Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

[Thunderbrd]

Maybe there should be a devastation mechanic like Stellaris. After pounding a city for awhile the city graphical style converts to a ruined graphical style. During this phase the city is now "devastated" and incurs increased unhealthiness, disease, crime, unhappiness, instability, lower production, lower food, lower commerce, lower wealth, and lower culture. It also cripples the city defense by eliminating places for snipers to fire down from, therefore it creates negative defense.

In essence the city should then easily favor the attacker over the defender, or the attacker can simply wait and the city will revolt just like the Paris Commune at the end of the Franco Prussian War. With options like "realistic siege" or "zones of control" the city can only be entered if it has been induced into this devastation phase.

After awhile if not further bombarded the devastation disappears and the city graphics changes back to normal looking architecture, the penalties therein removed. Though devastation should last for some time even after the city has been captured to make occupation difficult for the conqueror as well as to slow down conquest from snowballing.

Will look to include in v832

 

[JosEPh_II]

Edit: I apologize if I offended you, was just being a bit cheeky I thought.

And I was getting grumpy because it would take me a full page of typing to even describe what I'm seeing in the game now. Rereading my posts, I definitely come across as super grumpy! Sorry about that. Frustration had me in it's tentacles and was eating my lunch. :/

I do have a question:
1. What does a story teller/Bard/etc actually get/give to it's city when in Patriot mode? Culture? Something else? I can't seem to figure out what it actually gives.
Case in point:
I have 14 Bards in Patriot mode in my city which is in Lesser Culture build. I cannot see any effect the Bards have on keeping my city from eventually flipping over to an AI city that is on a main continent. And my city on an island is 5 tiles away in the sea. This is with the Game Setup Option Realistic Cult Spread On. The AI ciity is now size 16 and next turn my city will be size 8. The rate of Culture disparity is now over 600 points per turn. The Popup with the angry Red Citizen now flashes off and on every so many turns. I have already lost 4 tiles on the Northside of City center tile. I'm down to 42% while the AI is at 57%.

If I come out of Lesser Culture to build the cheapest Prod. or Culture bldgs to add to my Culture total the disparity leaps by over a 100 points per turn. When I build needed buildings.
Of the 14 Bards I have bought 9 of them by boats from my continent to bolster that island city.

I'm losing the Culture battle and I see no way of even stopping the AI's increasing influence.

And here is the real Kicker for Bad Luck. I just founded Judaism. Guess where the Game AI decided to place it for its Holy City?! Yeah! right in that soon to be Culture flipped Island city! Gee Whiz! The One Religion I worked hard to get.

Oh and that AI that will flip my City, it now has 16 cities to my 10. (soon 17 vs my 9). And this is a Monarch Diff game on Normal GS, 6AI Babrs On Neander Cities On.

I don't take defeat very well...in single player. But in Multiplayer as T-Brd the WAR DOG found out, if I realize I can't win, it's scorched earth implosion time. I will leave you Nothing to use. By the way, I gave T-brd that Name, "War Dog" from our MP games years ago.

Okay I've rambled enough.

 

[Toffer90]

I do have a question:
1. What does a story teller/Bard/etc actually get/give to it's city when in Patriot mode? Culture? Something else? I can't seem to figure out what it actually gives.

TB knows better than me, but I think it just reduce the probability of the city flipping by culture, I think it can reduce it to zero probability as well if you have enough of the value the bards give in patriot build up. I would guess its zero percent chance when you have +100 national stability value in the city, note that criminal units present in the city does add negative national stability value to that total. It doesn't accumulate over turns, i.e. it's not a per turn addition thing.

 

[JosEPh_II]

TB knows better than me, but I think it just reduce the probability of the city flipping by culture, I think it can reduce it to zero probability as well if you have enough of the value the bards give in patriot build up. I would guess its zero percent chance when you have +100 national stability value in the city, note that criminal units present in the city does add negative national stability value to that total. It doesn't accumulate over turns, i.e. it's not a per turn addition thing.

