Caveman 2 Cosmos

[Thunderbrd]

@Thunderbrd any idea on what buildings I could move to Language to make it more fun?

I know I was going to do a +1 Culture building there at some point, Territory Markings, and even added the button for it - if you want to do the XML for it I can check into the actual button path name - it's in place and unused. Could be interesting to have a second building option there. This would make for asking the player the question, which is more important, culture or education? A rather interesting question as it really depends on game options and difficulty levels as to what I think the answer actually is at that stage. And that's if the player goes the route of language first.

Just for the sake of discussing things out, what do we have that helps to balance out the other two tech options? Wasn't there a production building at Nomadism previously? I didn't see it this time through, so was it moved perhaps? Maybe it requires something this city didn't have access to...

I think it is an *interesting* idea generally, given the prerequisite that the rest of early gameplay can support making it interesting. Primarily just because it adds a unique progress point for the player. Instead of just wandering band of homosapiens > city, you can go homosapiens > settled farmers > city, or something analogous.
However I'm not going to go much into thinking about it, probably adding the "wandering era" or whatever will fulfill this role in a more interesting manner.

I was the initial one to suggest the Nomadic Start and still look forward to its eventual implementation. So sure, I see that point. And I didn't entirely take us all the way back to pre-civics changes level of first columns production vs tech progress balance - I tried to split the difference a bit and allow for some of the lengthening of that stage because I agree that we probably needed a little more time to play with the first units, just not quite THAT severe.

 

[Yudishtira]

I know I was going to do a +1 Culture building there at some point, Territory Markings, and even added the button for it - if you want to do the XML for it I can check into the actual button path name - it's in place and unused. Could be interesting to have a second building option there. This would make for asking the player the question, which is more important, culture or education? A rather interesting question as it really depends on game options and difficulty levels as to what I think the answer actually is at that stage. And that's if the player goes the route of language first.

Just for the sake of discussing things out, what do we have that helps to balance out the other two tech options? Wasn't there a production building at Nomadism previously? I didn't see it this time through, so was it moved perhaps?

I was the initial one to suggest the Nomadic Start and still look forward to its eventual implementation. So sure, I see that point. And I didn't entirely take us all the way back to pre-civics changes level of first columns production vs tech progress balance - I tried to split the difference a bit and allow for some of the lengthening of that stage because I agree that we probably needed a little more time to play with the first units, just not quite THAT severe.

As well as the 65% research penalty, there is also a 75% penalty on culture, and 80% on gold (in the only era where there is NOT too much gold). So a +1 culture building won't get you very far.

The gold and research penalties are too high to even pass a sanity check. Culture needs slowing down, so as long as there are civics you can prioritise to bring that down to 25% by Sed Life, it's probably okay.

Remember the other reason this was done was because all the civic options except the starting ones have been lumbered with huge gold penalties especially for expanding (or playing on big maps). He then had to make the starting civics even worse, so you couldn't stay in them either.

 

[Thunderbrd]

So a +1 culture building won't get you very far.

It'd help though. It would mean a lot of rounds knocked off the first growth rung. That might mean a LOT at that stage depending on options. I'm not trying to override another option in particular here nor intrude upon Joseph's design intentions (unless it's to really stretch out the initial opening of the game into something painful on longer gamespeeds), which both include the dramatic ramping up through civics unlocked throughout the prehistoric, and the workability of the single tile start option. Anything stronger than this, like a 5% mod or something, could be a little more stepping on the toes there. Perhaps if its too strong for the single tile option it may be given the notongameoption tag to keep it from being available there but I'm hoping it can be useful for both - hell... it was inspired by the thought that it might be more interesting to have some way to choose to accelerate the culture rung growth on that option if you choose it as a player. Joseph didn't want that really so I let it be, but this would be for a different reason, and as you say it shouldn't have TOO great an impact.

Also, to clarify @JosEPh_II: I setup the balance between production and research initially primarily based on how I wanted the game opening, so you could argue that I'm still stepping on your toes or you could try to understand that I'm willing to split the difference between how you want the opening experience to go and how I do and see the compromise being made rather than focusing on how much of your approach is being overridden. I understand we need to share visions here as much as we can.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The initial Civic giving Techs Should be a Primary focus early game. Not running around collecting Hordes of animals and overloading the usage of the myth and hunting rewards to the exclusion of getting better Civics.

