Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I do think it would seriously be best to ban political parties entirely and let candidates be judged for who they are and what they stand for individually. The tribalism is killing us.
Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)
- Thread starter strategyonly
- Start date
Wasn't that more of cold war insanity?
That is USA wanted to have countries under its influence no matter what cost?
Yudishtira
Spiritual/Creative
It led to the murder of tens and hundreds of thousands.
What are you saying? How does that make it okay?
I meant that USA simply didn't want USSR influence around world.
I didn't say, that methods they used were okay.
The blame lies partially with the USA, that is true. But these horrible systems existed in some form in Latin America even before the Cold War or US involvement, going back to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simón_Bolívar#Personal_beliefs - no, that is not an excuse. But you are still staying several orders of magnitude below the murders of either the communists or the fascists, and the perpetrators themselves were as far removed from libertarianism as possible. The other two horrors I mentioned (Lysenkoism, Berlin Wall) are completely unmatched by the West, so (to put the two sides on an equal footing regarding crimes) at least the first horror, certainly the biggest one, should be more of a match regarding the Western countries. There are different numbers out there about the communist death count up to almost 150M (https://scottmanning.com/content/communist-body-count/). The lower estimate is about 42M (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes#Estimates). Compared to several 100k as your upper estimate. Not to mention that Saddam was a socialist himself, so that shouldn't count for the West. And if you don't accept the reason raxo gave you, the same reason cannot be applied either whenever the Eastern Bloc forcefully put an "uprising" down (GDR 1953, Hungary 1956, Czechoslovakia 1968, Poland 1981).
I recommend watching the documentary "Nuclear Savage".
Link to a review/commentary
Link to "vimeo" where one can watch the documentary on demand streaming (5$).
It shows an example from the west that outshines Lysenkoism in cruelty.
It's well worth it, well made and widely recognized as a serious documentary.
The Berlin Wall is imo outmatched in cruelty by Israels blockade of Gaza.
The unprovoked Scandinavian terror bombing of Libya is not something to be proud of, we wiped the country off the map (it is still not a unified country), allowed it to become a safe haven for Jihadist, and just watched the persecution of sub-saharans on a general basis in the aftermath of Qaddafi's fall.
Link to a review/commentary
Link to "vimeo" where one can watch the documentary on demand streaming (5$).
It shows an example from the west that outshines Lysenkoism in cruelty.
It's well worth it, well made and widely recognized as a serious documentary.
The Berlin Wall is imo outmatched in cruelty by Israels blockade of Gaza.
The unprovoked Scandinavian terror bombing of Libya is not something to be proud of, we wiped the country off the map (it is still not a unified country), allowed it to become a safe haven for Jihadist, and just watched the persecution of sub-saharans on a general basis in the aftermath of Qaddafi's fall.
Esfera
Warlord
- Joined
- May 28, 2018
- Messages
- 111
I was wondering.
If Zoroastraism gives a nerf to slavery due to its historical negative views in the aspect.
And Ngaiism reduces the duration of the unhappiness caused by whipping.
We should give a positive bonus to slavery if Mormonism is present in a city to improve realism and differenciate this religion from others.
Young and Smith (first Mormon prophets) were inmensely racists (in the original sense of the word) and tend to view slavery, especially those of the black and indian people, as a very good thing because they believe that so called "coloured" are descendents from Cain, Lamanites and Demons, so they and their seed deserved to be punished forever, denied priesthood and denied afterlife Godness in the Mormon Pantheon.
If Zoroastraism gives a nerf to slavery due to its historical negative views in the aspect.
And Ngaiism reduces the duration of the unhappiness caused by whipping.
We should give a positive bonus to slavery if Mormonism is present in a city to improve realism and differenciate this religion from others.
Young and Smith (first Mormon prophets) were inmensely racists (in the original sense of the word) and tend to view slavery, especially those of the black and indian people, as a very good thing because they believe that so called "coloured" are descendents from Cain, Lamanites and Demons, so they and their seed deserved to be punished forever, denied priesthood and denied afterlife Godness in the Mormon Pantheon.
