'm not sure if either of those would cause problems. Here's a log of it.

I have no idea what a Kordanor's Earth Map is

But i do know that the Mega Pack does NOT work with this mod.

 

[soup567]

I have no idea what a Kordanor's Earth Map is

It's a 50 civ map that uses some civs from the Mega Pack.

But i do know that the Mega Pack does NOT work with this mod.

Well that explains it I guess. Thanks for the help. Are you currently working on making the Mega Pack compatible?

 

[Nevets_]

It's a 50 civ map that uses some civs from the Mega Pack.



Well that explains it I guess. Thanks for the help. Are you currently working on making the Mega Pack compatible?

Wow, you're going to have turn times over 15 minutes on a map that size by the time you get to the classical era. I doubt I could play an AND game on a map that big, and this mod is already more stressful than AND.

 

[soup567]

Wow, you're going to have turn times over 15 minutes on a map that size by the time you get to the classical era. I doubt I could play an AND game on a map that big, and this mod is already more stressful than AND.

I'm waiting for Badess to come out which is going to have over 70 I believe lol.

 

[strategyonly]

I'm waiting for Badess to come out which is going to have over 70 I believe lol.

Yeah, but the same as the Mega Pack (i believe) is only like i UU and one UB for each civ, in "my" opinion a civ must have at least a flavor of units with it, of at least a MINIMUM of 7 units to be concerned an actual civ, otherwise your really only playing with the BASIC units anyway. Which after time like Civ Gold, bets boring. (No offense to Civ Gold people).


@Thunderbrd, Also see pic 3 with a question>

@DH: Had a weird occurrence, my Thief attacked a panther and the game crash four times, as i kept going back to see what was going on, but then i changed the game and moved someplace else, no crash, but then i went back to the saved-game and attacked the panther again and won again, but this time no CTD (pic 2)

@Team, what do you think of moving the "caged animals" to Tech Tanning, that way you dont have a big problem with population and science with all the Subdued Animals you capture, mainly i was thinking you'd have to catch them and use them as tanning hides (caged right) plus meat on the table (slab)

 

[Thunderbrd]

Strategyonly:

1) Don't play with Choose Religions then If you play DP without choose Religions, you are then only limited to selecting the religions you technologically qualify for when you have a prophet. (Might wanna make sure the religion hasn't been founded already) (also... in that pic, the waters of life appear to be on brown land (plains or grassland, can never remember which is brown and which is green...))

Maybe we need another option... something that sets religion options by era...

2) I'm at roughly the same point in the game (my files say that one of the domestications, can't remember which, is misspelled (Dpmestication)) and between my wife and I we have 4 religions. Remember that instead of getting a religion at the techs that normally give a religion to the first to reach it, under DP, you get a free prophet if you're the first to reach that tech. There probably should be roughly 4 or 5 religions exposed given the turn count on snail.

3) I have found that attacking panthers is almost always a bad idea as it often leads to a CTD with the file structure we have. Its suggestive that perhaps some art is missing for the 'subdued' panther? That's strange of course, but yeah, something is up there. The debug dll has not been all that helpful to define the problem in ctds.

 

[strategyonly]

Strategyonly:

1) Don't play with Choose Religions then If you play DP without choose Religions, you are then only limited to selecting the religions you technologically qualify for when you have a prophet. (Might wanna make sure the religion hasn't been founded already) (also... in that pic, the waters of life appear to be on brown land (plains or grassland, can never remember which is brown and which is green...))

Maybe we need another option... something that sets religion options by era...

2) I'm at roughly the same point in the game (my files say that one of the domestications, can't remember which, is misspelled (Dpmestication)) and between my wife and I we have 4 religions. Remember that instead of getting a religion at the techs that normally give a religion to the first to reach it, under DP, you get a free prophet if you're the first to reach that tech. There probably should be roughly 4 or 5 religions exposed given the turn count on snail.

3) I have found that attacking panthers is almost always a bad idea as it often leads to a CTD with the file structure we have. Its suggestive that perhaps some art is missing for the 'subdued' panther? That's strange of course, but yeah, something is up there. The debug dll has not been all that helpful to define the problem in ctds.

