Change America

[CYZ]

I think America's ability is very suiting for the early USA, perhaps not so much for the modern country but CIV focusses on the earlier eras of any civ that's still around in our modern world.

Anyway, America's ability is perhaps not as powerfull as others on a normal start, but it is certainly the most powerfull on a later era start. It's on an advanced start that both early scouting and purchasing land is much much more important. Later starts also makes their UU's more usefull, as some UU's of other civs will be skipped totally.

To me it seems their ability is tinkered specificly for an advanced start (try starting in rennaisance or industrial, you'll see). This is actually very realistic as the USA had a pretty late start in reality as well

 

[turtlefang]

Nutshell == it was due to meritocracy, mercantile philosophy, low government interference, entrepreneurial ethic and industriousness - not geographical advantages. (A bunch of really good social policies, basically.)

This one not even close to reality.

The US had a major advantage over other powers during the 1800s and especially during the early 1900s due to its geographic isolation and natural resources.

Without a major power near it, the US managed to avoid any major war on its own turf except the Civil War. Unlike Europe, China, or the USSR. This provided a huge competitive advantage AND allowed the US to maintain a very small military force for most of existence - again, unlike the European or Russian rulers. Which mean safety and lower risk of investing.

In the 1600 and 1700s (except for FL/CA which the Spanish paid for), the Dutch and English paid for the Colonies industrial expansion. Now, England also tried to limited this as part of their on going colonial mercantile policy, but it only partially worked.

During the 1800s, the US industrial system, with the exception of the Civil War, was financed with English, French and German capital. This included the the Southern Plantation system, railroads, factories and westward expansion after the Civil War. All of this is extremely well documented for anyone who wants to look beyond the surface - the companies, ownership, bonds, capital payments, etc... Its all there.

The entire cattle baron myth always gives me a good laugh - Charlie Goodnight (usually recognized as the most successful cattle baron) and company literally owned the company store, but, in this case, John Adair's (an Irish nobleman) and partners owned Goodnight's soul (at least up until 1919).

Why? It was literally the next great frontier and provide huge returns to the elite of Europe. Starting in 1890s but especially just before and after WWII, most of these assets were literally sold at pennies on the dollar to pay for the war by Europeans. Leaving the US with a very firm industrial footing that we didn't fund. (Nothing like taking over cheap assets to build a country on).

Its also one of the reasons that we had such a problem recovering during and after the Great Depression. Two things happened in the Roaring 20s - capital came into the US as the Europeans sold off assets at pennies on the dollar, and a speculative bubble started.

The US had greater problems coping with the Great Depression that Europe did because we simply had not built the necessary financial infrastructures up to cope that type of massive capital inflow OR the massive bubble. (Now, a lot of other things happened too but the speculation was driven by the capital inflow and we didn't have financial infrastructures to react). And it took WWII to get the US finally out of the Depression.

After WWII, you had Europe, China (Asia) and most of Africa literally living in the stone age and required to be rebuilt. Where we provided the goods. And they rebuilt their industries.

So what really happened was protectionism by the US government through the use of tariffs, heavily restricted imports (don't believe me? check the laws), selected government investment (RR, industry, free gazing for the cattle barons), a very heavy mercantilism policy to attract and accumulate capital, and then purchasing the capital investments at pennies on the dollar when the owners had a crisis at home.

After WWII, the US moved to a free market system as we know it, including trying to eliminate tariffs, open trade, etc.... But prior to that, it wasn't a true capitalist system - it was much much closer to the mercantilism that England practiced.

And want to guess what country doing the same thing now to us that we did to Europe? China. Same strategy and approach.

 

[Keejus]

I'm not sure what exactly is so important about "winning" WWII, especially considering the Allies only fought to stop an aggressor. The greatest contribution to halting the Axis was made by the Soviets by a pretty wide margin, though.

