CFC Off Topic Turned Me Into a Fascist

[jessiecat]

With great sorrow I notice that you disregard the works of our dear Leonid Ilyich Brezhnev, a great theoretician of Marxism-Leninism.

How could I forget dear old Leonid (may he rest in peace)?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Then you should explicitly say you speak about "a socialist idea" or "a socialist theory".

Seeing as socialism has never existed, I see no reason to differentiate.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Yes, there are a lot of poor whites. But many more of the poor whites are rural. Where there is less concentration of people, there is typically less crime.

Black people commit more crime. Black people live more in cities. Cities have more crime. Your point?

Blacks face inferior education. [...] Music, sports, and crime are the best chances to get out of poverty for poor blacks. Education and hard work are not (at least in the perception of many of them).

First, this is something of a chicken-and-egg problem, second, this is an example of what I mean when I say that black culture is responsible along with poverty, oppression, hopelessness, discrimination, and other manifestations of insufficient amounts of white guilt.

Discrimination in employment and housing. A government that uses very thinly veiled racism to win elections and neglect of them, when not open hostility while in office.

Would this discrimination, racism and hostility take the form of noticing that black people are more criminal, perhaps?
The US already has the utterly pathetic "disparate impact" doctrine which spews out a huge number of false positives (from my POV, although I suppose you might be defining "discrimination" in terms of disparate impact) when looking for discrimination in employment, and has had it since 1971. What more do you want, enforced equality of outcome?

A black is more likely to be falsely convicted of a crime. And more likely to be arrested for no reason other than that they are black. If convicted of an equal crime as a white, is more likely to get a more severe punishment.

With black people having worse education, a black is more likely to screw up their own defense. A black is justifiably more likely to be arrested because a black is more likely to be a criminal. http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/face_facts_on_frisks_EB3eFdXwY0uojyH5PeJHhI And they don't get more severe punishments. http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=33432

Simply put, black offenders do not receive stiffer penalties than white offenders for equivalent crimes—not today, and not at any time in recent decades. The most exhaustive, best designed study of this matter—a three-year analysis of more than 11,000 convicted criminals in California—found that the severity of offenders’ sentences depended heavily on such factors as prior criminal records, the seriousness of the crimes, and whether guns were used in the commission of those crimes. Race was found to have no effect whatsoever. In fact the researcher, Joan Petersilia, was forced to admit that these results contradicted conclusions she had drawn from an earlier study—in which she had not taken prior convictions and the use of firearms into account.[1]
[...]
[1] David Tuller, “Prison Term Study Finds No Race Link,” San Francisco Chronicle (February 16, 1990), p. 2.

In short, a poor black person simply has less reason to have any respect for society or laws or other people. The life experiences of poor whites and poor blacks in the US are in no way comparable.

I can see at least two interpretations of this. One is an interpretation regarding the moral should-ness of respecting the law relative to social class and race, which is racist twaddle. The other is a purely causal interpretation, which isn't racist, but is still twaddle for the following reasons: A poor black person has more reason to have respect for the law because a poor black person is most a member of a usually visibly-distinguishable class with a higher crime rate, and so the police are more likely to check his/her criminal record or outstanding warrants or whatever, so he/she has a greater incentive to stay "clean". As for society and other people, I refer you to a (Polish) acquaintance of mine talking about another society of people who felt they were oppressed and poor:

(8:44:06 PM) AnnoDomini: In Communist Poland, people were poor by default. The government was oppressive. There was nothing in shops except methanol and toilet paper.
(8:44:29 PM) AnnoDomini: And yet, many now lament the kind of societal ties people had under those conditions.
(8:50:04 PM) AnnoDomini: Poverty brings people together, for they have little choice but to rely on others to survive with limited resources.

http://www.abanet.org/crimjust/spring2003/death_penalty.html

http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/rd_stateratesofincbyraceandethnicity.pdf

I agree with the suggestion in the second one to get more competent defenders for everyone. Then I counter:

