CE vs SE Head-to-Head Experiment!

[Mr. Civtastic]

It cracks me up how so many people play the "logic" card on these types of forums, as if its the end-all to arguments or improves their credibility.

1. "If you look at it logically..."
2. "The logical thing to do is..."
3. "You arent being logical..."
4. "Logic says that you should..."
5. and the newest one that makes me laugh

I got an A+ in my undergraduate logic class.

I mean give me a break. All this stuff is subjective. Most of these "facts" are subjective and highly modified by circumstance...all the different settings of the games, all the different decisions by the players that vary from game to game, all the different leaders, resources, neighbors, difficulty, etc etc. Its never going to be a slam dunk because its not 100% cut and dry. So playing the "logic" card, to me, is a way of saying "Im smarter then you (or "Im very smart") so Im right, and if I say Im being logical, then I REALLY am being logical...and you arent".

 

[cabert]

This is really becoming ridiculous.
You don't pray at a chapel, why being dogmatic?

What is self evident after (tediously) reading these last posts is that different ways of playing are used, and that those different ways of playing lead to different priorities.
Wodan, you compare beakers / turn in a non situation game,
while Futurehermit looks at efficiency (both hammers and techs, and no techs is not exactly beakers) in warlike games, using a good set of civics,
while acidsatyr looks at lightbulbing tradable techs in a high level situation game while surviving = needing flexibility.

Since you don't share goals, you cannot agree on what is best. I know, noone used the word "best", but it's underlying in every post.

Let's see it this way:
- there are different ways to play this game
- different map/level/leader/goals lead to different strategies working best
- enjoy the variety and don't try to prove unprovable things, be they true or not

For my part, I'm rather happy to see that in game situations, you can switch from one option to the other, adjusting as good as you can to what you have in your hands.
Less maths, more game!

I agree with Mr civtastic, who is faster than I am (but I certainly am the clever, logical guy here, hey I'm an engineer, and always had the best grades in my maths class )

 

[Wodan]

Good points, both of you.

To me, what it comes down to is when someone makes a statement that something is "better".

My first thought is, "Hunh, that's not my experience."
My second thought is, "What is she doing that I'm not? i.e., Is there some strategy I could be using?"
My third is, "Let's give the benefit of the doubt and say she didn't think it through or is thinking of something else; after all, she didn't give anything behind it; she just threw the bald statement out there. I'll ask."

So, I don't feel badly about asking questions. It doesn't bother me that someone plays differently... actually I think that's great. One of the things I like most about this game is all the different play styles and paths to victory. I enjoy trying different things, and that's part of the reason (besides my bizarre don quixote willingness to argue both sides just to keep a debate suitably lively) that I am interested in what other people do and think. When someone points something out to me that I haven't tried before in the game, that makes my day.

Anyway, I'm not being defensive or anything, just trying to explain. I was the first to get "sarky" I think was my word. Like I said, I was in an odd mood the other day, and I apologize for that.

Wodan

 

[Ralgar]

My second thought is, "What is she doing that I'm not?"

This is offtopic:
I'm not a native speaker of English and I regularly stumble on this wording, because I mistakenly think (for some milliseconds) an actual girl/woman is meant. I encountered it in some academic articles lately. Is this only political-correctness-speak or also common talk?

 

[futurehermit]

Acidsatyr and I were responding to being bombarded with internet links to logical terminology. I don't see why coming back and saying we understand logic makes us jerks.

Anyways, Wodan seems to continually skirting what we are trying to illustrate, which is that a SE's cities will grow back faster after whipping meaning working specialists again faster than a CE will be working cottages, meaning greater synergy with whipping in the SE economy. Acidsatyr and I have both had a lot of experience with this at the higher levels and know what we're talking about, yet he continues to try and deny that. It's fine if he wants to believe that himself, but I believe it's important to try and illustrate the truth of the matter for others who read this thread.

 

[cabert]

Acidsatyr and I were responding to being bombarded with internet links to logical terminology. (...)

We all know you know how to play a good SE (you made enough articles/threads about it). We also all know Acidsatyr plays it agressively (he showed it in his immortal thread).

Wodan already apologized, no need to push harder

 

[futurehermit]

I was responding to people who were criticizing us for saying we understand logic (see Mr. Civ...)

 

[DaveMcW]

Less talk, more experimenting please.

From what I can see so far, CE is far superior because it's impossible to complete a SE game.

 

[acidsatyr]

I don't understand why people come here to sharpen their logic skill rather then concentrate on what’s important.
and futurhermit is right , I don’t think its fair to attack him, neither he or me started all this logical nonsense.
Also Wodan, apology is excepted. We’re all friends here, I don’t think its cool we have to spend 3 pages of useless posts beating around the bush...

Cabert, the way we all play (the way you mentioned it), has absolutely nothing to do with several points we’re trying to establish here. They are independent of my or any other style of play.