1. Yeah your right, my mind must have wondered, AGAIN That is the second time i have played with CR, and the LAST.

2. Yeah Hydro seen and informed me about that awhile back, and i have since corrected it.

3. I dont see how any art is missing its the original panther from Firaxis?


EDIT: I just found this, i wonder if this is causing the CTD?

This can partly be done using the unit XML and terrain/feature impassible tags. It is not perfect because feature overwrites terrain when it comes to movement. I have been playing around with it and get lions appearing on plains but in forest and then not being able to move because I have forest as impassible.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Well, I have never had a problem with panthers. The panther and subdued panther use the same art. Subdued animals don't have any restriction on where they can go. Although there does look to be an error in where a panther can go, it can't go anywhere, is it possible that it is trying to retreat and has not been killed?

Try the attached unit infos for subdued animals. It may be save game OK.

 

[soup567]

Is there any reason why I can't see the option for my archers to do ranged attacks? I have the option turned on.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Team, what do you think of moving the "caged animals" to Tech Tanning, that way you dont have a big problem with population and science with all the Subdued Animals you capture, mainly i was thinking you'd have to catch them and use them as tanning hides (caged right) plus meat on the table (slab)

Seems like we keep going around in circles with the SA mod. They were made for a much later era but we can't get the animals to keep spawning that late. And if you save up your animal unit for later then you may go bankrupt from them. In addition if you do use them on buildings they build buildings that not only are over powered but also are way ahead of their time. Such as cages even before you can hunt or a Hunting Lodge before you know how to build a Shelter. These have to be fixed somehow or even removed.

I mean prehistoric people did not keep animals in cages they just killed their meat there. It was only until the discovery of animal domestication that they realized that they could keep the animals around and eat them later or even use them to their advantage with dogs.

How about we try to merge it with my bonus resource mod. With something like this ...

1. Elephant, Mammoth, Wolf, Dire Wolf, Horse and Camel upgrade to Units like they do (or will be with the camel).

2. Hunter gets moved to Hunting tech and requires the Hunter's Camp to be built. And the Hunting Lodge is taken out.

3. Rather than creating "Herds" animals only create on map resources. Which would be the following ...

Ivory = Elephant, Mammoth, Rhino
Horse = Horse
Deer = Deer
Bison = Bison
Cow = Bison
Pig = Wild Boar
Bananas = Gorilla, Orangutan
Incense = Camel
Fur = Bear, Polar Bear, Cave Bear, Giant Panda, Lion, Panther, Cheetah, Lion Pack, Cave Lion, Tiger, Siberian Tiger, Jaguar, Hyena, Wolf, Dire Wolf
Fish = Salt Water Crocodile

Note that these resources would be later used to build buildings such a the "Monkey Breeder" requires Banana resource to be in the city vicinity.

4. Rather than building Kennels the Wolf and Dire Wolf build a "Dog Breeder" and the Kennels are taken out or possibly moved to require the Dog Breeder to be built and not built by an animal.

5. Animal Totems are moved to Shamanism tech.

6. All cages are taken out and from animals being able to build them. But instead are possible to be built based upon the resources in the city vicinity such as if you have Bananas in your city vicinity and a Carnival Built then you can make a "Monkey Cage".

7. Note that the Governor's Pets and Governor's Menagerie can stay the same.

By making these changes buildings and subdued animals should have instant use and allow for buildings to be built at their appropriate times rather than trying to save them up for later.

 

[Nevets_]

What happens when you 'place' a resource on the map on top of another (unrevealed) resource? Does it overwrite the hidden resource, or not allow you to do it at all? If it doesn't allow you, does it use up the unit trying or is the placement button disabled on that tile, (which would let you use animals to scout for uranium) ?

In V6 you could place resources on the map with workers, and it seemed to me to get quickly out of hand, and I was always worried that placing that extra fur resource would overwrite the coal or sulfur I had yet to reveal. I like the idea of being able to place bonuses in theory, but it could be really easy to abuse if it's not limited.

