CG5 - The Warmonger's Revenge, Ottomans, Emperor

[cromagnon]

Even with industrious workers, the connecting road will take a while to build, and will be a tenuous one, easily cut by the Japanese. Plus, we'll have to put our city just NW of the iron, on the hill. Not the best spot, but with some expansion, should grow.

I wonder why Nagoya was placed there? It doesn't seem like a particularly good spot, unless some oil springs up in the future...

I say keep cranking out settlers in Istanbul (thanks for irrigating), use Edrine for spears, and get a temple in Iznik so it can expand onto the wheat and cattle. Bursa may be able to eke out a settler as well.

 

[swiftsure]

Will get it tonight, on emporer money is definately the way to go. you cant keep up with the ai on tech research so u have to by the techs off them.

 

[Sirp]

You guys seem to be doing a little better this time around, so far at least.

swiftsure: You definitely can keep up with the AIs in research on emperor level, and since the Ottomans are Scientific, that's precisely what you should try to do! Even on Deity you can do it these days, well, sort of

If you go for libraries, you can research the technologies the AI delays, then trade them with them, and hopefully make some good cash out of it too.

Also uhmm...is that a worker I see mining the cattle near Bursa? That's a bonus food tile, with a city on fresh water! You want the city to grow, and grow fast! Build a granary in that city and it'll be a super-city in no time, able to produce settlers, workers, or just grow damn big and start churning out units.

Sorry for butting in with the unsolicited advice again, especially in a still-ongoing game; feel free to tell me to buzz off any time

-Sirp.

 

[Aggie]

Originally posted by Sirp
Sorry for butting in with the unsolicited advice again, especially in a still-ongoing game; feel free to tell me to buzz off any time

-Sirp.

Apology accepted. And please keep doing it Thanks

 

[widdowmaker]

Yes i know that. But i did the cheiftian games for 2 resons.
1) To learn the controls.
2)To have a sim game ot buidl in when i dont got nothing better to do. And to see a nuke go off for the first time.

Also i never finished one because they were so hoplessley easy. I bumped it up to warlord yeterday and thats easy. Next is regent then monarch. I am pretty sure i can handle this. All i ask is a chance. If you dotn want me on then drop me but you wont know if i am good enough to have unless i get at least one turn for you to see. That and the fact there is almsot no one who does anythign under emporor for me to try to join.

 

[jack merchant]

@ Sirp:

It's great to have your input here, and I hope you'll continue to provide us with advice. I sent the worker at Bursa to mine the cattle as it's a food-rich but shield-poor city and was concerned it wouldn't start producing anything anytime soon. Also, I don't really like the whip, which would probably be the best way to get its granary going. My teammates are free to veto, of course
Having followed all those RBD and RBE games, my very first instinct is normally to irrigate cattle, too.

 

[cromagnon]

Widdowmaker,

I beg of you, I implore you, to please play a game on emperor before you ask to play one in a succession game. I'm sure you are a good player, or will become one, but no one has any way of knowing that at the moment. There simply is not enough evidence to make any judgement on your playing skills.

Once you have played a few games on your own, then ask to join a SG, or start one yourself, at the difficulty level of your choosing. While you may feel confident in your skills, it should be pretty obvious that others on the forum are not convinced of them.

I'm putting this on the forum, because you apparently do not check your Private Messages.

 

[Aggie]

Originally posted by cromagnon
I'm putting this on the forum, because you apparently do not check your Private Messages.

That's exactly what I did yesterday....

 

[Arathorn]

Cgannon, I really think you need to work on your opening turns a bit more. After 40 turns, your capital was size 3 and had produced very little -- 3 units?

Compare to RBP5, where, in a very similar starting situation, after 40 turns, we had a second city, 2 warriors exploring, and our capital was size 7, ready to produce a second settler the next turn.

The difference in power between these two openings is immense. RBP5 was more than twice as powerful after 40 turns than CG5. That kind of deficit takes a lot of work to recover from.

<soapbox>
I think far too many people blow through the early turns, because there's little to do, so they don't pay proper attention. This gets them into bigger holes than they should be in, so their games are inordinately difficult.

Yes, I stop micromanaging at some point. I think almost everyone does (unless it's an OCC or a 5CC or something). At a certain point (which varies for everyone), the time invested to do that doesn't become worth it -- at least not for every city. MMing a wonder-building city or your best city or two often continues....