Too bad that Patriot mode does not boost local culture. Since I never play with Rev On the times I have lost a city to Culture flip in the past was small. I have lost cities under the old "ways" don't get me wrong. But...since I am trying to get to the Ren Era (to test Civic interaction) losing a game to Culture flipping before even getting to Med Era is not helping. Even dropping my Diff level down to Monarch is a real challenge now using Realistic CS Option On. I suppose I'll just have to stop using RCS for awhile too.

 

[Thunderbrd]

And here is the real Kicker for Bad Luck. I just founded Judaism. Guess where the Game AI decided to place it for its Holy City?! Yeah! right in that soon to be Culture flipped Island city! Gee Whiz! The One Religion I worked hard to get.

Aaaand THAT is the reason for DP. I'd had about enough of that.

1. What does a story teller/Bard/etc actually get/give to it's city when in Patriot mode? Culture? Something else? I can't seem to figure out what it actually gives.
Case in point:
I have 14 Bards in Patriot mode in my city which is in Lesser Culture build. I cannot see any effect the Bards have on keeping my city from eventually flipping over to an AI city that is on a main continent. And my city on an island is 5 tiles away in the sea. This is with the Game Setup Option Realistic Cult Spread On. The AI ciity is now size 16 and next turn my city will be size 8. The rate of Culture disparity is now over 600 points per turn. The Popup with the angry Red Citizen now flashes off and on every so many turns. I have already lost 4 tiles on the Northside of City center tile. I'm down to 42% while the AI is at 57%.

Supposed to make it so that it resists cultural flipping. Won't change happiness or culture levels but should resist the will to flip, BUT there seems to be some potential bugs in the math there somewhere? Might be an overload, which would be strange but maybe...? @Blazenclaw I believe reworked the math on that, or flabbert or someone, and since then we've had some reports of overloads in the equation, which really should be easy to correct but I haven't looked personally at it for a long time.

Too bad that Patriot mode does not boost local culture. Since I never play with Rev On the times I have lost a city to Culture flip in the past was small. I have lost cities under the old "ways" don't get me wrong. But...since I am trying to get to the Ren Era (to test Civic interaction) losing a game to Culture flipping before even getting to Med Era is not helping. Even dropping my Diff level down to Monarch is a real challenge now using Realistic CS Option On. I suppose I'll just have to stop using RCS for awhile too.

The 'works' event that destroys them most of the time I would have liked to see be either a passive ongoing culture generation boost with a buildup option and promo options. There are also tags in place that could represent really nice bonuses at particular points on that skill path that give happiness for the unit being present but I don't think they've been developed out yet. Basically you're touching on a WIP I've had in mind for a long time to get them working a bit more like you want them to. Maybe we could work together on this where I can point you in the right directions to implementation and we could work out some concepts? I wanted the patriotism thing to be a little separate but some overlap between the two skill paths could make sense too. All of this was also being sorted out in my conceptualization for a gradual split between entertainers and educators (being that in many ways in the modern era a lot of 'entertainment' is more mind rot than education.)

 

[Blazenclaw]

Supposed to make it so that it resists cultural flipping. Won't change happiness or culture levels but should resist the will to flip, BUT there seems to be some potential bugs in the math there somewhere? Might be an overload, which would be strange but maybe...? @Blazenclaw I believe reworked the math on that, or flabbert or someone, and since then we've had some reports of overloads in the equation, which really should be easy to correct but I haven't looked personally at it for a long time.

The 'units' category shows the reduction in revolt chance from patriotism and similar cultural garrison effects; in the pic, my spiked clubmen that just took a city are providing a 6% reduction, basically. I don't think I changed the math, just fixed a small bug or two and made it more visible. I do want it changed tho such that one cannot get 100% revolt reduction and avoid culture flipping, and might sneak this in for the next svn ver.

Spoiler Pic :

 

[Toffer90]

Too bad that Patriot mode does not boost local culture. Since I never play with Rev On the times I have lost a city to Culture flip in the past was small. I have lost cities under the old "ways" don't get me wrong. But...since I am trying to get to the Ren Era (to test Civic interaction) losing a game to Culture flipping before even getting to Med Era is not helping. Even dropping my Diff level down to Monarch is a real challenge now using Realistic CS Option On. I suppose I'll just have to stop using RCS for awhile too.

