CEP: Armies

Looking over the replacement for 3.13 on github as it stood a week ago, some notes for the proposed adjustments:

1) It looked like the following upgrade paths didn't make sense (to me at least).

Destroyer-Carrier-Missile Destroyer. Carriers were fine as a one-off unit and destroyers were fine in the path as it existed, they were just way too cheap. That's being addressed, but I'm not sure the path was a necessary adjustment.

Arques-Gatling Gun? What was wrong with Arques being a non-iron alternative in the chain and with gatling guns being simply a path straight up from crossbows?

I assume airborne upgrades to XCom, just didn't see it on the list given everything else being on there.

2) Longsword-Musket is fixed. Woot.

3) Unit cost/stat changes
It looked like "vanguard" infantry units discount is being removed, but their strength was also increased (roughly 10-15%). The main change to the assault units would be access to the siege promotion, I think they were fine in strength and the "discount" would be they don't require resources where swords did.

The changes to the gatling through bazooka line look fine stat wise. They may not need a discount to be worthwhile... if the gunpowder attack units alongside them aren't buffed in strength.

XCOM unit seems absurdly strong now (155?)

There also appears to be a return of the defence promotion on the spear-pike line. This might be okay in relative terms to balance against mounted and ranged units it's just strange that it also applies to arques.
 
Why don't we go back to GEM's method of making strategic resource units quite a bit more powerful, but also making strategic resources much rarer (1-3 per tile instead of 2 - 8).

That method was loads of fun and had the advantage of being super simple. Certainly more intuitive than the confusing vanguard/machine gun/soldier/weird upgrade paths we have now.

Common soldier units upgrade to the next common soldier unit. Strategic elite units upgrade to the next strategic elite unit. Period. Easy.
 
Delekhan, that works except for one aspect, which appears to be the root of the various disagreements in unit paths and value.

Infantry units post-gunpowder do not have a resource requirement, neither do (should) ranged infantry units. So there is no "strategic elite" unit for them to upgrade from. I think this is fine and that the path should simply condense the pike-sword distinctions into one group of units with the same mix of abilities and keep the ranged units as a separate path, and in general this seems to be what the mod is going to do in the next patch of changes, but it isn't as simple as saying "elite units upgrade to elite units" either because the elite units effectively disappear (or rather, they shift to naval ranged ships around the same time).

I don't think there's disagreement on the points of strategic unit value being "elite", it seems to be, or for the relative rarity of such resources being important, which it doesn't for some reason.
 
I think that's fine as far as infantry go. Over time cavalry and then armor become the crack, hard-charging portions of an army. GEM had it 100% right, it worked, and if I do say so, it was fantastic fun.

I have read over these discussions a few times and am rather confused as to how we arrived at the current scheme, which seems convoluted and counter-intuitive. It's like the Communitas version of New Coke. I miss my Coca-Cola Classic (GEM's armies)
 
Part of it was largely abolishing vanguards from GEM left some adjusting of roles. It's not the same just keeps the meat from GEM instead of some of the bones.

I'm not sure how we ended up with longswords upgrading to gatling guns from there though. ;)
 
There's some edited files in there on a branch. It does not appear finished (I think) or ready for release so my comments shouldn't be taken as "gospel this is the next version". But these were some of the bits of editing in there too that looked to be completed changes that I felt worthy of commentary. Given that we know a certain set of changes are needed and in the works, and most of them are in here, it's more haggling over a few peculiarities like this.

The other (potentially good) army related change looks like an amendment to the AI XP bonus (free XP it gets), maxing it out via the handicap rather than letting it run up into the hundreds by the middle-late game.
 
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