Not true. In fact getting the animals and Myths should be the big priority in the first era. With the changes to the tech tree I am seriously considering having Sedentary Lifestyle rather than Writing be where the Myths change from being about science and becoming about education. The whole point of these buildings is to simulate the spurt in discovery that happened in the paleolithic era. Getting those Myths is what helps you get those Civic changes faster.

@Thunderbrd any idea on what buildings I could move to Language to make it more fun?

Just been reading a hypothisis that you can't have a language until you have fire to protect you from predators attracted by the noise.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I am seriously considering having Sedentary Lifestyle rather than Writing be where the Myths change

That would be interesting. Yet another sting for advancing the era that would make you rethink just how beneficial racing for a free tech might be here. hmm... Of course, you still have that same sort of quandry with getting writing too and there's already some of that at Sed Life as it is. Would also be a lot of work to just 'try it'.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

That would be interesting. Yet another sting for advancing the era that would make you rethink just how beneficial racing for a free tech might be here. hmm... Of course, you still have that same sort of quandry with getting writing too and there's already some of that at Sed Life as it is. Would also be a lot of work to just 'try it'.

Quite awhile ago I came to the conclusion that I need a program to write all the animal XML based on a UI that asks the right questions. Given that this is something I did a lot of back when I was working I just need to put my mind to it and get on with it. The UI design is close. The program would right out the XML for the art, animal, subdued animal, tamed animal (if any), all Myths etc. It would also do it for a new animal or all animals.

Another change I would like to make with the animals is to give more for getting animals outside your region. This would not be available on Raxo's map, of course.

 

[Yudishtira]

It'd help though. It would mean a lot of rounds knocked off the first growth rung.

Doesn't the -75% round it down to zero?

 

[JosEPh_II]

I don't see how building 15 brutes or stonethrowers because you have nothing else to build during that time is in any way interesting or challenging

Sorry T-brd but this is outright false statement. I'm playing an Epic game atm. If you look at what each tech provides and you get the ones that give you Meager Research, Culture, and Wealth you will never ever build 15 brutes or 15 of anything. Unless you are immediately at war from the very start of the Preh Era.

I'm using meager research and with 3 chasers, a scout, and 2 stone thowers I have more than enough units to hunt and defend. When I run out of Usable buildings I put on the Meager Research and shave 2-3 turns of a Techs time to research. I do this while the buildable building are increasing in the list until I have 4 or 5. Then I que them above the Meager Research.

This is possible for everyone to do as I have been doing it since the 1st early Civics change. And I'm on my 5th Pre Era playthrough as well with The Revamped Preh Tech tree. These games have been on Emperor or Immortal Handicap. And if you are using Diufficulty levels Lower than these 2 it is Even Easier.

Nope I'm calling you out on this T-brd. You have made a false accusation and assertion. It is your failure to check out the tech tree and the things each Tech gives or reveals that is Your Own problem.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@JosEPh_II: Sorry we have a disagreement on a fundamental design philosophy that we shouldn't be having cities sitting idle at the beginning of the game. Not sure why you would want that.

This does not happen either, Unless you are playing Eternity.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Not true. In fact getting the animals and Myths should be the big priority in the first era. With the changes to the tech tree I am seriously considering having Sedentary Lifestyle rather than Writing be where the Myths change from being about science and becoming about education. The whole point of these buildings is to simulate the spurt in discovery that happened in the paleolithic era. Getting those Myths is what helps you get those Civic changes faster

I will disagree with you because you completely overlooked or discounted my last statement.

and overloading the usage of the myth and hunting rewards to the exclusion of getting better Civics.

Yes you Need to hunt But you also Need to build your Civic base, and Build your City defense, and etc etc. C'mon DH read what I post.

 

[Yudishtira]

This is possible for everyone to do as I have been doing it since the 1st early Civics change. And I'm on my 5th Pre Era playthrough as well with The Revamped Preh Tech tree.