Cities will flip just as easily without RCS as with RCS. Just get more bards to stop the city from flipping due to culture.
Patriot build up will protect your cities from flipping from culture, it will not protect your cities from revolting due to the revolution option mechanics.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The 'units' category shows the reduction in revolt chance from patriotism and similar cultural garrison effects; in the pic, my spiked clubmen that just took a city are providing a 6% reduction, basically. I don't think I changed the math, just fixed a small bug or two and made it more visible. I do want it changed tho such that one cannot get 100% revolt reduction and avoid culture flipping, and might sneak this in for the next svn ver.

Spoiler Pic :

View attachment 652126

The bug reported is in the city total, not the unit total. So if you look at the tooltip inside the city where you're showing, you'll see the total amount of the revolt chance, right? Well the reports have said they are seeing units with clearly beneficial results on their stats, after moving out of the city, causing the city display to look like the chances of revolt went down rather than up when you'd expect down, and up rather than down when you'd expect the reverse. The suspicions from some of these guys is also that we're hitting an overflow somehow in the total values of local revolt resistance that boil down to the % chances. We MIGHT need to put reasonable caps to keep that from happening. I asked Toffer to review the equation formula and maybe he found something to fix? If its working I'd just like confirmation it's been corrected or that someone tested it to show it's working correctly and ran some tests on a case with say hundreds of units with modifiers present to see if it CAN overflow.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Cities will flip just as easily without RCS as with RCS. Just get more bards to stop the city from flipping due to culture.
Patriot build up will protect your cities from flipping from culture, it will not protect your cities from revolting due to the revolution option mechanics.

How many Bards will I need? I already have 14 in a city (size 8) that will soon be flipped by an AI city (size 16) that is 5 or 6 tiles away with 1 or 2 tiles of water(ocean) between them. If I take that city off Lesser Culture the rate of culture increases for the AI city rather sharply. I have to import bards from 2 cities that are 3 turns away by Galley. 4 of the 9 tiles on that Island are already flipped to AI control.

 

[Blazenclaw]

How many Bards will I need?

I'm looking at balancing this soon. Do you think it should be the case that with some number of bards, it should be possible to remove revolt risk altogether? Or should it be the case that more and more bards will half the risk, then make 1/3 the risk, then 1/4 the risk, etc, never actually hitting 0 risk (but making it potentially very small)? I think it is currently supposed to be the latter (more bards reduces the risk but not eliminate), but may or may not be working correctly.

Edit: Also, mouse over the culture bar in city view. It should tell you the impact your units are having. See the picture in this post: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ideas-discussions-thread.377892/post-16403941

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'm looking at balancing this soon. Do you think it should be the case that with some number of bards, it should be possible to remove revolt risk altogether? Or should it be the case that more and more bards will half the risk, then make 1/3 the risk, then 1/4 the risk, etc, never actually hitting 0 risk (but making it potentially very small)? I think it is currently supposed to be the latter (more bards reduces the risk but not eliminate), but may or may not be working correctly.

Keep in mind LE units have a natural impact on this as well and it's also one of their trainable abilities. Pretty sure it was possible to eliminate all chance of revolt with some ease if you tried but the fly in the ointment would be any criminals with revolution sentiment hiding out there fouling up your efforts. The scoundrels were meant to be stronger at this than most criminal types had been up to this point, to reflect the era of French and US revolutions and the rise of gov resistance efforts being a more organized effort with underground publishing. Obviously there needs to be some existing cultural pressure forming the basis of the chance.

 

[Thunderbrd]

How many Bards will I need? I already have 14 in a city (size 8) that will soon be flipped by an AI city (size 16) that is 5 or 6 tiles away with 1 or 2 tiles of water(ocean) between them. If I take that city off Lesser Culture the rate of culture increases for the AI city rather sharply. I have to import bards from 2 cities that are 3 turns away by Galley. 4 of the 9 tiles on that Island are already flipped to AI control.

The main trick now if it's working as designed, is to watch the chance of revolt and if you start getting some, these units can help to diminish them despite the cultural pressure. ALSO pushing culture into that city can counter it, but these units with this ability are meant to be a spot fix until you can really balance out the culture again.

