CE vs SE Head-to-Head Experiment Part II

[VoiceOfUnreason]

research from specialists only responcible of 10% sci specialists provided from ligth bulbing. I am sorry, you just used typical SE, with some outside little cottage help.

An interesting claim, that. It almost seems to be saying that you cannot claim to be running a CE if you don't cottage your starting location.

For those interested in the his pace for GP

[pre]
Turn 75, 1000BC: Henry Ford (Great Engineer) has been born in Moscow (Peter)!
Turn 85, 750BC: Gottfried Leibniz (Great Scientist) has been born in Moscow (Peter)!
Turn 95, 500BC: Antoine Laurent Lavoisier (Great Scientist) has been born in Moscow (Peter)!
Turn 103, 300BC: Werner Heisenberg (Great Scientist) has been born in Moscow (Peter)!
Turn 113, 50BC: Nichola Tesla (Great Engineer) has been born in Moscow (Peter)!
Turn 120, 125AD: Heinz Guderian (Great General) has been born in Moscow (Peter)!
Turn 123, 200AD: Kalidas (Great Artist) has been born in Moscow (Peter)!
Turn 133, 450AD: Merit Ptah (Great Scientist) has been born in Moscow (Peter)!
Turn 142, 640AD: Enrico Fermi (Great Scientist) has been born in Moscow (Peter)!
Turn 149, 780AD: Atisha (Great Prophet) has been born in Moscow (Peter)!
Turn 155, 900AD: Ernest Rutherford (Great Scientist) has been born in Moscow (Peter)!
Turn 161, 1010AD: Moses (Great Prophet) has been born in Moscow (Peter)!
Turn 167, 1070AD: Harkuf (Great Merchant) has been born in Moscow (Peter)!
Turn 171, 1110AD: Joseph Marie Jacquard (Great Engineer) has been born in Moscow (Peter)!
Turn 179, 1190AD: Jacques Cartier (Great Merchant) has been born in Moscow (Peter)!
Turn 185, 1250AD: Johannes Kepler (Great Scientist) has been born in Moscow (Peter)!
Turn 194, 1340AD: Mohammed Shah (Great Prophet) has been born in Moscow (Peter)!
Turn 208, 1480AD: William T. G. Morton (Great Engineer) has been born in Moscow (Peter)!
Turn 223, 1565AD: Shah Jahan (Great Merchant) has been born in Moscow (Peter)!
Turn 242, 1660AD: Louis Daguerre (Great Engineer) has been born in Moscow (Peter)!
Turn 244, 1670AD: Ramakrishna (Great Prophet) has been born in Moscow (Peter)!
[/pre]

 

[malekithe]

research from specialists only responcible of 10% sci specialists provided from ligth bulbing. I am sorry, you just used typical SE, with some outside little cottage help.

What, pray tell, is a "typical SE"?

It's quite conceivable that you could have a city so well-suited to being a GP farm that it becomes pointless to run specialists in any other city (they will never produce a GP). In those cases, what do you do with those other cities? I'd say you run cottages, as running specialists for the beakers alone doesn't make sense long-term. But, then, is that an SE or a CE?

 

[Dirk1302]

In a typical SE you have multiple big cities late game running lots of specialists,mostly scientists. Every scientist produces 6 beakers which is only slightly less than the yield from mature cottages. This is compensated by the fact that you still get lots of GS late game to accelerate research.

Also important, these beakers are independent of the science slider which makes your empire more flexible. For instance,without doing much i'm always high on the culture list because of the culture slider. Quite different in a CE where i had to check that i generated enough culture on the borders.

 

[futurehermit]

What, pray tell, is a "typical SE"?

It's quite conceivable that you could have a city so well-suited to being a GP farm that it becomes pointless to run specialists in any other city (they will never produce a GP). In those cases, what do you do with those other cities? I'd say you run cottages, as running specialists for the beakers alone doesn't make sense long-term. But, then, is that an SE or a CE?

I believe it is incorrect to say they will NEVER produce a gp?

In my SE games, even if I have an amazing "gpfarm" city, my other cities still contribute gps...

p.s., dave's gp pace was pretty sweet that game

p.p.s., why run cottages in the rest of your empire? as acidsatyr says, cottages = low food = low flexibility. if you're getting enough research in your one city then focus on food + hammers in your other cities and go to war

 

[DaveMcW]

I think we need a new term.

LE = Lightbulb Economy. You get most of your research from lightbulbing techs with great people.

