Caveman 2 Cosmos

[little_cyclone]

Wasn't sure if I should post this here, over under the RoM ModMod section, so I started here, if I need to repost in the other section, please let me know and I shall do so.

First, I'm glad someone is sticking around with Civ4 with me and continuing to build on it. Thank you

That being said, I did come across an issue with the most recent build of C2C (downloaded yesterday, not sure what the numbering is) I felt necessary to post. I started a Medieval Starting Era, Advanced Start, Custom Continents map this morning, and immediately realized I wasn't able to build boats from the start, even a first level Trireme or Galley.

I dug around the Civopedia a bit and discovered I needed to build a Shipwright building first. So be it.

I checked that Civopedia entry and saw that the Shipwright building first requires a Rope Weaver Hut, Sail Weaver, and finally a Carpenter Workshop. Ooooooooooook, fine, this is a little different, I can deal with it, we're looking to build up to it, not just have every city with a stretch of coast be able to launch a boat, I can dig it.

However, after that I became quite frustrated and annoyed, as at this point, theres even more requirements.. for the requirements of the requirements for the building thats required to build a boat. Any boat. Even a simple Trireme or Galley.

The Carpenter Workshop requires a Lumber Camp, which requires a Forest or Jungle anywhere in the city vicinity. Ok, thats easy enough to accomplish. And those are generally the first buildings I construct in a new city anyways. Unfortunately, that was the easiest one of the bunch.

The Sail Weaver demands I have previously constructed in the city:
1)A Tannery, which then appeals for the installment of
-1A)Hunters Camp, which isn't available until the assembly of either:
--1A1)Safari Hunter's Camp
--1A2)Ice Age Hunter's Camp
--1A3)Wilderness Hunter's Camp
--1A4)Outback Hunter's Camp,
None of which are available (to make a long story short) without first building yet another building in the city, which can't be built without a needed resource inside the City Radius.
This is all somewhat mitigated by the fact that once you have the resource inside the City Radius, and then construct the resource building in the city (IE, Deer Hunter Camp in the city after you've put a Camp/Fort/City on top of the actual Deer resource on the world map), you may then build the Hunters Camp and Tannery in any city in the nation.

-or

-1B)Cow Farm
-1C)Pig Farm
-1D)Reindeer Farm
-1E)Oxen Farm,
The above which only require the resource to be present in the City Radius in order to construct them.

or

2)A Weavers Hut see below

After that I needed the aforementioned Rope Weaver Hut, which then requires a Weavers Hut in the city. This gave me a few minutes of pause, simply for the fact that the Weavers Hut requires another Weavers Hut?!?! At any rate, moving along, the Weavers Hut then requires me to have in the city either:
1)A Silk Farm (needing silk)
2)A Cannabis Plantation (needing both cocoa and cotton)
3)A Cotton Plantation (needing cotton)
4)A Flax Farm (needing both wheat and cotton)
or 5)A Shearing Barn (needing sheep)
The Weavers Hut and all of the listed buildings required for the Weavers Hut require those resources somewhere (heres the kicker) IN THE CITIES RADIUS. Which means unless one of these resources is within 3 squares of the water, none of the early ships will ever get built by anyone, which is the boat (pun intended) I'm sitting in now. I'm about to research Industrialism, and the only boats in the water are the randomly spawned barbarian ones. My first gripe with this sytem is the necessity to have resources in the city limits.

Well, that was a long read. Or at least a long write for me. But, to summarize, the point of all this is the end game construction math thats required to put something as simple as a Trireme or Galley to sea. For example, I have put together the following outline of what it takes to launch a ship,

Galley =>
Shipwright =>
Carpenter Workshop => Lumber Camp => Forest or Jungle.
Sail Weaver => Tannery => Hunter Camp (Requiring another level of building+resource) OR Cow Farm (Cow) OR Pig Farm (Pig) OR Reindeer Farm (Reindeer) OR Oxen Farm (Cow).
Rope Weaver => Silk Farm OR Cannabis Plantation OR Cotton Plantation OR Flax Farm OR Shearing Barn (All of which require the resource to be in the City Radius).

The end result of this Civlecture means I have to build at least *8* buildings and connecting *3* resources (some with a mandatory requirement to be in the city radius)prior to even launching a Trireme!

My second gripe with this sytem is the necessity to have 8 buildings assembled before being able to build a single ship.

I'm all for additional content and having to meet prerequisites before getting buildings/units, but ladies and gentlemen, we have successfully wandered into the Civ Twilight Zone.