What about a great person-like system:

• You get one free Great Shepherd each time you research one of the hunting/animal techs, and a free Great Farmer each time you research one of the farming techs. You can't build them until much later.
• All players get them when they research the correct tech, not just the first one there.
• You can attach a Great Shepherd to a subdued animal like you attach a Great General to a combat unit.
• A subdued animal (with the Great Shepherd promotion) can be used up to create it's resource in an empty tile, and a Great Farmer can be used up to create a plant resource you already have access to, in an empty tile.
• Once you get Cloning you can build subdued animals with the Great Shepherd promotion (but only those you whose associated resource you have access to), and once you get Ecological Engineering you can build Great Farmers. Both will be national units to prevent spamming them, and require alot of hammers.

Another suggestion: I don't think Fur should be a catch-all resource for any animal with hair, historically certain furs were much more valued than others, and since it's a happiness resource instead of a health one I think the original intent was to have it represent these rarer pelts that are unusually soft/warm/pretty and assume that more common pelts were freely available.

Maybe just restrict it to Polar Bears, Siberian Tigers, and Dire Wolves, so Fur is resource likely to be found only in the poles, like Bananas are likely only to be found near the equator.

And we should either add in another animal that turns into the cow resource (maybe Aurochs?) or get rid of the bison resource and just have subdued bisons provide cows. The species are distinct, but for gameplay purposes they are almost the same, just like Yak's and cows, or llamas and sheep.

 

[Hydromancerx]

What happens when you 'place' a resource on the map on top of another (unrevealed) resource? Does it overwrite the hidden resource, or not allow you to do it at all? If it doesn't allow you, does it use up the unit trying or is the placement button disabled on that tile, (which would let you use animals to scout for uranium) ?

Well there are a lot of unrevealed resources even in the later era. It could be uranium, could be rubber could be bauxite ore or heck it could be just lead since that comes mid-ancient era. Using it in that way would not be very beneficial since your loosing gold by not using the unit

In V6 you could place resources on the map with workers, and it seemed to me to get quickly out of hand, and I was always worried that placing that extra fur resource would overwrite the coal or sulfur I had yet to reveal. I like the idea of being able to place bonuses in theory, but it could be really easy to abuse if it's not limited.

I think you still can but it comes much later, like at Agricultural Tools with the "Great Farmer".

What about a great person-like system:

• You get one free Great Shepherd each time you research one of the hunting/animal techs, and a free Great Farmer each time you research one of the farming techs. You can't build them until much later.
• All players get them when they research the correct tech, not just the first one there.
• You can attach a Great Shepherd to a subdued animal like you attach a Great General to a combat unit.
• A subdued animal (with the Great Shepherd promotion) can be used up to create it's resource in an empty tile, and a Great Farmer can be used up to create a plant resource you already have access to, in an empty tile.
• Once you get Cloning you can build subdued animals with the Great Shepherd promotion (but only those you whose associated resource you have access to), and once you get Ecological Engineering you can build Great Farmers. Both will be national units to prevent spamming them, and require alot of hammers.

I will leave Dancing Hoskuld and strategyonly to decide these.

Another suggestion: I don't think Fur should be a catch-all resource for any animal with hair, historically certain furs were much more valued than others, and since it's a happiness resource instead of a health one I think the original intent was to have it represent these rarer pelts that are unusually soft/warm/pretty and assume that more common pelts were freely available.

Again with limited types of resources it was the only one that seemed to fit for all the bears and cats. The alternative is just have them not be able to make a resource at all.

Note that with the new "fake" resource system that there are many types of "fur" related buildings you can get if you have the right combo of resources. Such as Fur + Timber = Beaver or Fur + Clam (+ Coast) = Otter, and so on.

Maybe just restrict it to Polar Bears, Siberian Tigers, and Dire Wolves, so Fur is resource likely to be found only in the poles, like Bananas are likely only to be found near the equator.

