Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

The snowballing crime effect and sheer amount of animals really cramping my enjoyment of the mod at the moment

If you do not check Peace among NPCs (leaving it Off), the animals are not overrunning everything. You will have more Preds vs Prey though so getting those herding animals is a bit more of a challenge.

I still have not had this "snowballing crime effect" in my current games with v37. So I don't see it to comprehend it. Of course I never let my crime (if I can help it in any way) ever get above 100. And I do Not build the Crime bldg that gives Exiles until much later in the game unless I'm too close to some game start neighbors. And I can still control my crime levels. But then just until v37 release I have never really used SM or HS Options.

I'm using SM now to get a feel for it. But I would like to know how you get a split stone thrower to recombine? In fact I've split a ST and then 20 turns later spilt one of the original split ST units again! And all still have the 0.66 str. :crazyeye: But I can not recombine any of them! So the only use I can see is for game start faster scouting and not much else. :p

JosEPh
 
Have a look below. I had 7 Enforcers in this city built still was having thieves emerge. I understand why but it just seems to be snowballing beyond control. Yes it is the way to go to keep Crime below 100 but easier said than done sometimes.

Prcatically every anti-crime building is in place and one Enforcer has the Inspections Promotion.

I have tinkered with game speeds so ignore the dates ( don't see how that would affect this phenomenom though)

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2 Enforcers in that city is Not enough. You have to build enough to get that +5 Crime/per turn down to -x Crime/turn. Better stick at the very least 2 or more Enforcers in there and have them solely on Crime Fighting. Letting that Crime level even to get above 500 is Bad. When you saw that city's crime level get above 100 you should've acted. To let it ride up to 500+, well that is asking for the trouble you are having. You have enabled some very serious Individual Crimes like Murder, Rape, and kidnapping in your city. Build up that Police force Asap! You have a ancient Gotham City on your hands now! :p

And if you have any more buildings available like the current build Executioner's Hut get them qued up too. You hit +800 Crime and that city will cave in like a house of cards. All out effort on crime is now mandatory to get that city to recover. And don't neglect in this process of getting enough Food built and enough Happy giving building to reduce those angry citizen. You now have a multi-layered problem with the root cause as rampant crime.

EDIT: Never ever let early cities get above +100-149 Crime. And leave those Crime buildings that give Gold Alone! They are an early city trap. Find other ways to make gold/turn.

JosEPh
 
That's sort of my point. I did have Sentry Posts, Walls etc and an Enforcer and it still got out of hand.....

Even when I had 7 Enforcers crime was still increasing or at least not decreasing.

Thanks for your input though
 
You had 7 enforcers in that particular city? Where did they go? And why did you remove them?

Are you also using Revolutions Option? And When was this game started? Under v37? Or before?

And finally Who is your Leader? Does he/she have a negative trait that give +Crime/turn? What Difficulty level you playing with?

And What modifiers in GameSpeedInfos did you "tinker with"!?

JosEPh
 
You had 7 enforcers in that particular city? Where did they go? And why did you remove them?

Are you also using Revolutions Option? And When was this game started? Under v37? Or before?

And finally Who is your Leader? Does he/she have a negative trait that give +Crime/turn? What Difficulty level you playing with?

And What modifiers in GameSpeedInfos did you "tinker with"!?

JosEPh
I had to put them back into my other cities to prevent them tipping over 100 in Crime. Seemed wiser to have one city out of control than 6 on the way there- as I said it wasn't working anyway

Yes, Rev is on which is causing greater difficulty, its Monarch difficulty I think. None of the Traits impact Crime as far as I know.

I have basically doubled the research and build times of Eternity
 
I really like the Crime part of the game.....A while back I had a self-imposed rule of 1 Law Enforcer per 10 pop...it worked great...kept it a real challenge with Crime at times peaking in certain cities because of the nature of the city.

Now it seems I need almost 1 Law Enforcer per every 1 pop....
 
Every city should have multiple enforcers on Eternity. Especially with Rev On.

And there are other Modifiers in other xml files that will be impacted by your specific Game Speed changes. You've created your own problem I'm afraid. And Eternity GS just makes it worse. Sorry.

JosEPh
 
Every city should have multiple enforcers on Eternity. Especially with Rev On.