CULTURE
SVN 10188.
Has the way culture is given to a winning civ at war changed?
I was attacked by China, after many, many turns I captured 4 cities including the original Capitol.
But the cultural tiles remain the same as at the start of the war. So the cities I captured are starving down to 1 pop. as there are no tiles to work.
I am in the Renaisance era and I am sure it did not previously work like this. But it is along time ago I got this far in the tech tree.
Any advice?
SVN 10188.
Has the way culture is given to a winning civ at war changed?
I was attacked by China, after many, many turns I captured 4 cities including the original Capitol.
But the cultural tiles remain the same as at the start of the war. So the cities I captured are starving down to 1 pop. as there are no tiles to work.
I am in the Renaisance era and I am sure it did not previously work like this. But it is along time ago I got this far in the tech tree.
Any advice?
Sounds like the option Minimum City Border is off.
If you have Fixed Borders activated you can always try to have a cheap unit occupy every tile so it stays your culture.
If not then you can try mass producing culture bombing units (e.g. bards) and make the captured cities produce Culture instead.
Even if that isn't enough you can go into WorldBuilder and give culture to your recently captured cities until they can push back the Chinese sphere of influence.
If you have Fixed Borders activated you can always try to have a cheap unit occupy every tile so it stays your culture.
If not then you can try mass producing culture bombing units (e.g. bards) and make the captured cities produce Culture instead.
Even if that isn't enough you can go into WorldBuilder and give culture to your recently captured cities until they can push back the Chinese sphere of influence.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I would keep it that way too since with it on there can never be a capturing of a city by culture. The culture bombing with entertainers while defending against cultural revolt with LE units is the way to eventually get back on top of things. Every round the opponent culture is fading while yours is growing so you should be able to win some territory from the enemy eventually. Conquest has always been difficult to secure, even when the enemy forces are decimated the people have a will of their own that is hard to win over.
At late games there are 2 problems
1 == AI builds 100's sometimes thousand of cheap units like celebrity or programmers slowing the game horribly. this is for sure as my turn time reached 1 hour, then i posted in forum and they deleted all units. turn time reduced to 1 min. but in 30 turns AI again build the units and turn time collapsed. some sort of upscale like the way for special units or cap on number of units on a tile is needed.
2== most wonders need milky way or such stuff. lots of space units and wonders hence to enjoy that you need space maps.
1 == AI builds 100's sometimes thousand of cheap units like celebrity or programmers slowing the game horribly. this is for sure as my turn time reached 1 hour, then i posted in forum and they deleted all units. turn time reduced to 1 min. but in 30 turns AI again build the units and turn time collapsed. some sort of upscale like the way for special units or cap on number of units on a tile is needed.
2== most wonders need milky way or such stuff. lots of space units and wonders hence to enjoy that you need space maps.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
1. The Story Telller line has not yet been expanded beyond Celebrity which only fits up until the late Modern Era. Ideas on their abilities and art are needed to extend the line to the later eras. The same is probably true of the programmers. I know it is true for the not yet released diplomat line.
they need to be capped. my cities production is about 15000 per turn average. AI cities are larger. thus they can produce 100 programmers / celebrity per turn!!
thus in late ages, early ages unit cost should move up or obsolete or capped. else once unit count crosses 5000, the game crashes every 2-3 turns
thus in late ages, early ages unit cost should move up or obsolete or capped. else once unit count crosses 5000, the game crashes every 2-3 turns
I disagree. The most important property of any political system, according to Cicero, is its stability - the fact that this system doesn't come crashing down all by itself. If you don't even have the minimal state, which is the case of Anarchy, how long do you think it would take the Mob to rebrand their enforcers as police, their protection money as taxes and themselves as the government? The new system, which would come into being after this, would be anything but a minimal state.
Cruelty wasn't exactly what I was going for here. Aside from the fact that Lysenkoism could easily have killed far more people than the nuclear tests (by enforcing the use of sub-standard grain, potentially leading to mass starvation), the danger here is more subtle: "Switching off" modern science (or at least its methods) would have very long-lasting effects, none of them nice at all. You cannot even say what exactly is going to happen, but I assure you there is no upper limit of damage. Worst case: We lose a few vital decades / centuries and are thus unable to stop a killer asteroid. This is a "crime against humanity" of a completely different kind.