Although blacks are arrested disproportionately for most types of violent crimes, disagreement persists as to the extent to which official arrest data are indicative of differential offending behavior or selection bias on the part of law enforcement personnel Using data from the National Incident-Based Reporting System (NIBRS), we assess the effect of an offender's race on the probability of arrest for 335,619 incidents of forcible rape, robbery, and assault in 17 states during 1999. The baseline model for these comparisons is the equiprobability hypothesis that relative to violation frequency as reported by crime victims, the likelihood of arrest for white and black offenders is roughly equal. Multivariate logistic regression results show that the odds of arrest for white offenders is approximately 22% higher for robbery, 13% higher for aggravated assault, and 9% higher for simple assault than they are for black offenders. An offender's race plays no noteworthy role in the likelihood of arrest for the crime of forcible rape. These findings suggest that the disproportionately high arrest rate for black citizens is most likely attributable to differential involvement in reported crime rather than to racially biased law enforcement practices

(Race and the Probability of Arrest, D'Alessio, Stewart J., and Stolzenberg, Lisa. Social Forces; Jun 2003, Vol. 81 Issue 4, p1381-1397).

Most contemporary sociological theories of crime predict that blacks will be overrepresented among arrestees in common law personal crimes. These theories differ, however, in the extent to which this overrepresentation is attributed to disproportionate involvement in criminal offenses vs. criminal justice system selection biases. Studies that have relied upon official data have generally supported the differential involvement hypothesis, whereas studies relying on self- report techniques generally have supported the differential selection hypothesis. National victimization survey data on victims' reports of racialcharacteristics of offenders are introduced as a third measurement technique in order to shed additional light on this controversy. These data for rape, robbery, and assault, are generally consistent with official data on arrestees and support the differential involvement hypothesis. Some evidence of differential selection for criminal justice processing is found; however, most ofthe racial disprportionality in arrest data is shown by victimization survey data to be attributable to the substantially greater involvement of blacks in the common law personal crimes of rape, robbery, and assault. These results suggest that traditional admonitions against using arrest data as an index of involvement in these crimes may be overly cautious. In fact, the results imply that more caution should attend the use of self-report data in this vein and that more attention should be given to sampling and instrument concerns in self-report techniques. As currently used, the method may not be adequate for assessing the correlates of serious illegal conduct. The results also suggest that research emphasis be placed on those theories, such as the subcultural and differential opportunity perspectives, which attempt to explain differential racial involvement in these common law personal crimes.

(RACE AND INVOLVEMENT IN COMMON LAW PERSONAL CRIMES, MICHAEL J. HINDELANG, American Sociological Review 1978, Vol. 43 February: 93-109.)

(bold mine since this is fast becoming a wall of text)

According to conventional wisdom, the only reason why blacks have higher rates of crime is because many are from the lower class. (Many people where I work assume that criminal justice system bias produces the disparity. The self-report data presented here show these guys are full of it.) The social status of black and white students at the same college is similar, but black criminality is half a standard deviation higher.

http://inductivist.blogspot.com/2009/02/race-crime-and-getting-high.html

Also the full version of http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=33432 which I linked to above which has a number of other points.

 

[Merkinball]

Cutlass, I have a few questions for you.

How come Djibouti doesn't look like the south side of Chicago? Why has there only been a couple murders that have occurred in Djibouti over the last decade or so? It's a city of a half million utterly impoverished people living on top of one another, with a scant handful of absurdly wealthy white people. There's really almost no crime to speak of. Minor pick-pocketing in the tourist areas. One area where you might get held up with a knife. But there are basically no murders, no violence, no gangs, no hardcore drugs (just khat). The only people that do hardcore drugs are the westerners. The people in the slums aren't sheltered. Many can walk a few blocks to the coast and see the villas. The people in Balbala (the largest slum) can see the 5 Star Kempinksi across the way. All you ever see in the slums is utmost cooperation and people taking care of each other. They are in a much more hopeless situation. They are in actual poverty. They have way less access to education and work. Unemployment is above 50%. They were treated way worse than our blacks have been by white people. They control way less wealth than the Arabs and French do. So why aren't they all killing each other? Why is it considered one of the most peaceful and crime free cities on the face of the earth?

 

[Cutlass]

Merk, why do you think comparing apples and bowling pins is a fair comparison.

 

[Merkinball]

Merk, why do you think comparing apples and bowling pins is a fair comparison.

Good answer. Good -- Answer. It's probably because if you made an honest explanation you'd be proving Erik's point.

 

[Cutlass]

I stopped reading Eric's posts when he started trolling me. So I neither know, nor give a damn, what he said.