And there are other Modifiers in other xml files that will be impacted by your specific Game Speed changes. You've created your own problem I'm afraid. And Eternity GS just makes it worse. Sorry.

JosEPh
I accept that might be the case although the game is very balanced overall
 
I'm using SM now to get a feel for it. But I would like to know how you get a split stone thrower to recombine? In fact I've split a ST and then 20 turns later spilt one of the original split ST units again! And all still have the 0.66 str. :crazyeye: But I can not recombine any of them! So the only use I can see is for game start faster scouting and not much else.
To merge, you must bring 3 units of the same type to the same tile, have all 3 be healthy, none be grouped, none having moved this round, all be the same unit and group volume. At that time, on any of their control panels you'll see a 3 ring mesh action symbol for merge. Select that symbol and it will popup for you to select the other two units you are merging with.

You can't split an already split stone thrower since that brings their group volume down to solo. (If you're playing with Size Matters Uncut and are able to do that then there might be a bug with SM Uncut.) That's strange and not something I've seen possible. Is it possible that you had trained another stone thrower and split that one?

The splitting aspect is strategically useful in three ways:
1) For early scouting, yes. Wanderers are solo units so cannot further split and as explorers they cannot merge or split anyhow but it does help for that first stone thrower unit to split them up and send each individual on his merry way - likely to his death eventually but he'll manage to get some land revealed first and the survivability is not much less than that of the party sized group.

2) Splitting defenders to cost attackers more attacks to take a plot.

3) Splitting combat units and then giving them bottleneck promotions so they can take full combat advantage of their lower group volume and more numerous unit count. This can work with surrounding. Very tricky to make this beneficial though because the lower strength is really disadvantaged. On the vanilla combat engine this option would probably be more valuable.

Usually on SM, you'll want to merge your military units to obtain greater strength. But criminals, ruffians, law enforcement, healers, strike teams, none of these can split or merge. So it's units like swords and archers that can become truly massive.

You're also limited to being able to split or merge as many times as the count of the eras you're in, Prehistoric counting as one, then you can split or merge one more category further in Ancient and so on. At a point, you won't be able to build enough units to have them merge to the max so it becomes a real judgement call whether you have enough in your primary spearhead units, understanding as well that very small group sizes like heroes can be very powerful against these giant forces if they are developed with the bottleneck promos. Of course, highly merged units can also take advantage of the swarm promotionline to counter bottleneck completely, but then those units usually aren't so great against equally matched large forces either.

Thanks for trying it btw. If nothing else just so you can see how it blends with other mod elements will be helpful for you as a team member. And I think it shows some personal growth :D I think both of us have experienced a lot of that in the last year as a result of our teamwork.

A while back I had a self-imposed rule of 1 Law Enforcer per 10 pop...it worked great...kept it a real challenge with Crime at times peaking in certain cities because of the nature of the city.

Now it seems I need almost 1 Law Enforcer per every 1 pop....
Law Enforcement units are not as effective as they were because they cannot develop their anti-crime promos out to the max any further, nor do they get a free one to start, and the earliest ones don't have as high a crime fighting base as the old Town Watch used to, but they do come into play earlier. You will probably need more of them, yes, but what I've been finding is that anti crime buildings are built too late to avoid sparking the booster rockets of crime that criminal spawns can become if you build all production buildings first. You really have to blend in some anti crime building efforts throughout the process of building up your production and food or it's too late and the city has taken off with crime. If you let this happen, you'll find it can take upwards of 15 Enforcers to take care of a problem like you have there. This gets a little easier later in the game as LE units expand in their capacity to fight crime with more base, more promos, more buildup stages they can reach with fighting crime.

I also noticed that the little bit of added crime from banditry is a huge problem for your first cities, which is good. I believe we now have made it so that if you build the bandit's hideout, you can maintain it while you switch off banditry so when you're on banditry, unless you're very good at fighting crime, get off it as soon as you can, especially for the benefit of your newly planted cities.

For a complete breakdown of the criminal spawn mechanism: This is the latest explanation, written as an addendum to the v37 Player's Guide. Should be VERY informative.


You also talked about the animals. I've been considering reducing spawn rates a bit further still but some of the latest tweaks seem to be getting a better balance of spawns at least. I'm also not sure that it's beneficial to the game to let them be without maintenance costs because it's allowing me to hoard so many it's getting ridiculous. I thought I'd like that but I'm not so sure now. I like being able to get a lot of hunting in but it might be nicer to not be able to hold onto SO many. Certainly better for the processer than to have hundreds of animals build up in your cities.
 
