Celts in Civ VI

[Zaarin]

I want #1, but my money is on #3. Again. Hello, Welsh-speaking dreadlocked tattooed kilted Neopagan Boudicca with a woad warrior in a ceilidh in Edinburgh. Can we give her a claddagh this time? Can she riverdance when she meets you? Can Celtic Woman perform her leader theme?

 

[The Kingmaker]

It's that weird dissonance between the different attributes they chose to include that really made it feel off.

It'd be like choosing Bismarck as the German leader, but putting him on Charlemagne's throne in Aachen. While dressed like the Technoviking. And blaring Falco's "Rock me, Amadeus." And speaking heavily accented Swiss German. Saying "ich bin ein Berliner."

 

[Zaarin]

Yeah, they completely ignored the fact that she was a 3rd century Iceni queen (and probably highly Romanized) and turned her into a symbol of modern Pan-Celtic Nationalism, while trying to stuff as many symbols and emblems of modern Celtic nations into her as possible. But leaving out the Bretons, because apparently they don't count. On which note, as long as we're Balkanizing Europe, I wouldn't mind seeing Brittany as a civilization in the future...

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Celtic history, culture, states and sensibilities have been thoroughly trashed ever since Wally Scott made the garb of a common cattle thief into the National Costume of Scotland. Firaxis merely carries on a 200 year old tradition highlighted by 'Rob Roy' (or "Cattle Rustler Turns National Hero") and "Braveheart" (throw a bunch of sticks at Highland clansmen and call them pikemen!). In fact, after those clunkers, Firaxis is positively benign.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Cultures are tricky things. What they were, what they became, what they are now and what people wish they were are usually four very different things.

This can apply to any culture, not just the ones we've been discussing.

 

[Zaarin]

Celtic history, culture, states and sensibilities have been thoroughly trashed ever since Wally Scott made the garb of a common cattle thief into the National Costume of Scotland. Firaxis merely carries on a 200 year old tradition highlighted by 'Rob Roy' (or "Cattle Rustler Turns National Hero") and "Braveheart" (throw a bunch of sticks at Highland clansmen and call them pikemen!). In fact, after those clunkers, Firaxis is positively benign.

True enough. I actually did a paper in college on James Macpherson's Ossian, Iolo Morganwg, and the forgeries underlying Celtic romanticism.

Though on the note of "Cattle Rustler Turns National Hero," that at least has an authentic Celtic precedent in Táin Bó Cúialnge.

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

I could make the case, having been exposed to college for a number of years, that 'college' and 'educated' do not necessarily have anything to do with each other. As the old saying goes:
BS - everybody knows what that means
MS - means 'More of the Same'
PhD - means 'Piled Higher and Deeper'

Geeze man, way to temper the ambitions of youth.

To take a lesson from the Civ V Modders, in several of the Modded Civs (Switzerland, Olmecs for instance) they tried to model 'confederacies' similar to the Tribal Confederacy of the Celts.

That's actually an interesting idea for an expansion. It would be interesting to have a mechanic to represent civilizations that were culturally and linguistically unified and politically intertwined without acting as a monolithic whole, confederations like the Gauls, Iroquois, Cherokee, Creek, Mitanni, Holy Roman Empire, Medieval Ireland, etc.

I actually used the Creek mod in Civ5. Units gained different abilities based on the city they were trained in, which I thought was pretty interesting and is something I'd like to see officially in Civ6. It would even fit well with the idea of having to adjust to the terrain.

And, again, back to the subject of the thread.

Regardless of how much of it is Roman propaganda, I still think a Celtic (or Gaelic) civilization focused on faith generation would be best. They might not have had a single church or anything, but all their little neopagan traditions do still count as a religion, so faith bonuses (though perhaps not Great Prophet Point bonuses) would be nice. Even if the Gauls were Europe's first iron workers, being early iron workers is something I think is better suited for different civilizations, though then you're depending on what other civs the developers add. The other reason is a bit less dependent, which is the fact that druids and not iron are what the Celts are famous for, and that's generally what Civilization uses. They take aspects that people with only passing familiarity with the culture would know about and then (with obvious exceptions) integrate them with deeper research taken into consideration.