I would completely understand if it took that much effort and energy to bring forth something like an aircraft carrier or an AEGIS cruiser. In the grand, Civ-scheme of things those are big, sophisticated projects. Not to say that a Longboat wasn't sophisticated or big for the Vikings, but we're talking about the context of a full length game of Civ4:C2C, and these are the begining of the game units! Again, I'm all for additional content and requirements, but I think we've gone a little overboard with regards to buildings and resource placement. To that extent (and being someone who hates pointing out problems but not offering solutions) I had two ideas:

1)Streamline the tree a little bit, maybe something similiar to
Ship =>
Shipwright =>
Building A in the city => Resource A somewhere in the nation.
Building B in the city => Resource B somewhere in the nation.
Generic Building C in the city.
I'd even be happy with one of the above being the requirement for there to be a forest in the city radius for the Carpenter Workshop => Lumber Camp tree. Who doesn't like forests in the City Radius?
This way we only require 4 buildings in the city, and 2 resources nation-wide to begin assembling a navy.

2)Don't require anything to build ships. However,, increase all their hammer/construction cost by 100%. But for every successfully completed tree (such as a streamlined one outlined above), knock off 15-20% of the hammer/construction cost of building ships (IE, increase build speed, etc).

My apologies if I've stepped on any toes, these are merely but the observations of a long time player, and I hope if nothing else, I've provided some food for thought.

 

[VineFynn]

This is all somewhat mitigated by the fact that once you have the resource inside the City Radius, and then construct the resource building in the city (IE, Deer Hunter Camp in the city after you've put a Camp/Fort/City on top of the actual Deer resource on the world map), you may then build the Hunters Camp and Tannery in any city in the nation.

I do agree with this problem. And I think that it can be remedied by simply building a Camp on top of the resource, and connecting it to a city, or you simply build that building in the city if the city is on top of it. I don't like the idea of a Hunters Camp/Tannery prerequisite though, I think it isn't terribly realistic anyway.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@little_cyclone

I love your walk through. Let me see if i can address some issue for you.

There is a limit of 5 buildings that can be required to make another building. This ment if I wanted to have a bunch of types of "fake resources" be require then I needed to make them in a chain of buildings. Personally I would like the tannery to require all the base buildings but I can't thus had to make those "extra" buildings to allow for the possibility of more resources to pool from.

On a side note the Sheering bar also requires a series of buildings ...

5) Sheering Barn
a) Sheep Farm (Sheep)
b) Goat Farm (Sheep)
c) Yak Farm (Cow + Peak)
d) Alpaca Farm (Camel + Peak)

My tip for you is to find city locations near either Cotton, Hemp, Silk, Sheep, Pigs, Cows, Bison, Deer, Camels or Elephants. That's still a lot to choose from. If you are so unlucky to not be next to any of those, then well you better start researching steam ship or just make come canoes.

As for 3 resources I was able to build a Trireme with a city with a deer resource in its radius. Of the building I had to build were ...

I) Shipwright
- 1) Carpenter's Workshop
-- A) Lumber Camp
- 2) Rope Weaver's Hut & Sail Waver (They have the same requirement of Tannery OR Weaver)
-- A) Tannery
--- 1. Hunter's Camp
---- a) Wilderness Hunter's Camp
---- - Deer Hunter's Camp (Deer in City Vicinity)

In short if i could I wish I did not have to have the Hunter's Camp and Wilderness Hunter's Camp and have the Deer Hunter's Camp be a straight requirement of it. But sadly with the 5 buildings limit I am stuck to improvise with an elaborate tree system.

However it makes ships that more valuable if they are harder not only to obtain but to build the right buildings.

As for the forest in the city vicinity, well that's basically broken. You can build a lumber camp in any city. No matter if its far from any trees. So consider that the "free" part of the equation.

In addition there have been talks to have the ...

- Galley
- War Galley
- Trireme
- Siege Quinquereme

Either not require anything or require less things. In short this seems to be a very hot topic. I am surprised how much people have been upset by this, yet I have no heard anything evolving the building of say the School of Scribes or Library which also have elaborate chains.

Here is a tree to show how things work ...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I am surprised how much people have been upset by this, yet I have no heard anything evolving the building of say the School of Scribes or Library which also have elaborate chains.

That is probably because there are wonders that provide free School of Scribes and Libraries in every city.

 

[strategyonly]

That is probably because there are wonders that provide free School of Scribes and Libraries in every city.

Good point.

Also everyone forgets, how it was so darn hard back in the Prehistoric Era etc, to start buildings stuff, heck they didnt even have toilets till the 1940's. Infact my OLD GF didnt even have a toilet till 1970. They still had Outhouses in the farming areas.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Seems to me, the most frustrating requirement is that there really needs to be an animal resource in nearly every truly functioning city. This could be rectified by giving subdued animals the same capacity as a Great Farmer (but only for their own represented resource mind you.)

In fact, this could be an interesting way of going about those resources. Don't let them start on the map at all but require us to capture the animals to plant them as resources! Hunting already plants quite a few out and about, and that should be maintained in this case. But then, DH, your animal ai would become quite critical there. Perhaps, under some special, unlikely circumstances, even a barbarian animal may wish to plant itself as a resource 'herd' at some 'perfect' type of terrain spot.