You also talked about the animals. I've been considering reducing spawn rates a bit further still but some of the latest tweaks seem to be getting a better balance of spawns at least. I'm also not sure that it's beneficial to the game to let them be without maintenance costs because it's allowing me to hoard so many it's getting ridiculous. I thought I'd like that but I'm not so sure now. I like being able to get a lot of hunting in but it might be nicer to not be able to hold onto SO many. Certainly better for the processer than to have hundreds of animals build up in your cities.

Instead of animals costing gold (the old way), could they cost a mixture of food or gold.

If in a city they cost food (say 1 food for every 4 animals).

If kept outside the city (to stop a possible exploit on food usage) they cost 1 gold for every 4 animals. To pay for and transport the food. Or something similar.
 
Instead of animals costing gold (the old way), could they cost a mixture of food or gold.

If in a city they cost food (say 1 food for every 4 animals).

If kept outside the city (to stop a possible exploit on food usage) they cost 1 gold for every 4 animals. To pay for and transport the food. Or something similar.
hmm... I'll consider that. I've considered adding a food upkeep system for units in general previously. This seems like such a small thing but could really be part of something larger.
 
You can't split an already split stone thrower since that brings their group volume down to solo. (If you're playing with Size Matters Uncut and are able to do that then there might be a bug with SM Uncut.) That's strange and not something I've seen possible. Is it possible that you had trained another stone thrower and split that one?

Nope I split my only ST at game start. I lost one of the three. I brought both survivng split STs back to my city to guard and 1 to heal. Once they healed I was able to split 1 of the split units again. As I stated ALL 4 split, 1 original split and the 2nd unit double split units, had 0.66 str. But I can't recombine.

I saw the ring thing only once and that was right after I split the 2nd split. But I have not been able to get it back. Cause it showed right after I did the split and not again since.

And I have both SM options On. I think I can get you a save if you want it.

JosEPh
 
Nope I split my only ST at game start. I lost one of the three. I brought both survivng split STs back to my city to guard and 1 to heal. Once they healed I was able to split 1 of the split units again. As I stated ALL 4 split, 1 original split and the 2nd unit double split units, had 0.66 str. But I can't recombine.

I saw the ring thing only once and that was right after I split the 2nd split. But I have not been able to get it back. Cause it showed right after I did the split and not again since.

And I have both SM options On. I think I can get you a save if you want it.

JosEPh
All 4? When a unit splits it becomes 3 units. Did you possibly leave one of a couple you started with unsplit somehow? If there's weirdness it's gotta be due to Uncut. Ugh... I wish I didn't have to have that option in there. Uncut is not how the system is supposed to work so it's been provided as a patch to a complaint and doesn't get much testing. I'll have to run a quick test to see if Uncut is allowing a split at solo group size.

You can recombine them if 3 are on the same plot, none have moved this turn, none are damaged, none have taken a quality increase, none are loaded on a ship and none are part of a larger selection group (so make sure to split any selection groups up). There are some more prerequisites for allowing a merge but those are the main things that stop players from being able to merge when they think they should be able to.

I'd be happy to look at a save if you feel you're meeting those conditions and it's not being made possible. A bug that allows a split at solo might be causing similar trouble with merging afterwards.
 
2 Enforcers in that city is Not enough. You have to build enough to get that +5 Crime/per turn down to -x Crime/turn. Better stick at the very least 2 or more Enforcers in there and have them solely on Crime Fighting. Letting that Crime level even to get above 500 is Bad. When you saw that city's crime level get above 100 you should've acted. To let it ride up to 500+, well that is asking for the trouble you are having. You have enabled some very serious Individual Crimes like Murder, Rape, and kidnapping in your city. Build up that Police force Asap! You have a ancient Gotham City on your hands now! :p

And if you have any more buildings available like the current build Executioner's Hut get them qued up too. You hit +800 Crime and that city will cave in like a house of cards. All out effort on crime is now mandatory to get that city to recover. And don't neglect in this process of getting enough Food built and enough Happy giving building to reduce those angry citizen. You now have a multi-layered problem with the root cause as rampant crime.