That being said, while Oppidum might have been more prevalent in actuality than Nemeton, I still think a Celtic/Gaelic Civ would be more interesting with the latter. Production and housing from Oppidum could be an interesting unique tile improvement, but having a more religious focus just feels more right.

Besides, having a unique tile improvement which generates faith and is built on forest would have great synergy with the Holy Site's adjacency bonus from forests. You could incorporate other rough terrain bonuses and I think you'd have a pretty coherent (in terms of game play) and interesting civ which would play into the terrain-dependency idea in Civ6.

 

[The Kingmaker]

I want #1, but my money is on #3. Again. Hello, Welsh-speaking dreadlocked tattooed kilted Neopagan Boudicca with a woad warrior in a ceilidh in Edinburgh. Can we give her a claddagh this time? Can she riverdance when she meets you? Can Celtic Woman perform her leader theme?

What do you think of this concept art as a replacement for Civ5's kilt'n'woad Boudicymraeg? I think it's about as good as we're likely to get.

Her garb is perhaps not as Romanized as one might expect from a family of collaborators, but certain excuses could be made for it. Perhaps she's eschewed Roman garments as symbols of the hated interlopers, or perhaps her Roman gowns were simply unsuitable for roughing it out in the wilds, and only a traditional woolen cloak would do.

And of course the developers want to meet gamers' expectations of what a Celt should look like. So... a happy medium, perhaps?

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

Compromise works great when it's not 1850 AD.

Personally I'd like leaders other than Boudicca. She lead a rebellion which failed and then died shortly after, there's gotta be a more successful leader to choose.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Compromise works great when it's not 1850 AD.

Personally I'd like leaders other than Boudicca. She lead a rebellion which failed and then died shortly after, there's gotta be a more successful leader to choose.

Not so much advocating for her as trying to come up with the least objectionable version of her for when we inevitably get her in an XP.

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

Oh, let's not be so defeatist about it.

 

[Zaarin]

Regardless of how much of it is Roman propaganda, I still think a Celtic (or Gaelic) civilization focused on faith generation would be best. They might not have had a single church or anything, but all their little neopagan traditions do still count as a religion, so faith bonuses (though perhaps not Great Prophet Point bonuses) would be nice. Even if the Gauls were Europe's first iron workers, being early iron workers is something I think is better suited for different civilizations, though then you're depending on what other civs the developers add. The other reason is a bit less dependent, which is the fact that druids and not iron are what the Celts are famous for, and that's generally what Civilization uses. They take aspects that people with only passing familiarity with the culture would know about and then (with obvious exceptions) integrate them with deeper research taken into consideration.

That being said, while Oppidum might have been more prevalent in actuality than Nemeton, I still think a Celtic/Gaelic Civ would be more interesting with the latter. Production and housing from Oppidum could be an interesting unique tile improvement, but having a more religious focus just feels more right.

Besides, having a unique tile improvement which generates faith and is built on forest would have great synergy with the Holy Site's adjacency bonus from forests. You could incorporate other rough terrain bonuses and I think you'd have a pretty coherent (in terms of game play) and interesting civ which would play into the terrain-dependency idea in Civ6.

Religion is a charged word, but based on what is and is not a religion in Civ6, I would say that the Gauls had no religion; they had a pantheon belief. Religious bonuses are better given to civs that either founded religions or were strongly tied to religions: Byzantium, Ireland, Armenia, Persia--those are the sort of civs that merit serious religious bonuses in my opinion (list not meant to be exhaustive). Not civilizations associated with modern "neopagan mysticism that in no way resembles the actual practices of ancient paganism." Also, oppida are much more unique than nemeta; sacred groves in and of themselves are hardly unique and the word probably referred to any place of worship. Religious bonuses for the Celts are just playing on modern romanticized stereotypes of the Celts derived from eighteenth century nationalism; just once I'd like to see a more historical representation of the civilization. The Celts were a unique and accomplished civilization; there's no need to paint them with the rose tinted glasses of "nos ancêtres les gaulois" or MacPhersonism.

What do you think of this concept art as a replacement for Civ5's kilt'n'woad Boudicymraeg? I think it's about as good as we're likely to get.