There are few things that need to be addressed in every economy. Economy does not begin with research only. In includes production among other things. This is very important to understand. In both theory, and reality SE and CE will build their infrastructure at different rates - SE will build its infrastructure considerably faster. Most of the time this will be done trough slaver - the reason why this type of shield production is more common and advantageous to SE is because of the nature it operates.

The points I’m trying to make are simply these

1. Cities in SE grow considerably faster than cities in CE, just because of they nature of its economy.
2. SE is very shield rich economy – most of its production comes from farms, NOT from mines.
3. The volume of whipping in successful SE is considerably larger than the one in CE, again because of the nature it works. While it is obviously true that both economies can use whipping as much as they like to, extensive whipping is far more detrimental for CE economy than it is for SE.

While some of these points, such as # 1 and # 2 can be easily proven mathematically, others are result of long hours of experimenting with both economies. Like I said, the best way to see that the points I listed here are true, is to run solo games on your own.

 

[UncleJJ]

There are few things that need to be addressed in every economy. Economy does not begin with research only. In includes production among other things. This is very important to understand. In both theory, and reality SE and CE will build their infrastructure at different rates - SE will build its infrastructure considerably faster. Most of the time this will be done trough slaver - the reason why this type of shield production is more common and advantageous to SE is because of the nature it operates.

The points I’m trying to make are simply these

1. Cities in SE grow considerably faster than cities in CE, just because of they nature of its economy.
2. SE is very shield rich economy – most of its production comes from farms, NOT from mines.
3. The volume of whipping in successful SE is considerably larger than the one in CE, again because of the nature it works. While it is obviously true that both economies can use whipping as much as they like to, extensive whipping is far more detrimental for CE economy than it is for SE.

While some of these points, such as # 1 and # 2 can be easily proven mathematically, others are result of long hours of experimenting with both economies. Like I said, the best way to see that the points I listed here are true, is to run solo games on your own.

I agree with all this acidsatyr. You have expressed what I would say on the subject very clearly.

Wodan seems to have lost faith in Slavery for some reason I can't comprehend.

 

[cabert]

I don't understand why people come here to sharpen their logic skill rather then concentrate on what’s important.

this is where you fall in a trap again.
Nobody defined what's important.

Cabert, the way we all play (the way you mentioned it), has absolutely nothing to do with several points we’re trying to establish here. They are independent of my or any other style of play.

Yes it does have something to do with it, see above (what's important!)

There are few things that need to be addressed in every economy. Economy does not begin with research only. In includes production among other things.

for almost everyone but you, economy doesn't include hammers
that's exactly what I said earlier : no definition = no way to prove anything

Wodan seems to have lost faith in Slavery for some reason I can't comprehend.

because of a test run in another thread! (although a very debatable one)

 

[UncleJJ]

because of a test run in another thread! (although a very debatable one)

The test(s) in that thread did not convince me of anything about slavery. I voiced my reservations there and won't repeat them here. .

 

[Dirk1302]

Less talk, more experimenting please.

From what I can see so far, CE is far superior because it's impossible to complete a SE game.

Even having read some posts but never having tried an SE i was of the same opinion as you, how can specialists beat cottages that have up to 8 commerce a square(towns) with a financial leader and the right civics?. you even get a free hammer with US.

But when i began trying SE with pyramids on Monarch i quickly found out that
i won the game more convincingly than with former cottage strategies (always using space race in both economies). Your economy starts of much quicker, (more farms so more settlers or units, more gp for LB) so usually you have a larger empire late game than with cottages.

Late game the comparision is (very roughly and out of my head)

CE: 8 commerce/square + 1 hammer (financial leader, right civics)
SE: One farm, one specialist = 6 beakers or 3 beakers + ~ 3 something else

so raw output of CE/square is somewhat higher than SE/square but late game you still get lots of scientists taking reseach turns of techs or starting space race golden ages etc..

I'll try to pickup the challenge at the beginning of this thread going for space race and post the results. It may take some time though.

 

[cabert]

I don't know why people complain in this thread.
A test has been run.
Results given.

If the results don't suit your opinion, run a test suiting your way to play the game (sorry acidsatyr, but it's really here that this discussion lacks ground).

This thread will be the arena for a comparison between a non-Pyramids/non-Philosophical SE (Specialist Economy) and a non-Financial CE (Cottage Economy).

You cannot expect to find results you'd have with a philo pyramids SE, can you?

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

Wodan seems to have lost faith in Slavery for some reason I can't comprehend.

Because it isnt logical?

 

[Wodan]

This is offtopic:
I'm not a native speaker of English and I regularly stumble on this wording, because I mistakenly think (for some milliseconds) an actual girl/woman is meant. I encountered it in some academic articles lately. Is this only political-correctness-speak or also common talk?

Many people do it as a sort of "reverse discrimination" against the common practice of using the male terms to describe both males and females. I do it sometimes as much for that as a change of pace, or to make sure the reader is paying attention. I wasn't intentionally doing that here, but I think that is a valid usage.