Again since your placing it we could not limit that. For instance with the Great Farmer you can actually build Bananas near the poles.

And we should either add in another animal that turns into the cow resource (maybe Aurochs?) or get rid of the bison resource and just have subdued bisons provide cows. The species are distinct, but for gameplay purposes they are almost the same, just like Yak's and cows, or llamas and sheep.

Auroch and Mouflons are already being looked into for Cows and Sheep. However there are just not units made for them. We do have Yak, Llama buildings in the game already. Yak is Cow Resource + Peak and Llama building requires Potato resource + Peak. Note potatoes were picked for the Llama and Alpaca because they are native to South America just like Llamas. In addition Camels are linked to Incense because of similar reasons.

 

[Nevets_]

Again with limited types of resources it was the only one that seemed to fit for all the bears and cats. The alternative is just have them not be able to make a resource at all.

Well, not every animal needs to create a resource. It makes spotting those rare animals that can much more exciting. And cats and bears are still useful for military standards, caged animals, governor's meangeries, etc. If all the bears and cats and dogs gave fur, every civ would have it before the end of the prehistoric era.

Again since your placing it we could not limit that. For instance with the Great Farmer you can actually build Bananas near the poles.

I just mean civs that start near the poles are likely to get fur earlier since those types of animals spawn in tundra, and civs that start near the equator should get banana and incense earlier since those types of animals spawn in deserts/jungles.

 

[strategyonly]

I guess the word "caged" then is a bad word to describe what i meant:

In ancient history, tanning was considered a noxious or "odiferous trade" and relegated to the outskirts of town, amongst the poor. Indeed, tanning by ancient methods is so foul smelling that tanneries are still isolated from those towns today where the old methods are used. Ancient civilizations used leather for waterskins, bags, harnesses, boats, armor, quivers, scabbards, boots and sandals. Tanning was being carried out by the South Asian inhabitants of Mehrgarh between 7000–3300 BC. Around 2500 BC, the Sumerians began using leather, affixed by copper studs, on chariot wheels.

So what i was then trying to saying only have then "tanned" for hides etc et al "caged" But you guys are coming up with some good ideas.
I will leave all the SA stuff to DH, he can have the headache

 

[NotSoGood]

What happens when you 'place' a resource on the map on top of another (unrevealed) resource? Does it overwrite the hidden resource, or not allow you to do it at all? If it doesn't allow you, does it use up the unit trying or is the placement button disabled on that tile, (which would let you use animals to scout for uranium) ?

Currently it should be completely disabled to place resources on existing ones. There is no special effects, you just can't place the resource. But I thought now that the unit which places the resources is so much more rare it can't be used much to scout hidden resources.

In V6 you could place resources on the map with workers, and it seemed to me to get quickly out of hand, and I was always worried that placing that extra fur resource would overwrite the coal or sulfur I had yet to reveal. I like the idea of being able to place bonuses in theory, but it could be really easy to abuse if it's not limited.

Resource placing should be more harder now, I'm not even sure if I reduced it too much. The great farmer is limited to one unit per player, it is quite expensive and the build consumes the unit.

What about a great person-like system:

• You get one free Great Shepherd each time you research one of the hunting/animal techs, and a free Great Farmer each time you research one of the farming techs. You can't build them until much later.
• All players get them when they research the correct tech, not just the first one there.
• You can attach a Great Shepherd to a subdued animal like you attach a Great General to a combat unit.
• A subdued animal (with the Great Shepherd promotion) can be used up to create it's resource in an empty tile, and a Great Farmer can be used up to create a plant resource you already have access to, in an empty tile.
• Once you get Cloning you can build subdued animals with the Great Shepherd promotion (but only those you whose associated resource you have access to), and once you get Ecological Engineering you can build Great Farmers. Both will be national units to prevent spamming them, and require alot of hammers.

Interesting idea, that players could get great farmers from researching farming techs.

 

[Dave_Oz]

Hey guys great mod, but i can't seem to enable archer bombard at all? I can select it in the bug screen in game, but it doesn't seem to actually give me the option anymore for my archers.