 

[Merkinball]

I stopped reading Eric's posts when he started trolling me. So I neither know, nor give a damn, what he said.

Oh, I guess I'm just confused a bit. Because I read a few pages back and saw you guys going back and forth and back and forth and whatnot. So I thought that you were interested in having a substantive discussion about cultures, race, poverty, discrimination, racist legal policies, and things like that. But I guess I was wrong because you ignored Erik and whatnot. I guess I don't understand why you wasted so much time bringing up so many facts to rebut an argument that you were ignoring.

 

[aelf]

I don't take notice of so called "social sciences" and nonsense like that. It is Cultural Marxist manifestation within the education system - its more political they just want to try and fit the world into their worldview.

Do you even know what the heck you are talking about?

 

[Zardnaar]

Cutlass, I have a few questions for you.

How come Djibouti doesn't look like the south side of Chicago? Why has there only been a couple murders that have occurred in Djibouti over the last decade or so? It's a city of a half million utterly impoverished people living on top of one another, with a scant handful of absurdly wealthy white people. There's really almost no crime to speak of. Minor pick-pocketing in the tourist areas. One area where you might get held up with a knife. But there are basically no murders, no violence, no gangs, no hardcore drugs (just khat). The only people that do hardcore drugs are the westerners. The people in the slums aren't sheltered. Many can walk a few blocks to the coast and see the villas. The people in Balbala (the largest slum) can see the 5 Star Kempinksi across the way. All you ever see in the slums is utmost cooperation and people taking care of each other. They are in a much more hopeless situation. They are in actual poverty. They have way less access to education and work. Unemployment is above 50%. They were treated way worse than our blacks have been by white people. They control way less wealth than the Arabs and French do. So why aren't they all killing each other? Why is it considered one of the most peaceful and crime free cities on the face of the earth?

Different culture with a severe lack of western type morals so caught criminals can't lawyer up?

 

[Merkinball]

What are western type morals?

 

[Earthling]

It's okay Cutlass, Erik is posting against the vast evidence many other posters have accumulated on CFC that all cops and police divisions across the US are systematically racist and the slightest statistical discrepancy proves it, and far more recent thatn 1990 or 1978 studies at that.

Edit: Also, not trying to reproduce it here, but isn't "tw----" a quite offensive curse word in Britain - I only learned about it when in fact I saw some censoring on CFC, maybe not censored anymore?

 

[Zardnaar]

Not Sharia law although I'm not to sure on Djibouti legal code.

 

[ArneHD]

Not Sharia law although I'm not to sure on Djibouti legal code.

Probably the civil law or some derivation there of. Djibouti was a French colony after all, and probably inherited the legal code from them.

 

[Merkinball]

Not Sharia law although I'm not to sure on Djibouti legal code.

Well, I don't really understand what this would have to do with crime...

 

[Earthling]

You're not reading his posts all too well, are you - he's relating his views on "Western morals" (you yourself asked him) to the legal code/history of laws in a society.

 

[Merkinball]

You're not reading his posts all too well, are you - he's relating his views on "Western morals" (you yourself asked him) to the legal code/history of laws in a society.

Yeah, I know. Thanks buddy. What does that have to do with what I said? What does Sharia'a Law have to do with people committing crimes against other people? The answer? Nothing. What does the ability to "lawyer up" have to do with crime? The answer? Nothing. You wanna talk about western morals versus other morals that's fine. But you must first define and differentiate between them. Our western system of law has nothing to do with our abhorrent crime rates.

 

[holy king]

Do you even know what the heck you are talking about?

he's a ukip voter.

 

[Earthling]

See, making obvious blanket statements directed at nothing special, and then following up with an extremely unproven and controversial statement you hope someone will gloss over, doesn't mean it will always be missed and not called out.

Our western system of law has nothing to do with our abhorrent crime rates.

Only the fact that hundreds of years and millions of people have debated things like the effect of criminal punishment vs. rehabilitation or deterrence, etc... I'd say that having "western legal systems" as a whole, as opposed to religious law or harsh "eye for an eye" police state types of justice, have a TREMENDOUS impact on crime from the types of crime committed to the rates of many.

 

[Zardnaar]

OK Islamic countries tend to have very low criminal rates compared to the west, probably do to cultural reasons and Islamic law m'kay.