CFC Off Topic Turned Me Into a Fascist

[Merkinball]

See, making obvious blanket statements directed at nothing special, and then following up with an extremely unproven and controversial statement you hope someone will gloss over, doesn't mean it will always be missed and not called out.


Only the fact that hundreds of years and millions of people have debated things like the effect of criminal punishment vs. rehabilitation or deterrence, etc... I'd say that having "western legal systems" as a whole, as opposed to religious law or harsh "eye for an eye" police state types of justice, have a TREMENDOUS impact on crime from the types of crime committed to the rates of many.

No, not really. There are lots of nations that have western legal systems that are practically devoid of violent crime. And there are "eye for an eye" types of societies that are rife with crime.

Crime has a heck of a lot more to do with how people view themselves and their neighbors than it does with the legal system they live under.

 

[Earthling]

Ah, I should have approached this another way as well - ever read any of the tumultuous and heated threads around here recently about "honor killing?" I wasn't arguing at all that "eye for an eye" systems typically led to lower crime, if anything, your statement would just prove my point.

 

[aelf]

he's a ukip voter.

I didn't know they registered the UK Idiots' Party.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

OK Islamic countries tend to have very low criminal rates compared to the west, probably do to cultural reasons and Islamic law m'kay.

Interestingly, Islam preaches a social support network is holy and worthy of God's children. Those evil socialists, corrupting the Middle East since the 7th Century AD!

 

[Huayna Capac357]

As a response to Merkinball's very interesting I must admit Djibouti problem, I say this:

The reason is not poverty in itself but inequality. In Djibouti, the standard of living is not very high for everybody. However, people in the ghettos of, say, Detroit, see everyday the prosperity and good life of other Americans, even other Detroiters. Thus, the cycle of crime begins. It might be interpreted as jealousy, but then again, it is jealousy for a better life, for better health care.

Hope that is coherent.

 

[Merkinball]

As a response to Merkinball's very interesting I must admit Djibouti problem, I say this:

The reason is not poverty in itself but inequality. In Djibouti, the standard of living is not very high for everybody. However, people in the ghettos of, say, Detroit, see everyday the prosperity and good life of other Americans, even other Detroiters. Thus, the cycle of crime begins. It might be interpreted as jealousy, but then again, it is jealousy for a better life, for better health care.

Hope that is coherent.

This is why I talked about how close the rich areas of Djibouti were to the poor parts. We'd do patrols and watch the poor fishermen walking out on the tidal flat gazing at the rich villas owned by the French and Djiboutian politicians. The old ladies that hacked wood outside the city would lug it miles to the rich downtown restaurants that we wined and dined at. The villas to the north were all in plain view. New housing developments sprung up within eye-sight of the worst, most awful slum I've ever seen called Arhiba.

Inequality doesn't matter any more than poverty. The people of Arhiba and Balbala all made less than a dollar a day. They all live in tin shacks. None of them have plumbing. None of them have water in their houses. The kids don't go to school at all. They live in filthy sewage/garbage smelling hellholes. They see the prosperity of the millionaires of Djibouti and of the world on display just as much, maybe even more so than the people who live in our own ghettos. And the disparity is far worse. To compare a poor family that recieves thousands of dollars in aid, lives comfortably in America, receives enough food to eat, has access to education, etc, etc, versus a millionaire, to a person that struggles to live on a dollar a day versus a millionaire...what's the deal?

The strange thing is that a poor person in an American ghetto has a fair and equal chance to get the hell out of it. Most kids in the slums and poor villages of DJ will never even get that opportunity. They're destined for day labor and herding goats. Yet, you see no insurrection over there, and nothing but people trying to help one another through hard times. Here, we get some crack with our welfare check and go kill brothaz on the other side of town. We funnel guns into our schools and kill dozens of young people. I'm sorry, but there's no justification for it other than we have a debauched society that's completely disconnected from itself. Djibouti may be disconnected between the rich and the poor for sure, but it's neighborhoods and brotherhood are still in tact. They get by via togetherness. Our black people get by via killing their neighbors and selling drugs. It's an abomination.