Here's the problem. Not only must you adopt Joseph's playstyle and follow it to the letter - you must do this in every single game you start.

Finally he admits that all strategic decisions have been taken out of the players' hands for the early prehistoric. This goes way beyond treading on toes. It must be stopped.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Here's the problem. Not only must you adopt Joseph's playstyle and follow it to the letter - you must do this in every single game you start.

Finally he admits that all strategic decisions have been taken out of the players' hands for the early prehistoric. This goes way beyond treading on toes. It must be stopped.

Yudishtira shut up. You sir are an offensive butthead. Nothing is further from the truth and you know it. But you you spout your Nonsense because we don't get along. Take your toy and go play some place else little boy.

Moderator Action: Please return to topic and stop the personal insults. They have no place in civil discussion. leif

 

[Thunderbrd]

Doesn't the -75% round it down to zero?

No. Commerce incomes in a city are granular enough to matter out to two decimals, which makes a big difference in culture at that stage. However, it does round down for purposes of the collection into national culture towards traits, but still it would matter later since it would help you get over that min of 1 to start building towards your first trait.

Sorry T-brd but this is outright false statement. I'm playing an Epic game atm. If you look at what each tech provides and you get the ones that give you Meager Research, Culture, and Wealth you will never ever build 15 brutes or 15 of anything. Unless you are immediately at war from the very start of the Preh Era.

I'm using meager research and with 3 chasers, a scout, and 2 stone thowers I have more than enough units to hunt and defend. When I run out of Usable buildings I put on the Meager Research and shave 2-3 turns of a Techs time to research. I do this while the buildable building are increasing in the list until I have 4 or 5. Then I que them above the Meager Research.

This is possible for everyone to do as I have been doing it since the 1st early Civics change. And I'm on my 5th Pre Era playthrough as well with The Revamped Preh Tech tree. These games have been on Emperor or Immortal Handicap. And if you are using Diufficulty levels Lower than these 2 it is Even Easier.

Nope I'm calling you out on this T-brd. You have made a false accusation and assertion. It is your failure to check out the tech tree and the things each Tech gives or reveals that is Your Own problem.

Ok, so you understand the statement that I had 11 rounds to research language and 3 rounds to build the Alpha Male, right? (Wife was getting 2 rnds to those buildings because she had a little better production start) So without any other techs for 8 rounds that gives me at least 4 units before I have even the first tech. So I get that and maybe switch civics and now cut my 1st tier techs down to just 10 rounds each and maybe 15 for the second column ones. Each unit is still only costing 1-2 rounds to train. And I get the Community Discussions which takes another 3 or so rounds and maybe somewhere in there I built the Alpha Female in 2 or 3 rounds so that takes up some of that. In the meantime I'm training a ton of units I really am not going to need - if I went for Nomadism I could make them more useful and they'd take a bit longer with wanderers BUT even then it's still a lot of wanderers with no other options to build during all that time. You cannot set yourself to meager research yet. If you beeline for that it's going to be a very long time before you have wanderers and if you try for anything other than that path, you WILL be wasting rounds either idling or training units you're probably going to disband for the sake of keeping gold above loss. So no, you don't HAVE to idle your city, but building unit after unit that are going to end up being a waste of space is pretty equivalent to idling. You end up hoping they get killed as they go exploring.

If you shoot to get the ability to use meager research, that's a few techs in on a specific path, which then makes Yudishtira exactly correct. You either idle, waste production on useless units, or you beeline down the route you are advocating is the golden solution. Doesn't leave much in the way of valid options there, and that's WHY you need to go down that research path, even more than for the civics themselves, so that when you are stuck with the city having nothing valuable to do, you at least have the research process to make use of your production.

If you instead allow a little better balance between production and research achievement rates (not advocating for them to be 1 building = 1 tech straight up like you're insinuating) then you can at least allow a little more variability and are not demanding that the player MUST take a particular route to keep from wasting their production. That's not a personal attack against you but an evaluation of how to resolve a problematic design.

You say that you'd 'only' have cities idling on Eternity (which makes it clear that's what you're trying to attack with this design) yet I'm finding the problem on Long, which is actually a rather fast gamespeed along the spectrum. You talk about the issue being one that plagues easier settings, yet I'm experiencing this on Emperor, one of the mentioned difficulties you don't think this would take place on.