Her garb is perhaps not as Romanized as one might expect from a family of collaborators, but certain excuses could be made for it. Perhaps she's eschewed Roman garments as symbols of the hated interlopers, or perhaps her Roman gowns were simply unsuitable for roughing it out in the wilds, and only a traditional woolen cloak would do.

And of course the developers want to meet gamers' expectations of what a Celt should look like. So... a happy medium, perhaps?

Well, I don't object to tartan; bog bodies show that the Celts have been wearing it pretty much since Halstatt. If we absolutely must have Boudicca, then giving her the "Merida in tartan" look is better than the "dreadlocked woad Braveheart" look.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Religion is a charged word, but based on what is and is not a religion in Civ6, I would say that the Gauls had no religion; they had a pantheon belief. Religious bonuses are better given to civs that either founded religions or were strongly tied to religions: Byzantium, Ireland, Armenia, Persia--those are the sort of civs that merit serious religious bonuses in my opinion (list not meant to be exhaustive). Not civilizations associated with modern "neopagan mysticism that in no way resembles the actual practices of ancient paganism." Also, oppida are much more unique than nemeta; sacred groves in and of themselves are hardly unique and the word probably referred to any place of worship. Religious bonuses for the Celts are just playing on modern romanticized stereotypes of the Celts derived from eighteenth century nationalism; just once I'd like to see a more historical representation of the civilization. The Celts were a unique and accomplished civilization; there's no need to paint them with the rose tinted glasses of "nos ancêtres les gaulois" or MacPhersonism.

- And the Celts and even the Gallic sub-division of them have a number of different historical, specific traits that are perfectly suitable for rendition in game terms: their reported ferocity in the attack, surpassing metal-working skills, astronomical/defensive constructions - just for a few.
And there are even less-known characteristics that could be modeled. Gauls were 'hired' by both Carthage and Rome: they could be a Civilization that can rent out its warriors to other Civs for Gold or other considerations.
All of this, and even the loose, 'tribal' organization, give a more specific set of traits than another Religious Improvement or Building.

Well, I don't object to tartan; bog bodies show that the Celts have been wearing it pretty much since Halstatt. If we absolutely must have Boudicca, then giving her the "Merida in tartan" look is better than the "dreadlocked woad Braveheart" look.

Just a footnote, but although it is indelibly identified with the Celts/Scots, a tartan is in fact the easiest patterned cloth to weave and is therefore not uniquely Celtic. The Thracians are described by their Greek neighbors as wearing "patterned (wool) cloaks" - and playing a form of bagpipe! (which, in turn, is also found amongst the Basques) Of course, they were also described as fierce tribal warriors, so perhaps all the characteristics are a package ...

 

[Liufeng]

What do you think of this concept art as a replacement for Civ5's kilt'n'woad Boudicymraeg? I think it's about as good as we're likely to get.

Her garb is perhaps not as Romanized as one might expect from a family of collaborators, but certain excuses could be made for it. Perhaps she's eschewed Roman garments as symbols of the hated interlopers, or perhaps her Roman gowns were simply unsuitable for roughing it out in the wilds, and only a traditional woolen cloak would do.

And of course the developers want to meet gamers' expectations of what a Celt should look like. So... a happy medium, perhaps?

Well, I believe it wouldn't be that bad, but I kinda lost faith in Firaxis after the assyrian Gilgamesh, the Frederick II wearing a XVth century armor and totally clownish Montezuma ... At least they didn't put horns on Harald's helmet

 

[Zaarin]

Gauls were 'hired' by both Carthage and Rome: they could be a Civilization that can rent out its warriors to other Civs for Gold or other considerations.

As were the Celtiberians and Galatians. Celtic mercenaries were definitely a major thing in Antiquity; it would be interesting if the game could portray that in some manner.

Just a footnote, but although it is indelibly identified with the Celts/Scots, a tartan is in fact the easiest patterned cloth to weave and is therefore not uniquely Celtic. The Thracians are described by their Greek neighbors as wearing "patterned (wool) cloaks" - and playing a form of bagpipe! (which, in turn, is also found amongst the Basques) Of course, they were also described as fierce tribal warriors, so perhaps all the characteristics are a package ...

Interesting. In her book Women's Work: The First 20,000 Years: Women, Cloth, and Society in Early Times, Elizabeth Wayland Barber mentions an Iron Age bog body that wore tartan, but I wasn't aware the Thracians wore it as well. (It's a good book, by the way; I highly recommend it. Very approachable, and very informative.)