SE as defined in this thread means you get most of your research from the specialists themselves.

 

[futurehermit]

I think most people (including myself now) equate the two as SE.

I think probably for this specific game we should have made a rule that you couldn't build the pyramids or else couldn't run representation/pacificism/caste system. It blurs the lines a bit too much imo.

 

[acidsatyr]

First of all, take a look at his first save.

Yes, he has 2-3 cities with cottages (poorly developed), but those cities don't do more to his economy than his capital alone.

He built pyramids, and ran EARLY representation. He run pacifism. His early economy (BC) is more concentrated of his GP rather than cottages. In that’s sense he is in fact running SE, at least in the first half of the game. The fact that he has more cities running weak cottages doesn’t mean anything, don't look at it that way.

SE is not a correct term, but we use it for the sake of arguments here, the right terms should be FE - farm economy, since it is farms that shape economy, in terms of research as well as production.

Ironically, again, his position would’ve been WAY stronger if he just farmed all his cities.

Mature cottages do bring in more commerce, but they are adjusted with slider. Scientist is always 6 beakers.

If you don’t believe, replace all his cottages with farms, see what you get.

 

[frob2900]

I agree with acidsatyr.. For all intents and purposes the pre-BC economy might be defined as SE. But then again, why not? The only way of running CE pre BC is immediately cottaging heavily. But with Peter it would be crazy not to try and get great persons with a philosophical leader, somewhere, somehow (and why not the capital in this case) and there was stone in the fat cross, so with pyramids, all the better...

Like DaveMcW said, another term like LE should be added to the SE vs CE debate, because its true.. lightbulbing is fantastic early on, but later other methods must be used to advance quickly.. Perhaps that's where the debate should start...

 

[DaveMcW]

Ironically, again, his position would’ve been WAY stronger if he just farmed all his cities.

I challenge you to play the game and prove it. Can you launch before 1730?

 

[futurehermit]

^^^I bet he could

 

[Mutineer]

What, pray tell, is a "typical SE"?

It's quite conceivable that you could have a city so well-suited to being a GP farm that it becomes pointless to run specialists in any other city (they will never produce a GP). In those cases, what do you do with those other cities? I'd say you run cottages, as running specialists for the beakers alone doesn't make sense long-term. But, then, is that an SE or a CE?

Typical CE by definition is economy that rely on cottagess to abtain the most of it commerce = research.
That typically mean you will use civics that enchance that economy.

You can not even talk about using CE before liberalism if you are not runnig and using burocracy in cottaged capital, with Academy in it.
That is allwasy been main staple of CE, claiming that it is better then farming floodpance in capital.

So, by adopting capital as a GP farm you allredy submit that you intent to use SE befor liberalism.

Now is logical progression CE tend to addopt liberalism civics(Free speach, free religion,) as soon as posible and typically adopt democracy civics as soon as they researched, in order to enchance many towns they allredy have at that moment and speed up development of cottages.
Really, why do you need pacifism if most of your research come from cottagess?

By adopting Specialists enchancing civics, like representation/pacifism, castle system, you actially admit that cottages do not play a main role in your research/defelopment in Renesance age. So, you were continue to use specialists economy in renecance age.

I have no idea when is ever you finally swich to cottage enchancing civis, if ever.

So, you simple just choise SE for most of the game.

 

[mutax2003]

I think the next showdown should be using a financial leader, maybe Mansa, going for domination victory . After that, a leader that is neither philosophical nor financial.

 

[acidsatyr]

Typical CE by definition is economy that rely on cottagess to abtain the most of it commerce = research.
That typically mean you will use civics that enchance that economy.

You can not even talk about using CE before liberalism if you are not runnig and using burocracy in cottaged capital, with Academy in it.
That is allwasy been main staple of CE, claiming that it is better then farming floodpance in capital.

So, by adopting capital as a GP farm you allredy submit that you intent to use SE befor liberalism.

Now is logical progression CE tend to addopt liberalism civics(Free speach, free religion,) as soon as posible and typically adopt democracy civics as soon as they researched, in order to enchance many towns they allredy have at that moment and speed up development of cottages.
Really, why do you need pacifism if most of your research come from cottagess?

By adopting Specialists enchancing civics, like representation/pacifism, castle system, you actially admit that cottages do not play a main role in your research/defelopment in Renesance age. So, you were continue to use specialists economy in renecance age.

I have no idea when is ever you finally swich to cottage enchancing civis, if ever.

So, you simple just choise SE for most of the game.