A few rounds of testing and tree evaluation shows this new recosting of the first 4 tech columns seems to largely resolve the issue while splitting the difference somewhat. I really am not in a position where I NEED to compromise here but I'm trying to be workable - and respectful as well. Not sure why you can't meet me that far.

 

[JosEPh_II]

A few rounds of testing and tree evaluation shows this new recosting of the first 4 tech columns seems to largely resolve the issue while splitting the difference somewhat. I really am not in a position where I NEED to compromise here but I'm trying to be workable - and respectful as well. Not sure why you can't meet me that far.

How about you reciprocating for once in your tenure as Lead Modder. You made false statements and created an agenda, a false narrative. Then you pander to a known provocateur. I did not start this battle. You did. Acknowledge what you did.

The Civics have been changed 3 times now. Just Not the Default starting ones that Yudistira bawls about. And he's is a Major complainer about too much gold. I have quickened the pace of research twice already.

4 times I have posted that the base values and now the Tech tree order has changed and undermined what I'm Working thru on Civic change in the early game. Yet you, and and a vocal few, dissent and complain while many more players are Liking and appreciating what I'm trying to do thru Civic balancing. But like everything else If it doesn't please you specifically T-brd then it's "going against the design".

The Civics are building blocks and the 9 in the Preh Era are, for the most part, the foundation.

If your play is so locked in to a specific pattern that you can not adapt to the new changes then who is the one making everyone play the same way? You are.

I have Yudishitira on Ignore. I should Not have responded to his accusations and defamations, I know better. I just happened to see his response because I had not logged in yet to answer your criticism post, after 1 play thru with whisperr, and it triggered my disrespect and dislike I have for him as a poster and a person.

Moderator Action: This is completely unnecessary and uncivil. Misspelling another member's name and then announcing they are on ignore is against the rules. Staff tolerance is quickly evaporating. Please participate with civility and respect. leif

And 1 play thru does not make a decent nor objective rebuttal to a newer system. Yet you did. Why? Because whisperr did not like it? Really?

I just wish for once, just once you would let me finish something Before you tear it down. I know full well that when I do a project you Will come in and destroy it eventually. The evidence is in these threads over the past 4 years. It is undeniable. But everything you do is The Epitome of Perfection for the Mod. You have No flaws in your design or character. Your Design document is etched in stone and Woe to anyone that finds any fault with it. Prime example of your threat is here.

I really am not in a position where I NEED to compromise here

And this is your major problem. You can not compromise when other modders have other ideas that are just a valuable to the Mod as yours.

I will repeat it One More Time, the Civics are still a work in progress. Let that sink in. After the Late Classical and on they are a freaking Mess. What Civplayer8 tried to do with them and then what SO did to them later to "add more stuff", is still an ongoing problem in the mod. With all due Respect to SO, as this Mod's author and creator, he really screwed the Civics over. And you know it from our past conversations and the past corrections I have done from our discussion before I took on this horrendous project. And those changes and this project with your Blessings at those times.

If you want them changed you change them. I have spent hours and hours every day doing playthroughs of every change I've made. Yet in one playthrough, where the Mrs T-brd complains, you come in and make threats. Enough is enough T-brd.

Moderator Action: Yes, enough is enough. leif

 

[margolloxx]

Isnt this just a question of the upscaling of building production times option? The whole idling thing i mean

 

[raxo2222]

Isnt this just a question of the upscaling of building production times option? The whole idling thing i mean

Nope, for TB city using processes or building units to disband is just waste of time.
That is on beginning of game you should be building buildings, or build some units without disbanding them.
This is why TB made first 4 tech columns cheaper
Other response could be making early buildings more expensive.

Joseph will be readjusting civics 100 times before we stop touching techs, buildings and units

 

[JosEPh_II]

Joseph will be readjusting civics 100 times before we stop touching techs, buildings and units

No, I'm getting tired of all this. Now I know why the other Modders that tried to do Civic changes all left the Mod Team. Maybe Yudishtira can come in and placate T-brd and whisperr? All I tried to do was make the Mod better. Not easier. And all this is unwarranted selfishness because those offended can't play their special way like they always have. Adaptation skill at -1.