It's a common tale that if an African American goes to Nairobi and tells someone there that he's African American, that he'll get mugged on the spot. There's a reason for that.

 

[Earthling]

Yeah, I was wondering how you were doing so well hiding these opinions of yours when you were accusing Winner of racism in that other thread. The idea that "blacks in Africa are alright, but blacks in the US are criminal scum" is abhorrent, if anything.

 

[Merkinball]

Yeah, I was wondering how you were doing so well hiding these opinions of yours when you were accusing Winner of racism in that other thread. The idea that "blacks in Africa are alright, but blacks in the US are criminal scum" is abhorrent, if anything.

Facts aren't racist.

 

[Yeekim]

Facts aren't racist.

+1.
Also, aren't you a black American yourself?

Blacks face inferior education. Discrimination in employment and housing. A government that uses very thinly veiled racism to win elections and neglect of them, when not open hostility while in office. A black is more likely to be falsely convicted of a crime. And more likely to be arrested for no reason other than that they are black. If convicted of an equal crime as a white, is more likely to get a more severe punishment. Music, sports, and crime are the best chances to get out of poverty for poor blacks. Education and hard work are not (at least in the perception of many of them).

In short, a poor black person simply has less reason to have any respect for society or laws or other people. The life experiences of poor whites and poor blacks in the US are in no way comparable.

I have a hunch it's all about getting one's priorities straight...

Seeing as socialism has never existed, I see no reason to differentiate.

Numerous failed attempts at putting theory into practice < "never existed".

 

[Erik Mesoy]

It's okay Cutlass, Erik is posting against the vast evidence many other posters have accumulated on CFC that all cops and police divisions across the US are systematically racist

My math professor used to joke that two plus two is five for large enough values of two and small enough values of five. My computer science teacher took it a notch further by writing "int five=4".

My question is, how small a value of 'racism' are you using? Because it seems we have large enough values for 'racial crime rate differentials' that some police behavior, viz. "targeting criminals", might be 'racism' according to some people. If you wish to claim this, I will happily cede the point and then argue that such racism should be required.

and the slightest statistical discrepancy proves it, and far more recent thatn 1990 or 1978 studies at that.

Such as articles from 2008, studies from 2003 and statistics from (1976 to) 2005?

Edit: Also, not trying to reproduce it here, but isn't "tw----" a quite offensive curse word in Britain - I only learned about it when in fact I saw some censoring on CFC, maybe not censored anymore?

I think you're thinking of a four-letter word. twaddle is something else.

Facts aren't racist.

According to Cutlass' sig, facts can be stupid, so why not racist?

I stopped reading Eric's posts when he started trolling me. So I neither know, nor give a damn, what he said.

And when, precisely, do you consider me to have started trolling you? From where I'm sitting it looks to me as though you started ignoring my posts when my arguments started inducing cognitive dissonance in your head full of racist prejudices, for example because you couldn't seriously defend your contention that black people should be excused from having to follow the law.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Moderator Action: Please do not make comments that can easily be construed as racist. Show more caution and discretion in discussing race, please.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

This is why I talked about how close the rich areas of Djibouti were to the poor parts. We'd do patrols and watch the poor fishermen walking out on the tidal flat gazing at the rich villas owned by the French and Djiboutian politicians. The old ladies that hacked wood outside the city would lug it miles to the rich downtown restaurants that we wined and dined at. The villas to the north were all in plain view. New housing developments sprung up within eye-sight of the worst, most awful slum I've ever seen called Arhiba.

Inequality doesn't matter any more than poverty. The people of Arhiba and Balbala all made less than a dollar a day. They all live in tin shacks. None of them have plumbing. None of them have water in their houses. The kids don't go to school at all. They live in filthy sewage/garbage smelling hellholes. They see the prosperity of the millionaires of Djibouti and of the world on display just as much, maybe even more so than the people who live in our own ghettos. And the disparity is far worse. To compare a poor family that recieves thousands of dollars in aid, lives comfortably in America, receives enough food to eat, has access to education, etc, etc, versus a millionaire, to a person that struggles to live on a dollar a day versus a millionaire...what's the deal?

