Caveman 2 Cosmos

I have been thinking of a new property that would not be very difficult to implement and wanted to get some feedback before I spent alot of time poking around with something that nobody might want:

Supply would be a measure of how much consumable military supplies are stored in a plot. Mainly it would represent food (both stockpiled and foraged), but to a lesser extent spare wagon wheels, torches, gunpowder, arrows, anything that an army would need to stay alive and in fighting condition.
Ideally it would work to change how long distance wars are fought, and make using giant death stacks more difficult without having to institute arbitrary 'max units per tile' style restrictions.

Things I'm sure can be done with the property system as is:
*Supply would be generated by food producing terrain types in small amounts naturally, and improvements like farms & orchards would generate significantly more. Supply would spread very slowly to neighboring tiles, (so a farm next to a desert wouldn't get sucked dry) but routes would increase the speed of the spread.
*City buildings that provide food, healing, or bonuses to military production would also generate supply, which would spread down roads to other cities that might not have those buildings.
*Supply would decay just like crime / pollution, as food goes bad and spare parts rust / become obsolete, etc.
*Units consume supply, so a big stack that sits on a desert tile will quickly eat up all the local food. Mounted units / heavy infantry would consume more than average, and recon / skirmisher units would consume less.

Things I think can be done with the property system as is:
*Units in a plot with low supply numbers would be penalized. There is a tag to give units a promotion if they are in a plot that hits a property threshold, although I don't think I've actually seen it used so I'd need to test how it works. This would fit in nicely with Thunderbird's combat mod Afflictions, units in a plot with <100 supply could get a 'Rationing: -10% strength, heals 10% slower' promotion, a plot with <0 supply might give them a 'Starvation: unit takes 5% damage /turn, no healing' promotion. These would all be on the same promotion line and the effects would stack.
*Certain buildings and improvements could slow supply decay. Granaries and castles, villages and forts come to mind as places where supplies would be stockpiled. With a slower decay rate than surrounding tiles, these plots would have a higher maximum amount of supply stored.
*Cities, villages, and forts would pull in supply from the surrounding tiles, making them natural locations to station your armies. A border Fort connected by a road to a nearby city would be the ideal place.

Things that would need some work done to the property system:
*AI is the big one, but it might not be terrible. From my admittedly narrow understanding, the AI already knows to avoid hostile terrain if that option is on. If the AI also considered how many supplies were in a plot compared to the size of it's stack, then it would avoid moving into plots that couldn't sustain it.
*Civics would change the supply consumption rate of your units. The later tech military civics that increase the support cost of your units would also decrease their supply consumption. One of the major changes that came out of the industrial revolution was the ability to can food. Once soldiers could carry their food with them instead of having to hunt for it or pillage local stockpiles armies became much larger and were able to travel much further.
*Merchant/supply/freight caravans could be sacrificed to provide a one time boost to the current plot's supplies. This might not take much work, but getting the AI to understand how to do it would be the difficult part.

Things that might not be possible:
*Supply would not cross cultural borders. This prevents your supplies from 'leaking' into the wilderness. It also makes moving large armies across undeveloped terrain difficult, which would make it harder to wage war against opponents that you don't share a border with.
*Your own units (and allied ones) would only consume 1/2 as many supplies in your own territory. This will give defenders and advantage, allowing them to 'wait out' equally powerful stacks of attackers whose supplies will run low first. It will also reduce the amount of micromanagement you will have to do in peacetime.
*Units would consume some supply from all surrounding tiles. A large army that consumes all the supply in it's plot every turn is also going to scare away game and people even if they only pass close by.
*AI would make decisions about going to war based on how (and if) it can get it's soldiers to the target's territory. If it has to travel though a series of low supply plots like a desert that would damage a stack larger than, say 10 units for example, the AI would assume it would only have a stack of 10 units to fight the war with and make it's decision about going to war based on that.

Feedback:
Please let me know if this is something that would interest anyone. I've made some small changes to the XML before and alot of this stuff is just going to be copying the pollution xml and modifying it, which I can do easily. The hard parts will be modifying the AI code so your opponents don't park 20 Swordsman on a barren tile and have them eat dirt until they die, which would be something the Mods would have to do. If that is something that is either too difficult or too time consuming to do please let me know and I'll drop the idea.
 
I have been thinking of a new property that would not be very difficult to implement and wanted to get some feedback before I spent alot of time poking around with something that nobody might want:

....