And that is exactly why running few cottages doesn't mean you are still not running SE.

 

[Mutineer]

If you really want to compare CE with SE(FE) varian condition are very simple.

CE can not use any specialist orientated civics.
(No representation, pacifism, castle system)
SE can not own any cottages.

 

[futurehermit]

^^^Yeah, good points, I forgot about civics. I guess I just assumed that we would use SE/CE civics respectively

 

[Beamup]

If you really want to compare CE with SE(FE) varian condition are very simple.

CE can not use any specialist orientated civics.
(No representation, pacifism, castle system)
SE can not own any cottages.

Except neither of those conditions would actually be adhered to in practice. Especially during the early game, where such civics are often the best options for any economy, or during the late game, where any economy is likely to have cottages. Or in other words, they will never be adhered to.

It's much more useful for such terms to reflect something that might actually appear in-game. Or is your intent to argue that SE is superior by defining every economic strategy ever used as SE?

Now, that's not saying that I don't like SE - I do, and find that it's often an excellent option in many situations. But this discussion will be a lot more meaningful if some attempt is actually made to mirror what actually happens in-game.

 

[Dirk1302]

^^ I think for FE the conditions as layed down by Mutineer are correct, of course you may own some cottages but you will never build one. Only exception here is if i can't farm the capital then it gets cottages because i can't waste those tiles. So i actually adhere to these principles 95%.

As for CE, it's less clear, you run universal suffrage instead of representation.
But caste system and pacifism can come in handy here occasionally for the GP farm.

 

[Beamup]

^^ I think for FE the conditions as layed down by Mutineer are correct, of course you may own some cottages but you will never build one. Only exception here is if i can't farm the capital then it gets cottages because i can't waste those tiles. So i actually adhere to these principles 95%.

The thing of it is, from what I hear around here, cottaging the capital is the most common approach to an SE. Virtually every SE I've seen demonstrated did that, so never building a cottage is just not accurate - unless you want to define everything as CE, which is just as pointless as defining everything as SE.

As for CE, it's less clear, you run universal suffrage instead of representation.
But caste system and pacifism can come in handy here occasionally for the GP farm.

I often run Representation for a CE. Not because I think boosting my specialists is important, but because there isn't much else useful to use. Sure, US is the long-term ideal - but until you have mature towns, it's a waste. Which leaves Rep, HR, and PS. Of those three, Rep is often the best option for any civ. And again, from what I hear around here, very many people do it the same way.

It's a CE if your medium- to long-term main source of income is cottages, and an SE if it's specialists. Short-term blips based on which specialized city is more developed at the moment (e.g. GPF in the capital) don't mean anything.

 

[Dirk1302]

Look at Acidsatyrs games as far as i know he farms everything he can farm, also in the capital, from his posts i assume Mutineer does the same. I haven't experimented with cottaging the capital in a SE economy myself. It seems to me though that if you're not financial cottage towns only give 4 commerce pre printing press somewhat more than i get with my scientists but only with the reseacrh slider close to 100%. At the time that CE players get the cottage boost with printing press/free speech SE players get constitution for their specialist boost.

I probably rather have the specialists but i will experiment with cottages in the capital in due time. Main reason is that researching Civil service, Liberalism and Constitution can be a pain in an Se economy.

I used to play Ce's before i knew of SE economy. By the time i researched Constitution/democracy most of my cottages had matured into towns so i never ran representation.

 

[futurehermit]

Look at Acidsatyrs games as far as i know he farms everything he can farm, also in the capital, from his posts i assume Mutineer does the same. I haven't experimented with cottaging the capital in a SE economy myself. It seems to me though that if you're not financial cottage towns only give 4 commerce pre printing press somewhat more than i get with my scientists but only with the reseacrh slider close to 100%. At the time that CE players get the cottage boost with printing press/free speech SE players get constitution for their specialist boost.

I probably rather have the specialists but i will experiment with cottages in the capital in due time. Main reason is that researching Civil service, Liberalism and Constitution can be a pain in an Se economy.

I used to play Ce's before i knew of SE economy. By the time i researched Constitution/democracy most of my cottages had matured into towns so i never ran representation.

In acidsatyr's current deity succession game they got liberalism in 500AD, so I wouldn't say it's a pain to research in a SE (they never built a cottage)

Also, I think cottaging the capital can still be a good idea in a SE game so that you can run bureaucracy when you get CS early. That being said, I still ensure enough surplus food to run specialists as well and if that means farms, so be it.