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Caveman 2 Cosmos

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by strategyonly, Aug 25, 2008.

  1. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    It is not a refusal or inability to adapt that makes this an issue. It is the fact that only one approach becomes all that is valid. I often approach every game differently and if I refuse to support a setup that demands a singular approach to be employed every time, that is NOT a refusal to adapt, particularly not to an improvement. It is a refusal to accept that only one strategy has been designed to become the clearly dominant one, when the goal is that any of the opening strategies have equal validity.

    Oh and, rereading for deeper clarity:

    This is not a threat. A threat is a warning of consequence. This is simply a statement of fact that you seem to easily forget. I'm not trying to go around and destroy everything you do like it's personal. I like a lot of what you do. But where we have truly deep disagreements on what balanced design looks like, I'll try to find a compromise in between, but that doesn't mean I had to. I'm not sure what's hard to understand about that or why you would think of that as a threat. It's simply the way it is. You are on this team because I invited you and you cared to accept that invitation. I also make no demands but let you pretty much do as you see fit. I would think you might feel that's a fairly respectful environment as that's not generally how the world usually works.

    The matter of striking the right balance between research and production progression is really something that has been dramatically debated on this forum for a long time and I need us to shoot for something in the middle of all opinions on that subject and let the options we have let someone with a stronger opinion get what they want out of their game. It is not a non-issue and never has been and you well know that. In the very opening of the game it is a much greater item of importance than it ever is after the first few tech columns because this is all what's happening BEFORE processes can make wasted production useful. Past that point there's a lot more tolerance on this subject for variation. I may not have needed to go out to 4 columns out to address this but to create a different ramp up gradient in values I did need to go that far. The issue is really only how the first 2 columns of techs are approached, and again, I didn't even blame your design - I just changed things to correct a problem. I wish you could see that it was one, but since it was a secondary issue derivitave from your changes, you're taking it so personally you can't divorce your ego from it.

    Truth is, your civics are still, imo, overall an improvement. They just created a need for another area of the game to adapt, and in some ways, I was going to want to find a way to make that cost progression more like it is eventually anyhow.

    Hey, I'm also curious, did the palace initial stats get changed here too? Could that explain some of the massive drop in initial research as well?
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2019
  2. MattCA

    MattCA Prince

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    Eliminate BuildingClass and UnitClass
    Take all steps necessary to wipe out BuildingClass and UnitClass tags for C2C since they should really be unnecessary Classes at this time.

    Memory Usage Optimization
    Where we try to fix more stuff into less bytes.

    Improve Save Compatibility
    Currently asset changes can cause all kinds of problems because of programming issues like not using the type remapping functions. The remapping functionality itself could also be extended to allow remapping of additional CvInfo classes if necessary.

    Review game movies (.bik)
    Replace single image bik files with dds files. Get rid of, or replace low quality movies.

    Here's a good focus for modding efforts. Once this stuff is complete maybe u guys can add some of the great ideas from the past as actual projects on github - like nomadic starts. I assume nomadic starts will change most of what you guys are discussing, so there's no reason to put too much effort into balance atm.
     
  3. billw2015

    billw2015 King

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    Well we want to get v40 soon so it needs to be reasonable, was meant to be this weekend, but I guess we are pushing it a week now.
     
  4. MattCA

    MattCA Prince

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    really? people say many releases have gotten screwed up because they were rushed and too many changes were made right before without a proper freeze period.
    The bugs thread has been somewhat quite tho...

    Edit: that means the svn source files will be updated right? Great, ignore this post.
     
  5. Esfera

    Esfera Warlord

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    I don't think most casual players mind waiting a week or two more.
    Personally, as a player that doesn't play the SVN anymore, I think that waiting a bit is worth it, especially if we consider the 'disaster' that was v38.
     
    MattCA likes this.
  6. billw2015

    billw2015 King

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    No, I mean v40 release to moddb or whatever. Its been scheduled for a month at least, which is why no new features etc have been going in. I think it is in a fairly stable condition now, with fixes for memory and end turn time. The only issues that are holding it back now are balance ones, and I'm not in position to speak to the severity of them.
    Also in the future we will make patch releases for the main releases as a matter of course. Any fixes we come up with that are compatible with the released version can be released as a patch to that version up until that becomes more effort than it is worth.
     
    MattCA likes this.
  7. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I think there are too many voices calling for another week of testing and I have to agree I think there could be a few more small issues to resolve - I KNOW that that's an infinite job but these should be easy enough to warrant a slight further holding back. There's also a rather large conflict at the moment and I don't really want to release during the middle of that if it can't possibly cool off for a bit first.
     
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  8. MattCA

    MattCA Prince

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    Current balance is the best it's ever been in all ways. Its been the #1 focus for 2 years now and efforts have worked.
     
  9. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    I'm curious as to what definition of balance you are using. For certain definitions, this is certainly true. For example, difficulty levels have moved some way back towards vanilla expectations, and this has indeed been something of a focus. However, in other senses, the latest movements have been in the wrong direction. Gold was far more balanced in 2015, for example, in the sense that you had closer to the "strategically appropriate" amount for a given difficulty level. It hasn't got worse recently, but nor has it got better. Culture is also far too plentiful - currently you will win a culture victory merely by being the first to mid-game, without any effort whatsoever.

    I realize there is no reasonable expectation of fixing these things before v40. So in context I don't disagree with you. I just don't like to see complacent-looking statements about balance, because in many ways it has been neglected in the too-hard-basket for too long.
     
