Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

[Somebody613]

I use the Quality Upgraded units to good effect, it makes them better even if after that unable to take any more promotions. By the time you CAN upgrade it's Quality it's got so many promotions anyway that it doesn't need new ones..

I do agree that the splitting and re-merging of units is weird. I've stopped doing it as I found that Battlefield Promotions and Equipment Promotions are not stable and can be lost when splitting units.
I haven't tested it in a few versions though so don't know if that's been fixed.

LOST or GAINED.
In fact, BOTH had happened to me, indeed.

I disagree, I would never mind my One-Man-Armies to be at Maxed Strength, and that is QUITE a few levels up there - so Quaity-Up'ing them is very upsetting.

 

[Thunderbrd]

When I *split* a merged unit (just for testing), SOMETIMES one of the "fractions" gets a FREE Sign out of nowhere - and then I simply merge them back to hoard the Signs.

That'd be something happening in the python then, checking whenever a new unit is initiated regardless of the reason it has been. Come to think of it, I may have already fixed that exploit I was talking about earlier...

 

[Thunderbrd]

Also, I still disagree with Quality-Up being a stumbling block trick - especially since it doesn't even WARN you about it, it just happens.
It could be very frustrating for the NEW players, though it's also ugly frustrating for the OLD ME as well.
I would really change it to "back to FULL zero", so you at least can retrain your unit effectively, not just give up on it the moment you decided to Quality-Up it.
It's simply unfair, admit it.

It would be unfair to other promotion choices if it didn't reset things brutally. You will never change my mind on this.

I mean let's see... take current str times 1.5 OR give a 10% combat modifier, or even +1 base str, or ANY other promotion and there's never going to even be a comparison. Unless your current str is terrible as it is, which would be the case with some more civilian type units.

 

[Yudishtira]

It would be unfair to other promotion choices if it didn't reset things brutally. You will never change my mind on this.

I mean let's see... take current str times 1.5 OR give a 10% combat modifier, or even +1 base str, or ANY other promotion and there's never going to even be a comparison. Unless your current str is terrible as it is, which would be the case with some more civilian type units.

Why are you comparing it with one other promo, when you lose a minimum of your nine(ish) next promos by taking it?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Why are you comparing it with one other promo, when you lose a minimum of your nine(ish) next promos by taking it?

Because it's worth nineish promos to take it. Particularly since if you earn back enough XP to take the next one then it's current str * 1.5 * 1.5 It's ridiculously powerful and deserves careful planning to earn the rest of the promotions you might want before you proceed into it and lose all ability to promote for some time to come.

Let's stress test this through the decision making process, shall we?
Let me just ask a series of questions that should illuminate how this is balanced:

1. Is the reduction in XP enough to get you to hesitate in automatically selecting it?
2. If you didn't have the reduction in XP, would you even consider taking a different promotion when this becomes available?
3. Does the loss of XP you would suffer cause you to NEVER select this promotion? Or is it STILL worthwhile to select the promotion even though it means you'll lose the ability to further promote for a long time to come?
4. Does the loss of XP make you wait and select other promotions for a while sometimes, depending on factors like whether you are trying to build to a bonus amount of value from an end of the chain promotion line selection, or how great your expectations are of the unit being able to overcome the XP deficiency so you can get back to a point where you can level again?

I have a feeling your answers will be much the same as mine and that's why it is only balanced with this severe a drawback.

 

[Yudishtira]

Because it's worth nineish promos to take it.

Well I was wrong about nineish, it's more like four. Obviously it's not worth nineish promos, since even Combat I-V have already given you the same 50% bonus.

It might be the most OP promo, but there are certainly others (Bottlenecks, Sniper, a lot of higher-tier ones frankly). It just seems a bit arbitrarily singled-out, for such a huge penalty.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Well I was wrong about nineish, it's more like four. Obviously it's not worth nineish promos, since even Combat I-V have already given you the same 50% bonus.

It might be the most OP promo, but there are certainly others (Bottlenecks, Sniper, a lot of higher-tier ones frankly). It just seems a bit arbitrarily singled-out, for such a huge penalty.

More questions to consider then:
1) Do you ALWAYS take Bottlenecks, Sniper, and the other promotions that you are referring to as soon as they become available?
if not: Why?
2) Would you ALWAYS (with perhaps a few exceptions like the particular unit isn't a combat unit) take a Quality Up promotion as soon as it became available if it did not have this penalty? Do you ever hold off on taking it because it does?

Some of the promos you are pointing to being powerful ARE very powerful in specific cases but are not ALWAYS going to even provide a benefit depending on the situation.