And regarding Gaza: Do you know how many missiles the refugees fired on the GDR? Exactly zero. In fact, a single missile fired over that particular border could have sparked something that would make all of these examples look like schoolyard scuffles. Whereas the citizens of Gaza willingly elected a terrorist organization into power.
The Arab-Israeli conflict is probably the longest ongoing conflict in the world, and it is always strike and counterstrike. In this case it may be important to remember how all of this started (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal–Weizmann_Agreement - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Nebi_Musa_riots). I think it is safe to say that the Arabs blamed the Jews for the British violating their agreement with the Sykes-Picot Agreement. Even before that, there was the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Moshe_Barsky - as you can see, the Arab side of the conflict can hardly claim self-defense when they pretty much started the conflict. Yes, it's about time that this conflict ended. But I think the Israelis can demand that firing the missiles stops first.
Sure, the consequence of stupidity (Edit: also laziness and caution) can often be worse than that of cruelty. I was mostly trying to put forward some nuance to the notion of western exceptionalism.
(Edit: I added in "caution" back there because it can make technological progress go too slow to avoid an extinction event ^^ so laziness is a crime against humanity. Cruelty can on the other hand sometimes speed up technological progress and is therefore also better than... doing the right thing.... wait... how did I get here. ^^ I'm not really serious in these edits, just playing.)
I wouldn't say that being wrong about science in itself amounts to crimes against humanity, it's just stupidity.
The execution/imprisonment of over 3000 scientist because they opposed the wrong science is mostly what amounts to the cruelty of Lysenkoism, which was basically just more of the regular cruelty of Stalin and those other fascist who held power in the soviet Union at that time.
I can agree that the consequence of Lysenkoism was worse than the consequence of dropping the equivalent to 1000 Hiroshima bombs on the Marshall islands with little regard to its inhabitants health (no one were killed by the bombs directly, though 10's of thousands were treated as guinea pig, exposed to unhealthy amount of radioactivity (still are in parts of the island groups), relocated too late from the islands, relocated forth and back between american science stations, and in the end relocated too early back to their home islands (many never returning to their homes at all).). That's the premise of how I weighted one against the other in my previous post, a focus on cruelty.
That is hardly relevant to a comparison of the horrors of the Berlin wall situation and the Isreal-Palestinean situation. Why would Germans want to start a war with the Soviet Union right after loosing world war 2.... The Berlin wall was the result of the most devastating military defeat in history, while the isolation of the gaza strip, occupation of land, and the general power abuse Israel force upon Palestinians is something else entirely.
A completely broken population will turn to, and trust in, whoever they perceive to fight for their betterment.
The extent of Hamas being a terrorist group is somewhat debatable, many would see them as freedom fighters (a resistance to occupation), most Palestinians do, the more secular Palestinians (a dying breed within Palestinian land as a brutal existence drives most people into religious extremism) see them as a necessary evil.
It started with Arabs wanting independence from British overlordship, the Jew minority may have been a catalyst for Arabs urge for self determination, but they were in any case a third party that complicated the Arab wish for independence, one that created extra tensions regarding how such an independence would look like both internally in the Arab population, and externally in the Jewish population and within Britain.
The murder of Barsky was just that, a murder, not a justification or excuse for what came after, the guilty party should have been tried and punished and that should have been that (The rule of law and judicial system in palestine at that point left much to be desired, I'm sure.).
The prehistory regarding who started what here is not really all that interesting, all sides had their somewhat reasonable reasons at that point. It's the event of the last 60 years where stuff really got lopsided in that conflict.
This is an interesting page containing loads of information and statistics about the conflict between Israel and Palestine.
Link to main page, examples: Fatalities before Operation "Cast Lead" ; Fatalities during Operation Cast Lead ; Fatalities since Operation Cast Lead
To me it looks like the Israel government is the terrorist organization in that region.