Acidsatyr and I were responding to being bombarded with internet links to logical terminology. I don't see why coming back and saying we understand logic makes us jerks.

I didn't think you were being jerks. At worst, you ignored the point I was making (perhaps the logical fallacies I was pointing out were indeed being exhibited in this thread). At best, you were simply respond and saying "yes I get it". No offense either way, I think. In any case, that's about all I have to say on that.

Anyways, Wodan seems to continually skirting what we are trying to illustrate, which is that a SE's cities will grow back faster after whipping meaning working specialists again faster than a CE will be working cottages, meaning greater synergy with whipping in the SE economy. Acidsatyr and I have both had a lot of experience with this at the higher levels and know what we're talking about, yet he continues to try and deny that. It's fine if he wants to believe that himself, but I believe it's important to try and illustrate the truth of the matter for others who read this thread.

I've not once denigrated you guys or said you lacked experience. If you got that impression, I apologize, but that wasn't my intent.

Consider this: it's a proven fact that driving at 60 mph provides better miles per gallon (fuel economy) than driving at 80 mph.

You guys seem to be stating that driving at 80 mph is better, and ignore the possibility that driving more slowly might result in better mpg.

Wodan seems to have lost faith in Slavery for some reason I can't comprehend.

because of a test run in another thread! (although a very debatable one)

Thank you cabert. Yes, he's right. (And yes I agree it's debatable.)

Wodan

 

[frob2900]

I'm a first time poster on these forums, but I've been following the CE vs SE discussions and thought I'd add some observations (hopefully I'm not repeating too much that has already been said)

In my opinion the SE does lend itself to warring better than the CE for two reasons: whipping (which has already been said) and the fact that the culture slider can be set very high without ruining the economy. The second fact is in my opinion a very strong point for the SE..

That said the SE in my test games is quite science weak compared to the CE. I don't know what kind of beakers people are getting from their cities in the early industrial age, but in my games the CE during peace time averages about 100 per city with ca 300 in the science city. For specialist economies I generally get about 40-60 per city with perhaps 200 in the scientist farm and 200 or 400 in the capital depending on if I'm philosophical and settling scientists.

However during wartime it's very easy to tank ones CE economy due to war weariness (I dont know about you people but at monarch after 2.08 patch it seems necessary fight enormous stacks of enemy cavalry on their territory, especially in a CE where one is terrified of letting the enemy close to ones own cities. This then leads to massive war weariness). With a SE with high culture one can keep the pressure up against the AI with almost indefinite warring...

Also, there is a fun idea (got from the Super Size Me Challenge) which I've made to work almost 100% on prince and perhaps 1/3 of the times on monarch. Basically try to get biology ca 800-1200 AD and then run a hyper-charged SE or whip economy (depending on peace/war). The regrowth from whipping is just enormous using this techniqu (with no unhappiness issues since I can set the culture slider so high). Unfortunately I've never made it to work with a non-philo leader and I've always had to cottage spam extensively in the beginning to be able to get biology so early, leading to a difficult decision of what to do with all those flood plain towns...

Finally, perhaps the biggest argument against the SE for me is the tedious micromanagement of specialists which is made worse by the sluggish response of the city screen when transferring specialists... Has anyone noticed this? It really takes a lot of fun away...

 

[futurehermit]

Umm...you can't finish a SE game? SE can't compete with MAXED OUT cottages? Sorry, but you must not know what the hell you're doing. Sorry for getting upset, but honestly, some of these comments just illustrate to me that you people don't know what you're talking about.

The STRENGTH of a SE game is prior to liberalism. You don't get maxed out uber cottages until after liberalism. Cottages take time to grow and their civics come late in the game.

I just finished a domination game with Ramses (Monarch, continents, normal, improved AI mod, patched warlords). Had stone. Stone + industrious, built pyramids. Ran SE. Got liberalism first. Picked nationalism. Researched military tradition. Upgraded a bunch of veteran war chariots with the $2500 I had saved up from running research at 0%. Went on to dominate my large continent with cavalry when everyone else had longbows. Had a huge empire, way huger than you can run with CE because there were times when I was running a deficit with 0% science (yet pulling down tons of beakers with specialists in all of those cities).

Yes, maxed out uber cottages are great late game, but you can't ignore all of the early eras when the SE has been demonstrated time and again to be superior. I am not saying SE > CE late game, because it's not. But prior to liberalism, SE is hands down the stronger economy (and, no, i'm not including hammers, although the SE will also produce greater amounts of hammers thanks to slavery, etc.).

You guys can ignore what acidsatyr and I are saying, or talk your way around what we're saying, but some of the stuff you're saying is just plain wrong or problematic, and that's just not fair imo.

You can dislike the SE, but don't bash it because you don't understand it.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

How would you guys summarize the strong points of a CE and an SE in a few sentences?

 

[Wodan]

You can dislike the SE, but don't bash it because you don't understand it.

I don't think anyone's been bashing at SE lately. Certainly not me. Go back and read the thread from post #1 if you doubt.

Wodan