But, at the bery beginning, when you only have one city? It *is* an OCC at that point, and you should watch it like a hawk.... It's not that hard to keep track of one city and I simply do not understand how/why people have such trouble with it.

</soapbox>

The soapbox was a general rant, not aimed directly at you, cgannon, but in your general direction, along with a lot of other people. Improving your opening 40 turns could literally move you up an entire difficulty level. It's that important.

Arathorn

PS I like your stance as regards widowmaker.....

 

[cromagnon]

Arathorn: I was about to interject that "well, we had Barbarian trouble at the beginning," but I now noticed that you did in RBP5 as well. So I stand corrected.

I agree with you that micromanaging your one or two cities is very important, and I have begun to make a concious effort to do so. Before ending any turn, I do a quick check in every city to make sure it's getting the most food, shields, and commerce it can, but more importantly, to watch for civil disorder.

My problem is that I believe that you guys make micromanaging decisions on a level much higher than mine - making sure the granary is built at the right time in the food cycle, for example. Or how to make the settler factor oscillate between size 6 and 4. I have a foggy notion of how to do this correctly, but it's not nearly concrete enough for me.

Thanks for your input, and I look forward to hearing from you again.

 

[LKendter]

The early game is when I get the most fanatical on mm. Late game I get to the point that in my totally corrupt cities I will tell the governor to emphasis food / happy people.

I got a top ten in the qsc for GOTM#16. Why did I get that high? I researched pottery and built a granary quickly. Several exploring warriors for quick contact, and the big item was clearing the game for city growth. When I read a lot of the post I was in the minority who cleared the game square to get faster food. I had Moscow to the point of settler in 5, and worker in 2 (with city growing in 2). I had constantly changed the luxury tax, but it clearly paid on base on where I scored.

 

[cgannon64]

Thanks for the comments on the opening guys. The problem is that that part of the game is just hard to learn. Its very hard to see what people do from SGs, and also hard to see what they do from saves.

I think my opening has two main problems - happiness. Being my first game on Emperor level, I've forgetten about how important it is to use the slider early. My second mistake was not hooking up the dyes fast enough.

Do you guys know where I could work on my opening? Do they give detailed reports in the QSC, or just the save, because I think a report from some of the top winners would really help me...

Anyway, you're up swiftsure.

BTW, Its really amazing how fast a high-profile loss will point out the faults in your game. At first my pride was kind of hurt, especially when all the tips started coming in, but know its really helpful...

EDIT: Would any of you guys be interested in running an Emperor training game? I know a training game that high up sounds a little absurd, but I think that there are a bunch of SGers here who CAN win on that level, but don't win enough because of faults in their game like you guys pointed out.

I think what would really help would be a "Batter's Cage" type game where anyone who wants plays a set of turns, and then the good player reviews our turns. It would be time consuming, but I think it would really help me game.

 

[swiftsure]

Quick look pre turn and everything seems in order, only thing i change are the spears to warriors in iznik and bursa. i assume that they are there as second mp and warriors will do for that as well as being upgradable.

1325bc- scouting and working
1300bc-lux to 10% to stop istanbul rioting,iznik builds warrior which is sent to istanbul as second mp and starts another. bursa builds warrior and starts worker
1275bc- trade 113gp and w/m to korea for horseback riding and t/m
1250bc-istanbul builds settler and starts another,lux back to 0%. edrine builds spear and starts another.
1225bc- iznik builds warrior. at this point i decide to try for some quick territory expansion so it starts a settler
1200bc-scouting and working
1175bc-bursa builds warrior and starts settler. kyoto completes the oracle.
1150bc-edrine completes spear and starts granary,uskadur founded and starts warrior.
1125bc-scouting and working
1100bc-istanbul builds settler and starts another. trade 80gp and 7gpt to greece for maths and then trade maths to korea for philosophy,world map and 2gp
1075bc-scouting and working
1050bc-iznik builds settler and starts spear
1025bc-usukadur builds warrior and starts worker
1000bc-scouting and working
975bc- barb camp dispersed
950bc-bursa builds settler starts spear,istanbul builds settler starts spear
925bc-
900bc-edrine builds granary starts settler,usukadur builds worker starts temple,izmit built starts spear,adyin built starts spear.
875bc- antayla built starts spear
850bc- iznik builds spear starts temple,bursa builds warrior starts settler. trondheim builds collosus.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CG5-850BC.SAV

Took a few chances by sending out some escorted settlers but we seem ok at the moment.

we have 8 cities compared to japan 9,korea 8, greece 7 and aztecs 5.

we are behind in tech to everyone by map making and code of laws but we can buy either of them but they are expensive.

we have a settler ready to settle where i would normally settle but it might be worthwhile heading north to the horsies.