 

[billw2015]

I would suggest we need another lever to pull for balance that isn't civics. i.e. We shouldn't need to use civics to balance gold/whatever problems stemming from other parts of the design. That is usually bad design, and compromises one area to solve problems in another (potentially). Instead we should be treating the problems at the source where possible. For instance if there is too much gold being produced then we should look at the sources of that gold and decide which one we will adjust. For instance we could simply apply a multiplier to all building static gold output of 0.2. So instead of +1 gold you will get +0.2 gold per turn.

This allows us to turn the balancing problem into a tree where the leaves do not all need to be balanced against every other leaf, but only against the ones on the same branch (I think a lot of it might be like this already, with the era multipliers for instance). We can just balance buildings against each other (assume this is already done), and civics against each other, and then do final balancing with global multipliers. In this world if someone was to say "there's too much gold", we would decide if civics or buildings are the problem, and tweak their global gold multipliers appropriately.

Of course I haven't actually done any work in balancing this mod, but that is my intuition based on what I have seen so far

 

[Thunderbrd]

How about you reciprocating for once in your tenure as Lead Modder. You made false statements and created an agenda, a false narrative. Then you pander to a known provocateur. I did not start this battle. You did. Acknowledge what you did.

1) No statements have been made that were false
2) I was not creating an agenda. I made a change due to a response to stimulus. The game was out of whack so I fixed it. However, YOU HAVE had an agenda to try to annoy players that prefer longer gamespeeds and it is very clear from your choices here that you are trying to make that the game opening as aggravating as possible in a longer gamespeed environment, so as to generate more support for the agenda to remove longer speeds because you simply don't like it that other people enjoy the game in a different way than you apparently. So what, exactly, is MY agenda? Not like I'm trying to playtest Eternity here. Are you offended that I care to consider that there is always a balancing act between research and production progression that if it goes too far in either direction will make the game unenjoyable?
3) Yudishtira is not a provocateur. Like you, he simply has an opinion and is not afraid to share it. I'm not pandering to him. I didn't jump in to change anything on his behalf. I considered what he said and when I saw he was right, I did something about it.
4) I did all I could to fix the problem without starting a battle. I did not attack your design decisions but rather did a subtle thing that could make them work a bit better in general. I didn't ask or demand that you change anything. No battle here.

The Civics have been changed 3 times now. Just Not the Default starting ones that Yudistira bawls about. And he's is a Major complainer about too much gold. I have quickened the pace of research twice already.

This change is not about your civics and it's not about the majority of the game or even the prehistoric era. It's about the FIRST techs and that's it.

city using processes

This is long before processes are even possible, which is part of the problem.

And 1 play thru does not make a decent nor objective rebuttal to a newer system. Yet you did. Why? Because whisperr did not like it? Really?

It only takes one to see this kind of massively wide schism between the production and tech progress at that stage. NO amount of additional playthroughs would change that impression. I could open 50 games and they would all give roughly the same division, by %, in the time to research and the time to build the initial buildings and units. How many playthroughs do I need to know it's broken? And of course I was able to verify with a one player gamestart for the sake of being able to start working on correcting it, that the problem was not simply related to a team game. Though math is funny like that, it's pretty reliable.

I just wish for once, just once you would let me finish something Before you tear it down. I know full well that when I do a project you Will come in and destroy it eventually. The evidence is in these threads over the past 4 years. It is undeniable. But everything you do is The Epitome of Perfection for the Mod. You have No flaws in your design or character. Your Design document is etched in stone and Woe to anyone that finds any fault with it. Prime example of your threat is here.

What are you trying to say is left unfinished about these first 4 columns of techs and how the costs interact with the income?

I will repeat it One More Time, the Civics are still a work in progress. Let that sink in. After the Late Classical and on they are a freaking Mess. What Civplayer8 tried to do with them and then what SO did to them later to "add more stuff", is still an ongoing problem in the mod. With all due Respect to SO, as this Mod's author and creator, he really screwed the Civics over. And you know it from our past conversations and the past corrections I have done from our discussion before I took on this horrendous project. And those changes and this project with your Blessings at those times.