Quality up benefits in ALL combats and is even more powerful than all five Combat I-V combined because of how much more potent it then makes the NEXT promotion selections, such as a strength gain (which then retroactively also gets multiplied by 1.5 (squared by how many previous quality ups you've taken)).

 

[Somebody613]

I still say the Quality-Up'ed unit should go back to "zero EXP, zero Levels", as opposed to "zero EXP, same Level".
You keep forgetting that you ALREADY had to reach a quite high Level simply in order to ENABLE Quality-Up in the first place.
So the unit is quite "well-trained" in any case - and it's NOT like you can Quality-Up right out of the factory gate (unless you hoard EXP boosts, but that's irrelevant).
So it doesn't really matter how "OP" the promotion is - if you need to quite a long way to even reach it to begin with.
And by that logic, merging gives you EXACTLY as much of a boost FOR FREE (EXP-wise) - yet I don't see you demanding that "only high-Leveled units COULD merge".
You are free to mod your game in any way you want - but I'm also free to disagree with the logic of your decisions, when those are not exactly logical to begin with.
It's not like I'd stop playing the game or, worse, would start hating you for some stupid decision.
I simply disagree, we discussed it, you don't feel like budging - so I can either keep it as is, or, ya know, MOD it MYSELF for my own taste, loool.
It wouldn't hurt YOU in any case, so whatever, lol.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I still say the Quality-Up'ed unit should go back to "zero EXP, zero Levels", as opposed to "zero EXP, same Level".
You keep forgetting that you ALREADY had to reach a quite high Level simply in order to ENABLE Quality-Up in the first place.

I'm not forgetting that. It doesn't change the answers to the balance questions I posed does it?

So the unit is quite "well-trained" in any case - and it's NOT like you can Quality-Up right out of the factory gate (unless you hoard EXP boosts, but that's irrelevant).

It's not at all irrelevant considering how much XP you can give new units. Most of my units end their first round of promo selections with either a quality up OR I hold that off if I think they can survive battles without doing so so that I can promote them a bit further before locking them in with the qualityup.

And by that logic, merging gives you EXACTLY as much of a boost FOR FREE (EXP-wise) - yet I don't see you demanding that "only high-Leveled units COULD merge".

A unit can only merge with units of the same quality though. And no, it's not a requirement that you have to be at a particular level to merge, but that's intended to make the two things very different in what they mean, even if they have exactly the same size rank +1 effect. SOME units cannot merge at all and can ONLY gain quality to compare to that ability.

I simply disagree, we discussed it, you don't feel like budging - so I can either keep it as is, or, ya know, MOD it MYSELF for my own taste, loool.
It wouldn't hurt YOU in any case, so whatever, lol.

Most people do like having their cake and eating it too and get pissed when they can't. But that doesn't make for a good design. The frustration is intentional because it forces you to make choices that are not easily made. If you keep having to debate with yourself over whether it's time or not to take that quality promotion, I've done exactly what I meant to do - create tension in the player's inability to make a clearcut decision. Of COURSE you're going to find that frustrating. That's kinda the point. They tried this sort of choice regarding upgrades but since upgrading is a necessity, I didn't feel it was a fair section for this to work on. Still, that's why I created the unlimited xp option to begin with so it's not like I don't understand. I think once you do mod it to your liking, you may see why it is the way it is... or not. Who knows. All I can do is speak for how it's intended for the main mod. And I don't think it's worthy of its own unique option because I'm usually a little reluctant to create options that require other options - not that I haven't but I resist it because I find they confuse new players as to what was really 'intended'.

 

[irishhombre]

A quick question, why can't clone workers build vertical farms? Also why doesn't silk farm upgrade to vertical farm?

 

[Somebody613]

I'm not forgetting that. It doesn't change the answers to the balance questions I posed does it?

It's not at all irrelevant considering how much XP you can give new units. Most of my units end their first round of promo selections with either a quality up OR I hold that off if I think they can survive battles without doing so so that I can promote them a bit further before locking them in with the qualityup.

A unit can only merge with units of the same quality though. And no, it's not a requirement that you have to be at a particular level to merge, but that's intended to make the two things very different in what they mean, even if they have exactly the same size rank +1 effect. SOME units cannot merge at all and can ONLY gain quality to compare to that ability.

Most people do like having their cake and eating it too and get pissed when they can't. But that doesn't make for a good design. The frustration is intentional because it forces you to make choices that are not easily made. If you keep having to debate with yourself over whether it's time or not to take that quality promotion, I've done exactly what I meant to do - create tension in the player's inability to make a clearcut decision. Of COURSE you're going to find that frustrating. That's kinda the point. They tried this sort of choice regarding upgrades but since upgrading is a necessity, I didn't feel it was a fair section for this to work on. Still, that's why I created the unlimited xp option to begin with so it's not like I don't understand. I think once you do mod it to your liking, you may see why it is the way it is... or not. Who knows. All I can do is speak for how it's intended for the main mod. And I don't think it's worthy of its own unique option because I'm usually a little reluctant to create options that require other options - not that I haven't but I resist it because I find they confuse new players as to what was really 'intended'.