Article from human rights watch on the events of 2017
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
You haven't said the state doesn't run the military, which would be the definition of a socialist program. So you haven't stated that it isn't a socialist program. You've just admitted that some socialist programs are necessary for the running of a state.
What nation that doesn't ensure, to at least a decent degree, the health of its citizens, has any right to govern said citizens? Particularly when the reason for this deficiency in health care is because of the massive overspending it places into a military that already dwarfs those of even its top rivals combined? We have some serious flaws in our priorities and a lot of it is thanks to throwing around the socialism label like it's an automatically bad thing. IF it was, then we should privatize the military as well.
There is a scale between anarchy (there is no state) and totalitarianism (everything belongs to, and is controlled by, the state). I am not an anarchist, but what is sometimes called a minarchist (cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night-watchman_state). Since, as I pointed out, a true anarchy is not going to work in the long run, it is not a viable option as far as I am concerned. So it is not socialist programs that I think are necessary, but being the slightest bit away from the anarchy end on that scale.
Do you think that the USA is a libertarian state? If it was, you wouldn't have almost 21.5 trillion $ national debt according to http://usdebtclock.org/ - in fact, the US public sector has never been completely debt free, the closest (with respect to $ without considering inflation) was in 1835 with a national debt of 33,733.05 $ according to https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo1.htm (interestingly, before that time the debt was already much higher). This is an important reason why debt interest is rather high - anyone trying to take out a loan has to compete with the government, not to mention that this drives up inflation.
The primary duty of a government is protection from violence (as far as that is possible), and that is the foundation of any "right to rule". It is also a duty where the government can make use of its primary ability, the selective application of violence. OTOH this ability does nothing for a health care system or an educational system. A good government is a schoolyard bully turned "good", who agrees to use their abilities to provide for a good place to exist instead of a bad one. But I wouldn't go to that person to get an injury treated.
It seems like those eternal multiplayer games are dead as dinosaurs.
If you plan to get back to those games, you may as well start new game on Kation's space map and use no or rescaled latitude limits mod with it.
Or play without it and accept that only equatorial animals are spawning and that you can build only "warm" buildings.
Map equator is close to Earth equator on Kation's space map.
Blitz (1000 turns) speed should be fine, although exploration and colonization could feel laggy when it comes to tech progress.
Earth on Kation's space map is similar to those Large Earth scenarios, that are here with mod.
You could even try Ultrafast with Upscaled Research (and Construction if you want additional slow down) Costs.
Blitz tech cost modifier in percentage before rebalance:
400*0.5 = 200.
Ultrafast tech cost after rebalance with Upscaled Research Cost:
630*0.25*1.4 = 220,5
If you plan to get back to those games, you may as well start new game on Kation's space map and use no or rescaled latitude limits mod with it.
Or play without it and accept that only equatorial animals are spawning and that you can build only "warm" buildings.
Map equator is close to Earth equator on Kation's space map.
Blitz (1000 turns) speed should be fine, although exploration and colonization could feel laggy when it comes to tech progress.
Earth on Kation's space map is similar to those Large Earth scenarios, that are here with mod.
You could even try Ultrafast with Upscaled Research (and Construction if you want additional slow down) Costs.
Blitz tech cost modifier in percentage before rebalance:
400*0.5 = 200.
Ultrafast tech cost after rebalance with Upscaled Research Cost:
630*0.25*1.4 = 220,5
Last edited:
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
You aren't really seeing my point and while I see the completely irrelevant point you're making that we need a balanced and measured amount of military, you're not countering what I'm saying. The military is a socialist program because private citizens do not run it. And it is a proof of concept that socialism does, in some cases, work. Sometimes quite well. The military is, counter to expectations of a social program, very efficient and well run.