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  10. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    65% penalty is all accounted for in starting civics. 4 categories have 10% penalties (generally -5 in all cities and -5 in capital), and 5 categories have a flat -5%. I'm sorry but since we're on the topic I can't resist another opportunity to assert how insane this is.
     
  11. MattCA

    MattCA Prince

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    right, I shoulda said overall balance.
     
  12. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    It is good that we can now replace static bik files with dds. It was not the case when I started making them ;).

    The only problem is that the way the movie branch works is that the name of the static image and the name of the movie is the same so that there needs be no change to any XML if you want the movies. So much less work for modders when things change between C2C versions. Like they did with the latest release (v40).
     
  13. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

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    You still need to change ".bik" to ".dds" in the movieDefineXML.
     
  14. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Yes that is the problem I was trying to point out. I had the statics as .bik because that way there need be no change in any XML if you used the movies because they had the same file name.
     
  15. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I can't completely agree here that this is wrong. Civics do need room to improve and as long as the game progression isn't all that bad, I'm not against this. It means that base amounts are roughly 35% as much as each +1 is +1. That's really not striking me as terribly inappropriate and it leaves room for a longer ramping up.

    If it meant we were going broke right away it would be a problem. But it may also be a good thing in disguise as it may well enable the normal game to blend better with the Nomadic Start eventually as well. I don't want to get too deep on how it may work that way except to say that I don't expect the Nomadic Start to begin with very good yield incomes at all. This change in ramping of costs may have been something I would've needed to find a way to work into the core game anyhow so both core and the nomadic start option could cohabitate easier.

    As long as the research to achieve a tech isn't too skewed here and we're not going into an immediate strike, it's not strange to think we'd want starting improvements of commerces to be measured in increments of .35 rather than a full integer of 1. It's just another scaling at that point, down to a finer degree. And ultimately it's not hurting anything as long as we get the costing fixed up so it's not creating an huge degree of imbalance between research and production accomplishment rates.

    Keep in mind that the beginning of the game has long had negative % modifier totals such that gold, research, culture were all less than 1 per +1 base. This really isn't new, just a bit stronger than we're used to is all.
     
  16. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    @KaTiON_PT : art/buttons/buildings/territorymarkersbuilding.dds It's already in the FPKs and unused so far so would be awesome if you'd be willing to do up the xml for this as a first culture giving building opening up at Language (it's a message being delivered after all...)

    What do you think?

    EDIT: Just noticed that community discussions was given +1 culture back during the initial discussions on this matter - it was really only supposed to give +1 education so if we do this we should take off the +1 culture on community discussions.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2019
  17. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    I'm tempted to assume this is a bug, but anyway I'll post it here first. How does this so-n-so get 130% insidiousness?
     

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  18. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    Research and production rates have to be analyzed separately. They could be in the right proportion to one another, and still be wrong. Your production rates on Long are about right (if not slightly fast). I'm guessing your research rates, in the spirit of compromise, are still 25-50% too slow.

    As for Nomadic Start, well let's just say that too must be kept separate.

    You don't have to start lower to ramp up for longer. You can instead ramp up slower.

    I really hope this is not still about not treading on toes. Like this agenda-driven trashing of civics doesn't throw everyone else's work out of balance.
     
  19. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Most likely due to a lot of crime autobuildings being present due to high crime. You usually need to get on top of crime levels before you can start expecting investigations to be successful, which is part of the barb of the whole thing.
     
  20. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    So we restarted the game tonight and the first buildings, without getting a super good start productionwise, just fairly average, were about each half of what it took to get to the next tech. That really did strike the right balance. Moving forward from there, the whole rest of the tree is progressing very nicely. In fact, I have to say this is the most enjoyable game I've had in ages. The spreading out we did of the various units really gives every sub-era of unit usage a much more prominent period and it's just wonderful and I'm feeling the civics design works out great. It was really just those first techs. They are a little longer than the rest of the techs in the era still but it varies a lot and it's not so profound that you notice it as much. You have the option of going after both buildings or getting some units out there instead if you don't go for one of the buildings and that there is a choice, which is the point that we were missing. I didn't feel I HAD to go for language right away because it wasn't quite as crucial to avoid wasting production to beeline right out the gate to be able to get the research process.

    So that pretty much did the trick in my book. Still don't think that cave dwellings is competing well with the other two for a potential best first pic but maybe if there's caves in the vicinity it might be.

    Further observations:
    @KaTiON_PT :

    1) Tracking should simply be named Trails. It was in the very beginning, pre-C2C, and the way the tree is now arranged with Persistence Hunting coming afterwards, and scouts coming up then, it would fit better as Trails (and trails are unlocked at that tech too.)
    2) That then allows 'Hunting' to be renamed to Tracking, since trackers come up then so it well fits.
    3) That then allows the term Tactics to be dropped from Hunting Tactics and voilla, Hunters are unlocked at Hunting.
    4) @Dancing Hoskuld Perhaps? It doesn't look like we have a Master Chaser but boy do we need one now. We used to have one a long time ago but Chasers were so quickly obsoleted that it wasn't worth it. But now Chasers have a very long era.
    5)Wanderers shouldn't obsolete with Chasers coming into play if that can be avoided - they are still the only scouting unit that can get improved results from goody huts for a long time.
    6)Elephant herds are possible to place with Elephants probably a lot earlier than they should be I think, given that you can't even get a pig herd until some of the animal taming techs later. A review of these herd generation tech unlocks might be in order for aligning things so that they at least make sense to an underlying set of assumable rules the player can rely on as some standards of expectations.
     
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