The strange thing is that a poor person in an American ghetto has a fair and equal chance to get the hell out of it. Most kids in the slums and poor villages of DJ will never even get that opportunity. They're destined for day labor and herding goats. Yet, you see no insurrection over there, and nothing but people trying to help one another through hard times. Here, we get some crack with our welfare check and go kill brothaz on the other side of town. We funnel guns into our schools and kill dozens of young people. I'm sorry, but there's no justification for it other than we have a debauched society that's completely disconnected from itself. Djibouti may be disconnected between the rich and the poor for sure, but it's neighborhoods and brotherhood are still in tact. They get by via togetherness. Our black people get by via killing their neighbors and selling drugs. It's an abomination.

It's a common tale that if an African American goes to Nairobi and tells someone there that he's African American, that he'll get mugged on the spot. There's a reason for that.

Sorry, but I don't get your point. Please be more direct?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Numerous failed attempts at putting theory into practice < "never existed".

Is that supposed to be a "less than" sign, or is it a typo?

Unless you mean the failed European revolts in the late 1910s/early 1920s, I can't think of an attempt to put socialism "into practice." I can, however, think of various attempts to circumvent capitalism and go directly to socialism, attempts which proved the necessity of the capitalist phase as a precursor to socialism.

 

[Ecofarm]

So, Marx was right about one thing and wrong about 10 (including the crux of his ideology). Are we supposed to be impressed?

Yes a failed, doomed and debunked ideology would work better after everyone is rich. Gratz. Alot of stuff works fine in a homogeneous rich dispersed population; in fact, pretty much anything does. Show me an ideology that doesn't work in a rich, low-density, culturally homogeneous population - instead of one of any that would, and you can be an intellectual; otherwise, the logic is orcish (tm) or, more simply, circular.

 

[Gustave5436]

Numerous failed attempts at putting theory into practice < "never existed".

I'd call the Spanish Revolution fairly successful. Its demise at the hands of the twin fascist-Bolshevik menace which would later gobble up all Europe does not prove the failure of socialism any more than the fall of France proves the failure of republican government.

 

[Quackers]

Where is the Russian revolution? The "national socialist" revolution? The Chinese revolution? These ideas and systems of government are dead because it is incompatiable with human nature. The only true revolution that has continued to this day is the American revolution(or English civil war). Why is this? Because it is based on logic, therefore truth and compliments the human spirit. Freedom and democracy and that has trumped dictatorships everytime.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

Where is the Russian revolution? The "national socialist" revolution? The Chinese revolution? These ideas and systems of government are dead because it is incompatiable with human nature. The only true revolution that has continued to this day is the American revolution(or English civil war). Why is this? Because it is based on logic, therefore truth and compliments the human spirit. Freedom and democracy and that has trumped dictatorships everytime.

1. I don't think you mean where
2. The Russian Revolution is alive (more or less) if you mean governmental systems. It's the economic system that's different.
3. I'm not sure what you meant by "national socialist" revolution
4. The Maoist government is still there in governmental terms. (Not economic, but definitely governmental)

Do people in China or Russia vote freely? Definitely not.
5. The English Civil War was not about freedom. Oliver Cromwell was one of the most autocratic rulers in all English history. If you mean the Glorious Revolution, that was simply the replacement of one inbred king with another. I think you mean the English Bill of Rights.

 

[Earthling]

So, Marx was right about one thing and wrong about 10 (including the crux of his ideology). Are we supposed to be impressed?

Just food for thought, Marx was also on the right side about the Pro-Slavery Rebellion. You gotta look at the times.

 

[innonimatu]

Marx was always on the right side.

No, I meant the left!

Actually, it may be just an excuse for a bump.

 

[Arwon]

Where is the Russian revolution? The "national socialist" revolution? The Chinese revolution? These ideas and systems of government are dead because it is incompatiable with human nature. The only true revolution that has continued to this day is the American revolution(or English civil war). Why is this? Because it is based on logic, therefore truth and compliments the human spirit. Freedom and democracy and that has trumped dictatorships everytime.

French, Mexican, Irish, Young Turks, Velvet, Carnation...