No I don't and thank god it isn't. We at least have a police force and fire departments and elementary schools. We aren't completely thrown to deregulated wolves looking to turn our life and blood and dreams into profits for their own greed. And it's irresponsible allocations of our tax dollars causing trouble more than anything and most of that irresponsibility is our bloated military spending. The GOP always manages to promise it's people all kinds of cuts but all they end up doing is cutting taxes for the wealthy and spending more than ever, leading to massive deficit increases. The only Presidents to reduce the debt have been Democratic ones despite being more forgiving to lower income taxation and generally spending more on social programs and socialized industry efforts. You might say that the GOP is not truly libertarian but they are moreso than the Dems and whenever they take charge the economy seems to really move (because the rich are happy and thus rewarding the nation with their participation) but it always leads to an inevitable bubble and collapse that they time for when a Dem is likely to take power because people are sick of the hypocrisies and open warfare.
Libertarian and GOP would remove regulations with the complaint that regulations are holding back industry but the only reason for any regulation is to keep businesses from screwing people over and polluting with abandon. The financial paths of least resistance are NOT the healthiest ones to society.
Why would that be of any benefit to anyone if it wasn't to ensure the best possible well being of the people? Otherwise, suppression of the people into an oppressive system so they cannot violently overcome their oppressors and create a 'better way' is no valid justification for a government at all. The people aren't always the victim of violence. Sometimes it's the unjust rulers that are rightfully the target.
This is not the definition of socialism. The lawful use of violent means is the core of the state, it is what the state is best at. But this doesn't transfer to creating good healtcare or educational systems. It is also much simpler than the economy (if we wanted a real simulation of an economy, the number of different resources would be in the billions, each citizen would have to be modeled independently, and the spatial resolution would have to be at or around square meters/yards - OTOH the military aspects of the game are a lot closer to the real thing).
Regaring the core of the state I would - hesitatingly - include infrastructure as well, because there is no real option of competition (and AFAIK we can see in both of our countries that the government isn't really able to keep up a good infrastructure), and the currency (because a currency accepted by everyone is the only known way to overcome the barter system, which didn't even do well in ancient times and which would completely break down with the billions of resources we have today - again, the government has done a spectacularly bad job at keeping inflation at bay, perhaps because the government is also the biggest debtor in the economy). So, even the minimal state would have its problems, but it might still be the "sweet spot" on that scale I mentioned.
The police force would still be a part of a libertarian state, fire departments could also exist (with a higher percentage of volunteer firefighters), but - you are right there - public elementary schools wouldn't. Instead, there would be more home schooling (which today isn't even legal in Germany), self-organized neighbourhood schools, religious schools and tuition-based schools. In a well-established libertarian state (yes, I am not really speaking about transition periods, although that would have to be taken care of) there would be private examination services with well-known reputations, so as soon as you could pass these examinations you would go there, pay a fee and sit the exam.
The last time the debt really went down (just a bit and only for two years - according to https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo4.htm) was in 1956 - 1958, when the President was ... Dwight D. Eisenhower. Anything else might have been a reduced deficit, but not a reduced debt. And if you blame Reagan for his increased debt during the Cold War, you would also have to blame FDR for the massive debt increase 1941 - 1945 (48B -> 258B).
Isn't that the slightest bit exaggerated? Here are some numbers: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.KD.ZG?locations=US - the last two downswings might have been in 2001 and in the second term of GWB, but before that there was a downswing during Bush sr.'s term (GOP, but not at all in favor of Reaganomics) after a massive GDP growth (more than 7 % in 1984) and before that one of the biggest downswings in the last 50 years between 1978 and 1980.
It would be even more effective if the authorities didn't sometimes even enforce the screwing over and the pollution, only to fine the business who had warned them in the first place (cf. http://www.cracked.com/article_20048_5-big-news-stories-that-left-out-most-important-part.html - No. 3).
That's really an "all or nothing" mentality. You don't see the benefit of not having to fear being shot from a dozen different directions just for leaving the house? You don't see the benefit of not having groups of people accost you in the middle of the street and taking all your money / assets? Only to encounter a second group who shoots you because there is nothing left for them? Or whenever you are buying something in a store not having to fear a group of people storming the store, shooting everyone and taking all they want? Or you can replace these muggers with foreign military if you want, and pretty much any other country would do if yours was an anarchy. Don't even start with "they wouldn't do that", there are far too many groups / nations powerful enough to overcome an anarchy for you to be certain of their motives.