EDIT: Never ever let early cities get above +100-149 Crime. And leave those Crime buildings that give Gold Alone! They are an early city trap. Find other ways to make gold/turn.

JosEPh
I learned that the hard way lol! I hated it at first but then when I realized I was the one doing it wrong it actually became a fun challenge to make these cities recover and tbh I have now never had so much fun with crime, I thought of it as NYC or Chicago in the 20s and 30s. I also realize Crime is easier to Manage in the later Eras.
 
What I've taken to doing, even though it's probably a bit of overkill, is sending out each tribe or settler with one each of my current law enforcement, medical, and educational units, as well as either a hunter or a dog for protection and, if I have a state religion when I put together the settlement expedition, a missionary. (The protection detail is probably a bit light in some people's eyes, but I rarely settle at any serious distance beyond my current borders. If I was going more than about three turns' movement beyond them, I would probably add to the protection, but for trips with minimal exposure, this is adequate.) This gives a decent city garrison for starting up, keeping crime and disease under control until I can get local LE and medical units into production. Once my usual starting build queue is done (which varies depending on what local resources need to be developed and the state of my current technology), I typically increase the garrison to three each of LE, medical, and educational units, and then keep an eye on those properties whenever I complete another build queue or notice a danger sign - normally either unsanctioned criminals becoming visible or unhappiness/unhealthiness cropping up. Education isn't normally a problem, but if crime or disease go positive or even look like they're seriously heading that way, I'll usually respond by increasing the garrison by three of the appropriate unit. Most cities never go to more than the basic force of three of each, even a heavily developed core city doesn't usually go to more than six medical or LE units, and only a few (almost always heavily targeted by foreign criminals) ever go beyond nine LE units - I don't recall ever needing more than six medical units. Note than I don't consider the units attached to colonization efforts as part of the garrison; they're usually only in the city until the settler unit completes building.

Like I said, this is probably overkill, but once I get much beyond Sedentary Lifestyle, I rarely have any difficulty with crime or disease unless someone is targeting me, and even then, it doesn't usually get out of hand. The key to dealing with these problems is prevention; it's much easier to stop the problem ahead of time than it is to recover once it becomes established. By contrast, when I move into a city I've taken over from another empire - typically the only time I have to deal with crime or disease in any significant amount - I need to bring in a "flying squad" of LE and medical units, normally nine of each to bring things under control quickly. Once I move into the "conquering" mindset, where I'll have to deal with this sort of thing on a more regular basis, I'll form a few of these flying squads and move them to newly taken cities until they can build their own garrisons - it doesn't usually take the squad very long to get things under control, and after they are under control, the local units can keep them that way unless something odd is going on.

Again, prevention seems to be the better way to go. If you don't let things get out of control, you're almost always in a better position than if you have to recover.
 
I learned that the hard way lol! I hated it at first but then when I realized I was the one doing it wrong it actually became a fun challenge to make these cities recover and tbh I have now never had so much fun with crime, I thought of it as NYC or Chicago in the 20s and 30s. I also realize Crime is easier to Manage in the later Eras.

What I've taken to doing, even though it's probably a bit of overkill, is sending out each tribe or settler with one each of my current law enforcement, medical, and educational units, as well as either a hunter or a dog for protection and, if I have a state religion when I put together the settlement expedition, a missionary. (The protection detail is probably a bit light in some people's eyes, but I rarely settle at any serious distance beyond my current borders. If I was going more than about three turns' movement beyond them, I would probably add to the protection, but for trips with minimal exposure, this is adequate.) This gives a decent city garrison for starting up, keeping crime and disease under control until I can get local LE and medical units into production. Once my usual starting build queue is done (which varies depending on what local resources need to be developed and the state of my current technology), I typically increase the garrison to three each of LE, medical, and educational units, and then keep an eye on those properties whenever I complete another build queue or notice a danger sign - normally either unsanctioned criminals becoming visible or unhappiness/unhealthiness cropping up. Education isn't normally a problem, but if crime or disease go positive or even look like they're seriously heading that way, I'll usually respond by increasing the garrison by three of the appropriate unit. Most cities never go to more than the basic force of three of each, even a heavily developed core city doesn't usually go to more than six medical or LE units, and only a few (almost always heavily targeted by foreign criminals) ever go beyond nine LE units - I don't recall ever needing more than six medical units. Note than I don't consider the units attached to colonization efforts as part of the garrison; they're usually only in the city until the settler unit completes building.