 

[cgannon64]

VERY nice work there swiftsure. You really pumped out those settlers, lets just hope that our little psedo-farmer's gambit works well. I think once we get a few more settlers out, it should be lots of warrior production and preparing funds for the upgrade.

Just wondering what you guys think...do you think 10-15 swords would be enough to take over Japan? Or would that be too little?

Aggie -> Up Now
Me -> On Deck
Cromagnon
Jack
Swiftsure

 

[cromagnon]

I'd be surprised if 15 swords can take out Japan's 9+ cities. I'm pretty sure they haven't been neglecting their military (the AI rarely does). However, the AI knows when we are, and will probably start demanding tribute, especially if we have a lot of gold lying around. I know it's not proven or even generally accepted, and maybe some of the more experienced players can give some input, but I think they tend to knock you around more if you have money. Whether or not they act on your refusal depends on how strong your military is.

 

[jack merchant]

4 new cities, woohoo ! I'd send the current settler to claim the horse up north and fill in the space between later. By the time we're ready to take it to the Aztecs and the Greeks, there will be too many knights or cav around to not have our own supply of horses. But it's all up to Aggie, of course
We probably need at least 15 swords for Japan, but we must definitely strike before pikes or, God forbid, Samurai (who don't require horses).

Edit: I was going to say we don't need to take all of Japan in one go, but under the variant rules, we of course do The alternative is simply to lie low, build up our empire and wait for sipahi.

 

[LKendter]

One of the biggest this that will cause the AI to make demands - EMPTY CITIES. The latest LK world map game proved it again. A bunch of our cities were empty. Alliances and trade embargoes against us were coming like crazy. Since all our cities got defenders again - almost nothing has happened to us.

In GOTM#16 my problems with AI declaring war, and other issues all started late game. What happened then? I stripped defenders from my cities to keep the war effort going.

It won't stop the demands, but it will slow them down.

 

[widdowmaker]

Fine. i will go join a low dif SG. OH! WAIT! There are none. Guess i am royaly screwed as i cant JOIN a low level SG to prove my skills an dhte high level ones wont take me cause i havent proven yet. Isint the point of a game ot be fun win or lose?ALL i aksed for was a CHANCE... Oh well there will be other games other than civ 3. (the AI really sucks in several areas. liek why do they kepe the military OUTSIDE their cities?)

 

[Sirp]

cgannon64: Happiness at the start of a game is really no big deal at all. It's simple. As soon as people get unhappy and are about to go into civil disorder (but not after they've already done it!), just increase the luxury slider. That's all there is to it. What could be simpler?

Not hooking up luxuries early is *not* a mistake. The AI actually has it right this time. You know how it values luxuries by how many cities you have? Well that's actually a pretty good idea. When you have one city, luxuries aren't worth very much! Only 1 gold per turn or so. Sure, you want to hook them up at some point, but it's not a high priority task. Hooking them up is about as valuable as having a road on a tile that a citizen is working on.

jack merchant: if a city is food rich and shield poor it will umm...grow very big fast, and then it will be food rich and shield rich. Getting it to produce 1 more spt right now is a fairly short-term approach, and is probably costing you about 5 spt in 30 turns. Growth is far far more important than shields early on. Don't trade away your inheritance for a couple of shields.

-Sirp.

 

[cromagnon]

Widdowmaker, just because there isn't a lower level SG now, doesn't mean there won't be one soon. All the more true if you start one on your own. I'm very sure people will join. Just look at how quickly Sirp's Monarch level Trainer filled up!

BTW, many SG's ask you to prove your ability to play Emperor or Diety. Most (including us) do not. You don't need a SG to prove how well you play. And yes, the point is to have fun - I certainly did in CG4, even though the outcome wasn't great. However, some people would like to have players of approximately equal ability on their team.

Again, you don't have to prove anything to anyone, unless they specifically ask for it. You were honest about your experience, in your first post. You could have lied and said "I've beat Diety." but we all appreciate your honesty. I'm sure higher level players would be happy to have you in their future games if you come back and tell us "I've beaten Monarch, and I feel ready to try Emperor."

Again, if you don't like what you see on the menu, make your own dish!