Well, I believe it wouldn't be that bad, but I kinda lost faith in Firaxis after the assyrian Gilgamesh, the Frederick II wearing a XVth century armor and totally clownish Montezuma ... At least they didn't put horns on Harald's helmet

I think the "Vikings did not have horned helmets" thing got pounded into people. Now if we could just do the same with woad (again, it's an astringent that burns flesh). But yeah, the level of accuracy in leader depictions doesn't exactly inspire confidence...

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

As were the Celtiberians and Galatians. Celtic mercenaries were definitely a major thing in Antiquity; it would be interesting if the game could portray that in some manner..

Or, for that matter, the entire usage of mercenaries throughout history, as in no city-dwelling civ ever produced Horse Achers, they always hired them from the nearest batch of mounted pastoralists, or, a number of German minor states that made a good economic thing out of hiring out their armies to others ("Hessians" were from any of up to 17 different Hessian statelets in the 18th century!). Another of the many lacunae in the game...

Interesting. In her book Women's Work: The First 20,000 Years: Women, Cloth, and Society in Early Times, Elizabeth Wayland Barber mentions an Iron Age bog body that wore tartan, but I wasn't aware the Thracians wore it as well. (It's a good book, by the way; I highly recommend it. Very approachable, and very informative.)

I'm aware of the book - my sister, who is both a weaver and a PhD in archeology, directed me to it several years ago. The evidence for the Thracian tartans is from Bulgarian excavations of Thracian sites, a Greek description of "- a long cloak, the zebra, geometrically patterned in bright colors" and an Athenian relief from about 350 BCE showing the Thracian Goddess Bendis wearing a cloak patterned in geometrc squares, which, lacking color as it is now, is a good rendition of a tartan pattern. I'm afraid I got fanatically interested in the costume and weapons of the peoples in and around Macedonia circa 350 - 300 BCE right after college, when I was painting up a miniature Macedonian Army with all its 'auxiliary' troops. As a beginning and mediocre painter, the idea of doing a tartan pattern on the cloaks of a 1 inch high figure scared the spit out of me!

 

[The Kingmaker]

Tartan clothing has even been found on Tocharian mummies uncovered in China's Tarim Basin.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Tartan clothing has even been found on Tocharian mummies uncovered in China's Tarim Basin.

Not surprising. If you are weaving any kind of thread, and color it first, the tartan is the simplest and easiest pattern to weave. If cloth were better preserved in archeological sites, I'd bet big money that tartan patterns would be associated with a lot more peoples and groups.

 

[The Kingmaker]

No, it's not surprising. But it is pretty neat!

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

Religion is a charged word, but based on what is and is not a religion in Civ6, I would say that the Gauls had no religion; they had a pantheon belief.

Not in the context of Civ6's religion system (which is why I said faith and not great prophet points), but its still beliefs in the supernatural. Again, not a single church, but enough to bring faith bonuses into consideration. Faith founds pantheons, after all.

Also, oppida are much more unique than nemeta; sacred groves in and of themselves are hardly unique and the word probably referred to any place of worship.

Well, Stele are hardly uniquely Ethiopian, and yet they've been the unique building for Ethiopia twice.

Religious bonuses for the Celts are just playing on modern romanticized stereotypes of the Celts derived from eighteenth century nationalism; just once I'd like to see a more historical representation of the civilization. The Celts were a unique and accomplished civilization; there's no need to paint them with the rose tinted glasses of "nos ancêtres les gaulois" or MacPhersonism.

Fair enough, I can understand that desire even if its not the vision I'd pursue if I were the developers.

Gauls were 'hired' by both Carthage and Rome: they could be a Civilization that can rent out its warriors to other Civs for Gold or other considerations.

Or, for that matter, the entire usage of mercenaries throughout history, as in no city-dwelling civ ever produced Horse Achers, they always hired them from the nearest batch of mounted pastoralists, or, a number of German minor states that made a good economic thing out of hiring out their armies to others ("Hessians" were from any of up to 17 different Hessian statelets in the 18th century!). Another of the many lacunae in the game...

I do wish we could levy some units from other civilizations and not just city states.