Feedback:
Please let me know if this is something that would interest anyone. I've made some small changes to the XML before and alot of this stuff is just going to be copying the pollution xml and modifying it, which I can do easily. The hard parts will be modifying the AI code so your opponents don't park 20 Swordsman on a barren tile and have them eat dirt until they die, which would be something the Mods would have to do. If that is something that is either too difficult or too time consuming to do please let me know and I'll drop the idea.

I think this would be a nice addition which would help with the limiting how far you can go from your borders. Goody huts/IP should help your recon units and hunting your hunting units. This should give us a good start.
 
Supply sounds like a nifty idea. There could also be a diplomatic option to share supply, or it could be wrapped into either or both of Right of Passage and Open Borders. At the very least, Allies should share Supply, and Vassals/Masters probably would, IMHO.
 
Have a look at this thread, post 24 and below: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=459417&highlight=supply&page=2
So yes, people are interested in that.

Things I'm sure can be done with the property system as is:
*Supply would be generated by food producing terrain types in small amounts naturally, and improvements like farms & orchards would generate significantly more. Supply would spread very slowly to neighboring tiles, (so a farm next to a desert wouldn't get sucked dry) but routes would increase the speed of the spread.
*City buildings that provide food, healing, or bonuses to military production would also generate supply, which would spread down roads to other cities that might not have those buildings.
*Supply would decay just like crime / pollution, as food goes bad and spare parts rust / become obsolete, etc.
*Units consume supply, so a big stack that sits on a desert tile will quickly eat up all the local food. Mounted units / heavy infantry would consume more than average, and recon / skirmisher units would consume less.
Correct, all of that is possible.

Things I think can be done with the property system as is:
*Units in a plot with low supply numbers would be penalized. There is a tag to give units a promotion if they are in a plot that hits a property threshold, although I don't think I've actually seen it used so I'd need to test how it works. This would fit in nicely with Thunderbird's combat mod Afflictions, units in a plot with <100 supply could get a 'Rationing: -10% strength, heals 10% slower' promotion, a plot with <0 supply might give them a 'Starvation: unit takes 5% damage /turn, no healing' promotion. These would all be on the same promotion line and the effects would stack.
Yes, it was meant for that (among other things) but no one added a real unit property yet so it has not been used yet. It works the same as the equivalent tag for buildings (like crime buildings) but from unit properties. So best let the units gather and store some supply themselves and then penalize them the lower it gets.

*Certain buildings and improvements could slow supply decay. Granaries and castles, villages and forts come to mind as places where supplies would be stockpiled. With a slower decay rate than surrounding tiles, these plots would have a higher maximum amount of supply stored.
Possible but might be somewhat long XML at the moment.

*Cities, villages, and forts would pull in supply from the surrounding tiles, making them natural locations to station your armies. A border Fort connected by a road to a nearby city would be the ideal place.
Gather propagators can do that.

Things that would need some work done to the property system:
*AI is the big one, but it might not be terrible. From my admittedly narrow understanding, the AI already knows to avoid hostile terrain if that option is on. If the AI also considered how many supplies were in a plot compared to the size of it's stack, then it would avoid moving into plots that couldn't sustain it.
Yes, AI in general would need some specialized code to understand supply properly.
Worth it though.

*Civics would change the supply consumption rate of your units. The later tech military civics that increase the support cost of your units would also decrease their supply consumption. One of the major changes that came out of the industrial revolution was the ability to can food. Once soldiers could carry their food with them instead of having to hunt for it or pillage local stockpiles armies became much larger and were able to travel much further.
Already possible.

*Merchant/supply/freight caravans could be sacrificed to provide a one time boost to the current plot's supplies. This might not take much work, but getting the AI to understand how to do it would be the difficult part.
An outcome mission can do that.

Things that might not be possible:
*Supply would not cross cultural borders. This prevents your supplies from 'leaking' into the wilderness. It also makes moving large armies across undeveloped terrain difficult, which would make it harder to wage war against opponents that you don't share a border with.
The Active expressions on property manipulators can prevent it from going into wilderness (already used for some manipulators).

*Your own units (and allied ones) would only consume 1/2 as many supplies in your own territory. This will give defenders and advantage, allowing them to 'wait out' equally powerful stacks of attackers whose supplies will run low first. It will also reduce the amount of micromanagement you will have to do in peacetime.
Possible, just needs the "in its own territory" state exposed to the expression system.

*Units would consume some supply from all surrounding tiles. A large army that consumes all the supply in it's plot every turn is also going to scare away game and people even if they only pass close by.
With a gather propagator on the units from surrounding plots they will do that.
 