Well - to each their own.
By far not the first (nor the last) issue I will have with the mod, that will differ from the "official opinion", lol.

 

[Somebody613]

One more thing (probably a wrong place, but I'm posting all over the place anyways).
Some units (and buildings) have "buggy" information as to what they require to be built (sometimes it's civics, sometimes it's MYSTERY).
For example:
I researched Military Tradition, but the Great Chief isn't shown even in the Hidden units - he's simply not there at all.
I checked the Pedia - it merely requires the tech and some metals (and ONLY that).
I HAVE those already - and even switched to the latest civics (just in case, though Pedia DOESN'T require it).
Still NO Great Chief ANYWHERE - and no HINTS as to WHERE he's hiding.
I really HATE such issues - yet I keep seeing them more often than I'd ever liked.
Here's the SAVE - but I was considering NOT uploading it in the first place, because this issue is wider and is related to something OBSCURE.
Note: Not the very latest SVN, but something like last week's, and the general issue is a common nuisance ever since forever, so the version is irrelevant.

 

[Thunderbrd]

One more thing (probably a wrong place, but I'm posting all over the place anyways).
Some units (and buildings) have "buggy" information as to what they require to be built (sometimes it's civics, sometimes it's MYSTERY).
For example:
I researched Military Tradition, but the Great Chief isn't shown even in the Hidden units - he's simply not there at all.
I checked the Pedia - it merely requires the tech and some metals (and ONLY that).
I HAVE those already - and even switched to the latest civics (just in case, though Pedia DOESN'T require it).
Still NO Great Chief ANYWHERE - and no HINTS as to WHERE he's hiding.
I really HATE such issues - yet I keep seeing them more often than I'd ever liked.
Here's the SAVE - but I was considering NOT uploading it in the first place, because this issue is wider and is related to something OBSCURE.
Note: Not the very latest SVN, but something like last week's, and the general issue is a common nuisance ever since forever, so the version is irrelevant.

What's a Great Chief?

 

[Thunderbrd]

A quick question, why can't clone workers build vertical farms? Also why doesn't silk farm upgrade to vertical farm?

@raxo2222 Couple of good questions here maybe you'd like to address.

 

[irishhombre]

What's a Great Chief?

IIRC: It's a powerful unit that has hidden nationality. I use it to harass my enemies and create captives. Also has limits on how many you can build.

 

[Thunderbrd]

It's a powerful unit that has hidden nationality. I use it to harass my enemies and create captives. Also has limits on how many you can build.

Isn't that a Warlord? Ah... I think of it as a WarlordI as it is named in the XML.

 

[Yudishtira]

I think a Great Chief is what a Warlord becomes when you capture one. It is not buildable.

 

[Dr. Elephant]

They can be upgraded normally even after they obsolete.

Thanks for the info, but it was not really the point of my question, which I can resume in two points:

Firstly, in term of strengh, the Obsidian Neanderthal warriors have the same as their metal upgraded version, which make them useful even if you happen to not have metal in your territory. The notable exception was, as I mentionned before, their version of the Obsidian Swordman, which have one strenght over his regular version making it having the same strenght as the first regular swordman. In older versions, it only could upgraded once you get iron, which was well after the others Neanderthal warriors, which you upgrade not by obligation, but rather by mere choice: to obtain the, latter and stronger, Swordman units. But now, as they become obsolete at Sedentary Life, they are replaced by their normal Obsidian Swordman version, which I think, was not really an upgrade at all.

And secondly, why do they have to become obsolete in the first place? I mean, if you start as Wrud, by the end of Prehistory Era, you have a couple of cities in your control (in my case, normally 10), all giving you the Neanderthal culture bonus, so making the Neanderthal units all becoming all obsolete, in only one turn (and that include the Neanderthal Mammoth Rider, the Neanderthal Workboat, the Neanderthal Wise Woman, the Neanderthal Worker, and the Neanderthal War Dog), don't really represent the situation in which your empire are. So, why having changing them from the older versions (as choices you have to made), in which you could had, even, build Classical Neanderthal Workboatm, as you managed to still well alive far into the timeline?

 

[raxo2222]

@raxo2222 Couple of good questions here maybe you'd like to address.

Clones not being able to build vertical farm is very old bug, as for silk farm upgrading to vertical farm I guess someone was against that.

 

[Yudishtira]

Clones not being able to build vertical farm is very old bug

You can stop it getting any older by fixing it...