All I got from Wiki'ing "American System" is that it was a semi-successful platform supported by the Whig party in the early 1800s and involved heavy tarriffs/protectionism. It only lasted a couple decades and much of the country was not on board (namely the entire south and west). Nowhere in the article was there any mention of it being so successsful the entire world adopted it. Economies have always had protectionist elements, America was surely not the first.

I'm guessing he means the American System of Manufacturing (interchangable parts, basically), which is a worldwide thing. I don't know what exactly it has to do with being progressive, though?

Yes, modern day America is a production powerhouse, and their UA does not reflect this. Modern Denmark is a scientific, progressive nation, yet their UA is about war and pillaging. Modern Japan is more technologically advanced, but there isn't a hint of science in their UA. The Aztecs had a pretty sturdy road network, but all they get is food from rivers and social progress from killing people.

Unless you want UAs to encompass every aspect of a civilization, or you think Manifest Destiny is a poor representation of the US (which is a valid opinion, though not one I share. The availability of good land to settle is one of the most unique aspects of the nation), I don't really see why a change would be necessary.

 

[Lord Chambers]

The only things America should be able to pop from Ancient Ruins are Immigrants and Maps; because some people out there don't have maps. Thank you.

 

[seasnake]

The Louisiana Purchase, Alaska, Gadsden Purchase (Arizona and New Mexico, to build railroads), The Virgin Islands ... buying land has happened often enough that it's both a historically relevant AND useful UA. Wish we could say the same of all UAs.

 

[chazzycat]

Turtlefang - thanks for expanding & putting in better words what I was trying to get at.

Keejus - I saw that article as well but Randall was talking about economic policy, so I went with that one. Replaceable parts was a revolution in industry that we helped pioneer, but it's not our defining characteristic by any means. In game, I would equate this with the US having researched the tech "replaceable parts" first.

 

[cairnsy44]

The Soviets won WWII.

easy to say, as the Soviets had a one front war, unlike the US, who had 2.

on topic, No need to change the Americans UA. If you want them to be a production powerhouse, you build them to be such.

 

[Lord Chambers]

easy to say, as the Soviets had a one front war, unlike the US, who had 2.

Exactly what aspect of having one front makes it easy to say that country won a war?

 

[mujrim]

easy to say, as the Soviets had a one front war, unlike the US, who had 2.

on topic, No need to change the Americans UA. If you want them to be a production powerhouse, you build them to be such.

The Soviets came out of the war with a massive empire, and attained super power status.

 

[fmlizard2]

New American UA - Military Adventurism

- 25% when in war lasting more than 20 turns on another continent.

Please...stop all the wars. We can't afford them.

 

[The_J]

Moderator Action: Back to gameplay aspects please.

 

[Jimbo30]

easy to say, as the Soviets had a one front war, unlike the US, who had 2.

Yeah just so happens they were fighting the brunt of the real enemy.

 

[Blue Oyster]

The Soviets won WWII.

The Soviets didn't defeat Japan.


-------------

I just wanted to recommend a couple of recently published books:

The Storm of War: A New History of the Second World War, by Andrew Roberts;

Manstein: Hitler's Greatest General, by Mungo Melvin.

Lessons from martial history, such as represented in these works, inform my strategy and tactics used in CiV GAMEPLAY. I like to find similarities between an in-game problem and a historical incident, and figure out how to apply the solution used in the latter (or to avoid a failed strategy/tactic) to the GAMEPLAY situation at hand.

 

[Roxlimn]

Er, doesn't anyone else use B17s? Those things are awesome on awesome. Why? Because they can come out with LOGISTICS fresh out the airport. No other unit comes out with double attack out the gate other than the Cho Ko Nu, and they're weaker than normal Crossbowmen. The B17 doesn't only come out fierce, it's also stronger than normal bombers to boot!

And if you don't like Logistics? Hey, take the equally awesome Air Repair. Or own enemy cities with City Attack 3! The B17 is so strong, I beeline it. Doesn't hurt that the American Paratroopers get Sentry to help sight for the B17s

The Minuteman is tops, too, assuming you didn't wage early war and aren't keeping a stable of hyper-promoted units. Even then, their go-anywhere movement combined with native Drill makes them tough hombres out the gate - clearly superior to Longswords, and worth both the tech and the hammers.