Idea is cool but i would love too see it much simple

1 dont add another tag (turn times) use plot food production
2 dont use caravans as suply - micro micro micro management that can be easy exploit by human player
3 Connect it with Strategic reserves forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=475434
4 every unit consumes 1food turn. When plot is connected to trade route consumes it from strategic reserves when not connected to trade route unit will consume food from plot food production

It will be less complicated to implement. No new tags to plots will needed. Trade routes contains idea of roads and open borders as a supply routes.

It that system will obvious why desert and ice terrain cause demage because there is no food.
 
It will be less complicated to implement. No new tags to plots will needed. Trade routes contains idea of roads and open borders as a supply routes.
No, it is more complicated, because unlike a property based system the behavior is not yet implemented.
 
I don't think this is a good idea. Unless you allow armies to live off the land (including enemy culture territory). Look how far away Alexander, Cesear, Napoleon, England, etc... were able to march their armies (and navies) from their home territory. Napoleon only ran into trouble because the Russians effectively pillaged their own territory in front of him.
 
I don't think this is a good idea. Unless you allow armies to live off the land (including enemy culture territory). Look how far away Alexander, Cesear, Napoleon, England, etc... were able to march their armies (and navies) from their home territory. Napoleon only ran into trouble because the Russians effectively pillaged their own territory in front of him.

They would live off the land, what the Supply property represents is a combination of huntable animals, civilian food stores, wild nuts/berries/etc. Basically anything an army can hunt, forage, or steal to keep itself going.

Armies won't automatically starve in foreign territory, but having your entire army in one stack will be less effective, and it will put a 'soft' limit on how many troops you can bring against an enemy, rather than being limited only to how much gold you have for support costs.

Right now certain terrains like tundra, permafrost, salt flats, etc. that don't give any defensive penalty are perfectly fine to cross (unless you have terrain damage on, and then you avoid them like the plague). This would be a more moderate approach. A small force could cross a large frozen tundra, eating the occasional snow hare or caribou it finds and not take any damage. A large army could cross a couple tiles of barren lands if there were fertile farms on the other side to replenish their supplies.

A unit will consume supply from it's tile no matter who owns it, but friendly armies would only consume half as many supplies due to greater knowledge of the local resources, and better supply lines back to the capital.
 
You would have to provide additional supply capacity and/or units as tech advances. Although if you look in history there is a bit of oddity in that ancient armies were huge and traveled very far afield, whereas medevil armies were significantly smaller and generally didn't travel as far (withstanding some exceptions such as the various crusades).
 
You also approach the point of requiring over micromanaging such as the game begins to get too much number crunching/looking up and less fun.
 
can someone help? i downloaded the game off of desura but when i try to load it from the BtS load mod screen or with the Desura launcher it will change my windows color like it normally does, but then it just wont launch
 
can someone help? i downloaded the game off of desura but when i try to load it from the BtS load mod screen or with the Desura launcher it will change my windows color like it normally does, but then it just wont launch

Bts patched to 3.19?
 
I can't find our help request thread so I'll put it here

1) Can someone merge in the dll stuff in the "Natural Wonders" mod. I think it is just tags. That way I can start on merging the rest when I get round to it.

2) Do we have a way of renaming a resource in saves? Soonish I will be replacing the map resource dye with indigo. This is not a big problem as I can work around it.
 
but now it'll start up and try to load but it'll crash halfway through when it gets to init XML files(uncached)
 
HA.HAHA. never mind. i got it

EDIT: never mind. new problem. whenever i pick my civ and load the game, after i press the end turn button, the game just closes.
 
HA.HAHA. never mind. i got it

EDIT: never mind. new problem. whenever i pick my civ and load the game, after i press the end turn button, the game just closes.

Please find the minidump (see the stickied FAQs thread for how to do that) and post it in the bugs/crashes thread.
 
I can't find our help request thread so I'll put it here

1) Can someone merge in the dll stuff in the "Natural Wonders" mod. I think it is just tags. That way I can start on merging the rest when I get round to it.

2) Do we have a way of renaming a resource in saves? Soonish I will be replacing the map resource dye with indigo. This is not a big problem as I can work around it.
You can rename and redefine anything but the basic tag line name I think. Thus you can change the description line in the TXT file reference, and the art and the effects.

I'd love to help with Natural Wonders but it wouldn't be too soon that I could get to it. I could make it fairly high priority but I'm on a mod break this weekend and have some other pressing issues to address. PM me the link to the download if you would.
 
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