Like I said, this is probably overkill, but once I get much beyond Sedentary Lifestyle, I rarely have any difficulty with crime or disease unless someone is targeting me, and even then, it doesn't usually get out of hand. The key to dealing with these problems is prevention; it's much easier to stop the problem ahead of time than it is to recover once it becomes established. By contrast, when I move into a city I've taken over from another empire - typically the only time I have to deal with crime or disease in any significant amount - I need to bring in a "flying squad" of LE and medical units, normally nine of each to bring things under control quickly. Once I move into the "conquering" mindset, where I'll have to deal with this sort of thing on a more regular basis, I'll form a few of these flying squads and move them to newly taken cities until they can build their own garrisons - it doesn't usually take the squad very long to get things under control, and after they are under control, the local units can keep them that way unless something odd is going on.

Again, prevention seems to be the better way to go. If you don't let things get out of control, you're almost always in a better position than if you have to recover.
Great strategies and its sounding like the adjustments ARE acting as intended. I use similar protocols when spreading cities and have attempted the same thing with floating response teams (but I always get them lost so I may need to rename them so that I can remember which ones are intended for floating response and which ones aren't.) This floating response mechanism is something very similar to what I've been planning for military city defense for the AI as well.

I've made things a little easier now just to help smooth things over for folks that are newly experiencing things and to slow the sudden jolt of upwards surge of crime that takes place from spawning criminals since they should now be a little slower to emerge and do so with some limits based on city size, but it won't stop a city from becoming Chicago, especially around the time Chicago was gangsterland. I'm really going to need to get onto the AI for this stuff because when a nation really wants to get hostile with criminals it can be even more fun. There are elements in place for modern and later on this stuff that if I can get the AI to use it right can really be quite surprising. mwa ha ha. lol.
 
Glad to help out with the testing. ;)

I'm really going to need to get onto the AI for this stuff because when a nation really wants to get hostile with criminals it can be even more fun.

Oh, believe me, I'm aware. :rolleyes: My current game is closer to the Italy of the Borgias and Machiavelli than Chicago of the Roaring 'Twenties and 'Thirties, but it has been devastatingly effective. Half the world's empires and territory under my control, most of that happening in a single turn? Yikes! That threw a wrench into my plans! Not a setback, but I had to readjust so much I may as well have tossed my old plans and rebuilt.
 
Guess I just need to accept that I need more LEs in my cities.

Interesting reading Galodiron I think I literally have only built a handful of Medical Units in my games......maybe Trait related.....

Edit: I see the changes to Crime in SVN...will try and report back"!
 
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Does anyone else think Trained Cats are a bit(a lot in fact) overpowered relative to their costs and support cost? I am "secretly" destroying my neightbours using Ambushers/Stalkers in combination with my insanely frightening panthers of death (Trained Cats), with a high base strength of 5, that totally ignores movement costs from terrain, can move two plots, are invisible to most units(!) gets HUGE surround bonuses, decent withdrawal bonus, strong attack promotions (savage beast), strong strenght promotions(predatorial bloodlust), ability to promote to Guerilla and Woodsman for extremely strong defense on hills/forest, its owners civ is never revealed and finally its ability to attack cities with high defense that for other units would normally would require first battering down defenses before an attack was even possible. After using Trained Cats to destroy all units in another civs city my Ambusher moves in to make the city a barb city. I can then decide whether I want to take the now barb city to conquer for my own, or just leave it be (especially if my empire is getting to large) so I can kill units, to get great general xp, unit xp and take loads slaves whenever the barb city spawns new units (which are easily killed). Or if I decided to conquer the city I can usually contact the previous owner and return the city to them, actually making them grateful to me! (lol hehe). Also the AI does not seem to use Trained Cats or even produce them. This all results in huge great general points generation for my civ, along the obvious result of my civ being able to conquer even my best friend neighbour civs almost without diplamatic repercussions (the only diplomacy hit seems to a -1 to "this war is not going to well for us").

Dont get me wrong, I actually think this is great fun gameplay (also I am playing as Egypt right now, it does fit the Egyptian theme I think to use cats ;) ), I just feels that trained cats are way to strong for their pricetag. Maybe up their +1 gold support cost to +3 or +4?
 
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