 

[little_cyclone]

Thanks for the picture, that helps illustrate my point nicely

My tip for you is to find city locations near either Cotton, Hemp, Silk, Sheep, Pigs, Cows, Bison, Deer, Camels or Elephants. That's still a lot to choose from. If you are so unlucky to not be next to any of those, then well you better start researching steam ship or just make come canoes. ...

Unfortunately not only do I have to find city locations near those resources, in the case of Weavers Hut and some of the required Tannery buildings, those resources have to be in the City Radius of a city on the coast. So unless they are within 3 squares of water, I'm out of luck. With all the other resources in the game, the chances for one of those to be that close has been slim to none for me so far..

Good point.

Also everyone forgets, how it was so darn hard back in the Prehistoric Era.

The other issue is I'm in the late medieva/early renaissancel era.. At this point one would think it would have become somewhat easier then the example in Hydro's picture

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Good point.

Also everyone forgets, how it was so darn hard back in the Prehistoric Era etc, to start buildings stuff, heck they didnt even have toilets till the 1940's. Infact my OLD GF didnt even have a toilet till 1970. They still had Outhouses in the farming areas.

The Minoan civ, 2700-1500 BC, us well known for its flush toilets. Naturally only for the rich.

In 10.beta2 some of the Guild stuff is back even when turned off. I did not notice it in 10.bete1. See image

 

[strategyonly]

In 10.beta2 some of the Guild stuff is back even when turned off. I did not notice it in 10.beta1. See image

I haven't even touched the Options area lately

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I haven't even touched the Options area lately

It is probably some it the buildings XML. The game option tag for those buildings may have gotten lost.

Edit: Another bug I noticed is that if prime timber has its forest removed you can't build a lumber mill on it. Can you make the prime timber resource make the lumber mill valid. (A city had been built then destroyed.)

Does the new Pirate civ have a special gatherer unit? Or any other civ? The CTD I am getting is when I try and find the civ special unit for the gatherer.

 

[VineFynn]

Ok, heres the civilopedia fix! Please implement this in the next version, as I'm afraid that something might go wrong if I use it for the next version after it's updated.

EDIT: Updated the fix.

Edit: I've posted a video of still gameplay on YouTube here, but due to an error, the video is sized down in the window . Anyway, The resolution is poor, I've rushed it, but it's an effort.

 

[Solitude102]

Strange. In my attempt to download the extra leader-heads I believe to have place all the files in their correct locations. The FPK files under "Assets" & the custom leader-heads under "modules". Yet the leader-heads don't show up in the game. Did I do something wrong?

 

[strategyonly]

Strange. In my attempt to download the extra leader-heads I believe to have place all the files in their correct locations. The FPK files under "Assets" & the custom leader-heads under "modules". Yet the leader-heads don't show up in the game. Did I do something wrong?

Yeah, you need to go and open the file MLF_CIV4ModularLoadingControls (near the bottom of the folder area, (see attached)

				<Module>
					<Directory>Custom_Leaderheads</Directory>
					<bLoad>1</bLoad>
				</Module>

Cant remember at this point if the _ needs to be there or not, depending on the file name.

 

[Solitude102]

Thank you, it worked perfectly. Didn't realize I had to load it there as well.

 

[nichopoleve]

I remember there were talks about implementing a way to sort buildings after how much hammers etc. they gave.
Is this under development?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I remember there were talks about implementing a way to sort buildings after how much hammers etc. they gave.
Is this under development?

Not at the moment. Even though I would really like it to be so, I am teh main Python worker atm and I have other things that need doing also.

 

[Vaya]

Hydro I just got to Industrialism in 10.2 and the bug is still here

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Hydro I just got to Industrialism in 10.2 and the bug is still here

And yet I got Industrialism it a few turns ago with out any problems. That turn was very very slow but did not crash for me. perhaps it has something to do with the civics at the time? I am running Federal, Parliament, Liberal, Free Market, Volunteer Army, Free Church, Socialised, waste to Energy and No Boarders on Huge map, snail speed.

 

[Vaya]

And yet I got Industrialism it a few turns ago with out any problems. That turn was very very slow but did not crash for me. perhaps it has something to do with the civics at the time? I am running Federal, Parliament, Liberal, Free Market, Volunteer Army, Free Church, Socialised, waste to Energy and No Boarders on Huge map, snail speed.

I tried using those civics and it made no difference. Only thing that seems to help is to put coal plants to all my cities(or removing power lines).

Perhaps it has something to do with settings as we tend to use our favorite every time.
Maybe if you could upload here your UserSettings folder and CivilizationIV.ini I would check that out..

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vaya

I have been trying to figurine out why. I first thought it was because I had it set for the Coal Plant, Super Coal Plant and High-Tech Coal Plant to replace each other. But in the default Coal Plant it does the same thing except between the Coal Plant, Nuclear Plant and Hydro Plant. So I m guessing that that is not the problem as I originally thought, if it was already like that for the default power plants.

My next hunch was the Power Lines, however its the simplest of them all. Thus I am stumped at the moment on whats causing it.