 

[Blazenclaw]

Keep in mind LE units have a natural impact on this as well and it's also one of their trainable abilities.

I know for a fact this is currently bugged and increasing cultural revolt chance via units has no actual effect in the game currently; will be fixed soonish though, maybe v43.1 because it is an actual bug.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I know for a fact this is currently bugged and increasing cultural revolt chance via units has no actual effect in the game currently; will be fixed soonish though, maybe v43.1 because it is an actual bug.

Oh... good job on finding it!

 

[Toffer90]

I know for a fact this is currently bugged and increasing cultural revolt chance via units has no actual effect in the game currently; will be fixed soonish though, maybe v43.1 because it is an actual bug.

I recently changed it so that units that cause revolt actually work now, negative values were ignored in the code for no good reason.

 

[JosEPh_II]

ALSO pushing culture into that city can counter it,

How do I do that? Especially when my next city is also on an island 4 tiles away? I had Hoped the Bards on Patriot would provide some Culture on their own. That Isand city cannot produce anything except Lesser Culture, Once I que up any production builds or Culture build the deficit gets worse. Losing the Gold mine tile was a real kicker as that was a major source of Production that could be converted to Culture.

Do you think that Culture spread over water (sea/ocean) tiles should be a thing at all? If you do, then what is the reasoning for it to move across water as fast as a plain or valley tile?

 

[Blazenclaw]

If you do, then what is the reasoning for it to move across water as fast as a plain or valley tile?

If you're playing with Realistic Culture Spread, it does move less quickly over water. Coast and sea are 1 tile per 2 expansions, ocean is 1 tile per 3. Reef and coral are also significant obstacles. Maybe sea should also be 1 per 3, given RCS has ~2x the expansions of vanilla?

 

[Thunderbrd]

How do I do that? Especially when my next city is also on an island 4 tiles away? I had Hoped the Bards on Patriot would provide some Culture on their own. That Isand city cannot produce anything except Lesser Culture, Once I que up any production builds or Culture build the deficit gets worse. Losing the Gold mine tile was a real kicker as that was a major source of Production that could be converted to Culture.

Do you think that Culture spread over water (sea/ocean) tiles should be a thing at all? If you do, then what is the reasoning for it to move across water as fast as a plain or valley tile?

The entertainer units can invoke 'great work' missions. It doesn't add a lot and can kill them, usually does, but that's HOW they do it at the moment. This action also diminishes the amount of local revolt turns in the city they do it in.

Culture spread on water is a border issue and the interesting thing is it allows for units that can't normally travel out very deep to travel out further from land if its within your borders. CAN also enforce dec's of war on enemies trying to cross if the ships are military only types or transports, so can help you to guard your vulnerable lands-to-be settled from coastal intrusions.

 

[Zanzi]

Hi, I'm new to this mod. I think it's awesome Two questions I couldn't find an answer to:
The research beakers sometimes show '+x TD/WFL' (x being a number). What does it mean?
When adding the 'story' of an animal to my capital in the Prehistoric Era, it should give +1 beaker. However, the 'actual' is only like 0.16 beaker. I understand there are some penalties like early civics, but they don't seem to add up to about -85%. Can someone explain?
Many thanks, and keep up the good work!

 

[raxo2222]

Hi, I'm new to this mod. I think it's awesome Two questions I couldn't find an answer to:
The research beakers sometimes show '+x TD/WFL' (x being a number). What does it mean?
When adding the 'story' of an animal to my capital in the Prehistoric Era, it should give +1 beaker. However, the 'actual' is only like 0.16 beaker. I understand there are some penalties like early civics, but they don't seem to add up to about -85%. Can someone explain?
Many thanks, and keep up the good work!

TD/WFL is shorthand for Tech Diffusion/Win For Losing, I guess it was self-explanatory when you looked at game options but apparently not.
Folklore is done in such way, that they give 0.2 research per turn in Prehistoric.
But unlike in old version they spread themselves to all cities, meaning they get stronger as you place more cities - parity is at 5/7/10/20 cities in Prehistoric/Ancient/Classical/Medieval era.