Shock 2 Drill Minutemen can maneuver and keep to Rough Terrain for maneuvering in enemy land, or around enemy troops, and still dish out the hurt on Open Terrain.

Finally, Manifest Destiny, now, is godsend in the early game for city placement. A player sometimes has to compromise between early availability of resources and defensive or clump concerns. An American don't care. He'll just buy that land from under your nose. An American can use his first ring to get hard to claim land like hills for production, and still get immediate access to luxuries in the second ring for a nominal amount.

 

[qemist]

The USA out-produced the rest of the world, put together, by the end of WWII. It surpassed Britain in total industrial output before 1900, and no other 20th century nation compared in either per-capita or gross productivity. Do a search on my name and the topic in this forum, I don't feel like digging up and re-posting the documentation.

So what was your precious America's production in the Ancient era? zero, eh. The Classical? zero again. The mediaeval? Zero. I agree, let's have realism and give America zero production until the Industrial period.

 

[turtlefang]

The biggest problem with the B17 and minutemen is that they're so late in the game that thier impact is marginal. The B17 is a great unit. But just too late.

By the time air power appears, at least in my games, it over. And while I like the minutemen, you can get nearly the same time much much earlier by going with the Aztecs and upgrading Jaguars - and have that ability for S, LS, Rifles .....

So the UU for the Americans are simply a non-issue for me. Too late to really impact the game.

The +1 LOS is unvalued most of the time. Its actually a very good trait to have and adds a lot to the all the units. You really don't realize how much until you play the Americans and then switch and miss it.

The tile purchasing another one that I use a lot simply because I use it to "lock out" enemy expansion. So both of these work well.

 

[Arksa]

I found America to be fairly powerful when I prepared for the B17 bombers by making military academy in 2-3 cities, then mass produce 8 of them, upgrade them to +55% city attack and +1 attack per turn, it didn't take long to win domination.

 

[insaneweasel]

Nutshell == it was due to meritocracy, mercantile philosophy, low government interference, entrepreneurial ethic and industriousness - not geographical advantages. (A bunch of really good social policies, basically.)

This one not even close to reality.

The US had a major advantage over other powers during the 1800s and especially during the early 1900s due to its geographic isolation and natural resources.

Without a major power near it, the US managed to avoid any major war on its own turf except the Civil War.

While this is true, it would be wrong to discount the aforementioned facts about what made America grow and prosper. Other nations like the Portuguese, the Dutch and the Spanish had huge advantages, but squandered them (the Spanish, for instance, wasted most of their American gold on religious wars). The U.S. was also free of the repressive aristocracy system that caused so much strife in the old world.

 

[turtlefang]

While I agree that the aristocracy system caused issues in the old world, its hard to have an aristocracy system when you have free land AND a shortage of labor. The labor just picks up and leaves to the free land - hence the on going westward expansion.

Which is the whole point of the manifest destiny doctrine - and the ease in buying new tiles. As the American player, you have greater flexiblity in which land you work due to 50% cheaper tile purchase. You should be able to maximize your population productivity and which tiles you develop first. Now, if you don't have any money, that's not much of an advantage......

 

[CYZ]

While I agree that the aristocracy system caused issues in the old world, its hard to have an aristocracy system when you have free land AND a shortage of labor. The labor just picks up and leaves to the free land - hence the on going westward expansion.

Which is the whole point of the manifest destiny doctrine - and the ease in buying new tiles. As the American player, you have greater flexiblity in which land you work due to 50% cheaper tile purchase. You should be able to maximize your population productivity and which tiles you develop first. Now, if you don't have any money, that's not much of an advantage......

True, but having money is easy to plan. Having horses (Mongolia) or Ocean (ottomans, britain, polynesia) is harder to plan. What's your point?

I keep saying America is an advanced start civ.