Not sure how that's related to anything in discussion here.

Yet in one playthrough, where the Mrs T-brd complains, you come in and make threats. Enough is enough T-brd.

Exactly when did I make any threats? Believe me, I have some to make but I'm not thinking it would help. If disagreements get severe enough and I feel you're undermining the project enough, and there continues to be such a lack of respect for myself and other posters here who are trying to make reasonable observations, I will not make threats. I will act.

I would suggest we need another lever to pull for balance that isn't civics. i.e. We shouldn't need to use civics to balance gold/whatever problems stemming from other parts of the design. That is usually bad design, and compromises one area to solve problems in another (potentially). Instead we should be treating the problems at the source where possible. For instance if there is too much gold being produced then we should look at the sources of that gold and decide which one we will adjust. For instance we could simply apply a multiplier to all building static gold output of 0.2. So instead of +1 gold you will get +0.2 gold per turn.

This allows us to turn the balancing problem into a tree where the leaves do not all need to be balanced against every other leaf, but only against the ones on the same branch (I think a lot of it might be like this already, with the era multipliers for instance). We can just balance buildings against each other (assume this is already done), and civics against each other, and then do final balancing with global multipliers. In this world if someone was to say "there's too much gold", we would decide if civics or buildings are the problem, and tweak their global gold multipliers appropriately.

Of course I haven't actually done any work in balancing this mod, but that is my intuition based on what I have seen so far

We do have sweeping methods as well. All angles need to be considered. If the buildings are en masse too out of whack, or the civics progression is too hard to overcome, then these larger scale era adjustments are kinda a matter of polishing a turd. It takes a lot of analysis to find the real sources of balance issues. Would that it were easier, yes, but it has improved a lot. Still... helps if we at least agree on what targets of balance we're trying to hit exactly.

 

[Thunderbrd]

And all this is unwarranted selfishness because those offended can't play their special way like they always have. Adaptation skill at -1.

It is not a refusal or inability to adapt that makes this an issue. It is the fact that only one approach becomes all that is valid. I often approach every game differently and if I refuse to support a setup that demands a singular approach to be employed every time, that is NOT a refusal to adapt, particularly not to an improvement. It is a refusal to accept that only one strategy has been designed to become the clearly dominant one, when the goal is that any of the opening strategies have equal validity.

Oh and, rereading for deeper clarity:

I really am not in a position where I NEED to compromise here

This is not a threat. A threat is a warning of consequence. This is simply a statement of fact that you seem to easily forget. I'm not trying to go around and destroy everything you do like it's personal. I like a lot of what you do. But where we have truly deep disagreements on what balanced design looks like, I'll try to find a compromise in between, but that doesn't mean I had to. I'm not sure what's hard to understand about that or why you would think of that as a threat. It's simply the way it is. You are on this team because I invited you and you cared to accept that invitation. I also make no demands but let you pretty much do as you see fit. I would think you might feel that's a fairly respectful environment as that's not generally how the world usually works.

The matter of striking the right balance between research and production progression is really something that has been dramatically debated on this forum for a long time and I need us to shoot for something in the middle of all opinions on that subject and let the options we have let someone with a stronger opinion get what they want out of their game. It is not a non-issue and never has been and you well know that. In the very opening of the game it is a much greater item of importance than it ever is after the first few tech columns because this is all what's happening BEFORE processes can make wasted production useful. Past that point there's a lot more tolerance on this subject for variation. I may not have needed to go out to 4 columns out to address this but to create a different ramp up gradient in values I did need to go that far. The issue is really only how the first 2 columns of techs are approached, and again, I didn't even blame your design - I just changed things to correct a problem. I wish you could see that it was one, but since it was a secondary issue derivitave from your changes, you're taking it so personally you can't divorce your ego from it.

Truth is, your civics are still, imo, overall an improvement. They just created a need for another area of the game to adapt, and in some ways, I was going to want to find a way to make that cost progression more like it is eventually anyhow.

Hey, I'm also curious, did the palace initial stats get changed here too? Could that explain some of the massive drop in initial research as well?