CE vs SE Head-to-Head Experiment!

[DaveMcW]

Alright, I accept.

CE Variant rules: I will only convert citizens to specialists in one city. (Free specialists from wonders and mercantilism are legal.)

SE Variant rules: Whatever you like, but the less cottages you build the more impressed I will be.

 

[futurehermit]

Ok, awesome.

I would say this:

CE Variant: Can have 1 designated GP farm. Otherwise need to avoid specialists in rest of cities. I guess free specialists from mercantilism/wonders is ok!

SE Variant: Can only have 1 designated cottage city (capital for CS). Otherwise need to avoid cottages in other cities (I will even **gasp** turn captured mature cottages into farms )

P.S., please post your normal skill level/settings so we can make sure this is worthwhile. if you normally play on immortal or prince, there's not much point to doing this

EDIT: P.P.S., do you not think Liz would present a better head-to-head with financial and philosophical? some might think that peter having phil but not fin tips things in favour of SE

EDIT2: P.P.P.S., I will post a save when I get home tonight unless you post one first (ensure there is stone avaible in capital or 2nd city).

 

[DaveMcW]

I guess that leaves Monarch or Emperor. Pick whichever you like.

Choosing space race is a big enough boost for CE, no need to give me Liz too.

I would prefer a setting that gives lots of grassland, so we can directly compare farms to cottages.

 

[futurehermit]

Ok, let's play Monarch, but if YOU consistently play at immortal then you should cruise on monarch, yes? (i.e., please post YOUR skill level)

What setting would you prefer for lots of grassland. I find the default is ok, but am open to adjusting it (though not drastically so we don't stray too far from default settings)

Choosing space race is a big enough boost for CE, no need to give me Liz too.

ROFL. Ok, fair enough It's true that domination is MUCH more suited to the SE, although I'm curious to see how much I can leverage the Russian UB...

 

[DaveMcW]

I have beaten Immortal once on standard settings. Mainly I play lower than that in competitive games though.

If you're worried about my skill level being a factor, maybe we could compare notes and try the other strategy at the end of the first game?

 

[futurehermit]

Ok that is fine. If you mainly play emperor, I don't think our skill level is too far apart. When I concentrate instead of being so damn lazy, I can play on emperor

I'll post a save in a few hours when I get home if you do not post one first.

 

[acidsatyr]

There is a very small buffer between aftermath of liberalism race, and republic and biology, which, if you are smart about it, should be acquired really quickly. With both biology and republic, I do not believe that CE is better than SE in any way again. I can pull of purely SE science cities with 300 beakers without hassle late game (if I ever play that late).
Therefore my civ (or anyone else's who plays this way), starts of with purely SE, and has only farms no cottages. As you later conquer foreign territory, you gain both cottages and farms,. Therefore, once you reach biology, you are running mixed economy, SE on your original terrain, and hybrid on foreign ground. Therefore saying that CE is better than SE late game is incorrect, as you never run purely one or other that late in the game.

 

[futurehermit]

There is a very small buffer between aftermath of liberalism race, and republic and biology, which, if you are smart about it, should be acquired really quickly. With both biology and republic, I do not believe that CE is better than SE in any way again. I can pull of purely SE science cities with 300 beakers without hassle late game (if I ever play that late).
Therefore my civ (or anyone else's who plays this way), starts of with purely SE, and has only farms no cottages. As you later conquer foreign territory, you gain both cottages and farms,. Therefore, once you reach biology, you are running mixed economy, SE on your original terrain, and hybrid on foreign ground. Therefore saying that CE is better than SE late game is incorrect, as you never run purely one or other that late in the game.

I agree that SE can still pull down a lot of beakers late-game, no question. But is it better than a maxed out CE with all of its civics now on board? I don't know. Perhaps this challenge game will answer this question more definitively! I used to think that SE > CE game-long, but after testing I became less sure. We shall see though!

While it's true that you end up with hybrid late game, you can't run pure SE and pure CE civics at the same time (especially in the representation column), so that's part of it. But another part is just the impact of your SE vs CE late game. I'm struggling finding the right words atm, but what I'm trying to say is that, although you're running more of a hybrid, you're still targetting what impacts one or the other later in the game (e.g., a SE will be more inclined to target SoL whereas CE may prioritize another wonder)

 

[Wodan]

This will be interesting.

 

[acidsatyr]

To be able to have successful late game SE, you must have few things sorted out. In almost all my games caste system becomes a must. It is periodically switched to slavery for shields, but by that time you should have cities with mines to build units.
SE requires more fine tuning than CE does, that’s why its harder to pull it off. But if played properly there really is no difference between CE and SE research wise in late game.
But again, note that late game, those running SE will end up running hybrid because of all cottages you get from other civs. So you aren't really comparing pure SE versus pure CE late game. In never happens in reality.

 

[futurehermit]

Well it will happen in my game, because I've promised to farm over mature cottages

I agree that caste system becomes a must. However, that late in the game, like you said, slavery is much less important.

 

[sugerdady87]

SE is better

 

[raba.yuugi]

Looks like this thread died. I read the 3rd page and then skipped to the last one. Has anyone come to a conclusion? So which is better?

 

[r_rolo1]

They concluded that with that map the CE aproach gave a earlier SS launch.... This was in warlords, dunno if with BtS ( with the corps ) things would not be diferent *scratchs head*

 

[oyzar]

If anything CE got more powerful in bts due to the slow AI teching... However this was space race which is a pretty bad comparison...

 

[r_rolo1]

^^I do not fully agree... BtS boosted SE too with the beefed GA , the corps and the Nat Park + preserves combo. I've played a game with a full SE for a space win ( Pericles ) not long ago and I was pleasantly suprised with the results....

 

[mutax2003]

How about domination based victory? Would SE be better for that (i.e. earlier finish date)?

 

[shyuhe]

^^I do not fully agree... BtS boosted SE too with the beefed GA , the corps and the Nat Park + preserves combo. I've played a game with a full SE for a space win ( Pericles ) not long ago and I was pleasantly suprised with the results....

Is this assuming that the CE can't hire specialists when it grows past size 21?? Unless you place a restriction like that, I don't see how corps favor an SE more than a CE.

 

[r_rolo1]

I'm not saying that corps favour more CE or SE or that CE forbids specialists ( here we go again with the SE/CE definitions ) ..... I'm stating that some corps ( sushi comes to mind ) give a nice push to the number of specialists... And those specialists will more valuable in Rep ( SE style ) than in US ( CE style ).... of course that you can have a SE without Rep and a CE without US, but it isn't exactly the same thing....

 

[King of Town]

What I did for a comparison was made two island cities in world builder. I put nothing bt grassland farms on one, and nothing but grassland towns on the other. I let the grassland farms city grow to as big as it could, and put them into scientist. I figured for as long as it would take for the cottages to grow into towns you could probably get an acadamy and 10 settled scientists. Maybe that was low, don't know. At 100% the commerce city won very very easy. From about 80% and below the specialsy city won. I didn't add any of the techs or buildings that would have helped ( rep, printing press, etc. ) I didn't do anything with the corps, because they seemed like they would benefit equally. I usually change farms to cottages after demcracy, and just let emancipation do the work. GP's are more valuable early it seems anyway, and farms are less pillagable than towns, so I prefer them in the early game. It seemed in my test that in the end commerce wins, but for most of the game specialists are most effective. I just think you have to pick a good spot to change.