change beastmasters

I think the idea that the shieldwall act as a mobile fortress would probably fit in more in terms of flavour. The functionality of it comes from being able to either increase the defending strength of a stack or getting defense bonii from the members of the stack or maybe even reducing or nullifying collateral damage.

Mobile fortress. Hmmm ... Give the shield wall a cargo spot (arcane units only). That would protect the softest units from collateral damage (actually, I'm not sure if cargo is subject to collateral damage. Is it?)
I don't know how realistic it is for a single unit to protect an entire stack of units. Stacks can get pretty large...I'd say mass protection from collateral damage sounds like the territory of spells...
But back to the shield wall...it should be slow. Maybe give the unit a -1 terrain movement penalty?
 
Mobile fortress. Hmmm ... Give the shield wall a cargo spot (arcane units only). That would protect the softest units from collateral damage (actually, I'm not sure if cargo is subject to collateral damage. Is it?)
I don't know how realistic it is for a single unit to protect an entire stack of units. Stacks can get pretty large...I'd say mass protection from collateral damage sounds like the territory of spells...
But back to the shield wall...it should be slow. Maybe give the unit a -1 terrain movement penalty?

so you want one of the first units to defend as the carrier for your high level mage? I didn't know shadows were that much of a problem...

maybe... a shield wall could defend two tiles simultaneously?... idk...
(a split ability based on strength would be nice, but mess with the national unit limit)
 
Letting them gain abilities from animals could be interesting, too: Join with a panther for stealth, join with a bear for +2 strength, join with a wolf for a forest movement bonus, an elephant for collateral damage, and so on.
I like that idea Very Much! Perhaps Panther for First Strike and Gorilla for Stealth. Spider for Fear and Tiger for +1 STR? Only one joining per Master? Or maybee add an additional joining after a certain experiance level?

A BeastMaster is a master of beasts.
What better way to buff them than with beasts?
 
I like the 'ship-like' promotion thing.

Change the name to 'Legionarie'.
Give it 'Formations' promotion. [the promotion could be gained by other units on certain XP lvl, i.e. combat 5?] Formation promotion would give the unit an option like ships to chose betwen:
- shield wall - +40 vs melle
- testudo - +40% vs archery
- hedgehog - +40% vs mounted
It would require whole movement of a unit to switch to another formation. A great commander[when attached to a unit] could make it cost no movement to switch between.

Also make it not a national unit but combine it to a city size [i.e. you can have as many legionaries/legions as you have cities size 6+] or to a building, as much as you have command posts in your empire.
 
I will try to list changes, that do not require reprogramming and use existing effects and i take the wiki description as inspiration.

Flurries:
"the flurry, an elite squad of archers capable of obliterating an army on the march before it notices that it is under attack."
This means flurries are able to destroy units without them defending in any way.

"making it an excellent way to kill separate units, or clean up a stack after an Archmage has weakened it."
So the flurry is intended to be powerful against weak units.

My suggestion:
str 9
6 first strikes
mv 1 (they are on foot after all and not trained to run, but shoot fast)
blitz (still useful with mobility)
+50% on hills(not certain about this)

reason:
with str 9 and 6 first strikes before drill flurries will massaker T3 and lower units without being damaged, exactly as the story and game intention described in wiki.
T4 and some mounted units are either experienced enough(=high enough str) or fast enough (immunity to first strikes) to live through the initial attacks and will have an easy time to kill the flurry. No infantry unit should go against fast firing longbowman on a hill.

This is not unbalancing, due to the drastic str reduction. 1 fs is about +8% str bonus, so str9+6 fs~ str 13.4, currently flurry is str 14.3. As fs are more useful with equal or lower str, this flurry will be awesome against T3 and lower or damaged T4 and of limited to no use against T4, also easy to counter with immunity to first strike units => not unbalancing.

Beastmaster:
"This is an advanced scouting unit,"
"A Beastmaster combines his own strength with those of the animals that accompany him (and a bizarre crotch biting weasel)."

My suggestion:
str 12
mv 2
(ususal stuff for hunter/ranger)
+75% vs animals
vision 1
birds in cargo gain at beginning of turn for 1 turn vision 1 and mobility 2
spawns wolfes as a wolf pack, lions, tiger, ... as a den, creates baby spiders when killing a living units,... so all animal spawning effects there are.

reason:
As top scout unit and able to influence animals improved scouting(especially using a single bird 3 times a turn) should be avaible to a beastmaster.
His animals assist him in fighting and although not strong he often brings some along and suicide them against enemies. (Which fits the "master of animals" well, he is not loaded with the moral compunctions about animals as druids and others might be).
With time he can also help getting festivals filled, which might goign for him important if he can just create the 1 animal you are missing for the great whatsoever.

shield wall:
"Exceptional at defense, though poor at offense, Shield Walls are intended to accompany weaker troops into the field."
Not much description of idea there. My idea is not historical or realistic, extremely heavy armored meele units with heavy and big shields.

My suggestion:
unable to attack
str 18, can gain bronze,...
immune to first strikes
magic resistant
always hasted or can cast haste on self
no city defense bonus
mv -3(hope civ engine is not kill by this)
sprint
upgrade unit needs mobility 2 for upgrading(can be left away, as players will be clever enough to mind this and AI can be coded to do so)
no auto defense, no ability to intercept shadow/assasin attacks

new but fitting abilities:
if possible resistance to collateral damage
every attacker gets +50% chance to withdraw.


reason:
Realistically such units make no sense, but in fantasy some highly trained elite warrios are able to walk around with big shield and full plate mail. They are so slow, that everybody can run away and offense is pointsless, but they are nearly impossible to kill. The -3 mv, always hasted and sprint ensures, that they can only move every other turn and are weaker when just moved. Archers and melee cannot kill them easily, but mounted units can weaken them slowly by withdrawing often.
Since they are covered so well by shields, mages have a harder time targetting them, therefore magic resistant. They are too slow and see and hear too little to react to shadows and assasins.

edit to add: upps, if i remember correctly spirnt gives haste and fatigue, so it doesn't work as intended. Then always hasted has to be dropped, mv -2 and sprint. Then with adept with haste shield walls can move every turn, without adept they can move every other turn.
 
If a unit has 0 movement or less and you try to move it that will cause civ to hang (infinite loop as it tries to calculate how many turns it will take). Does not apply to DOMAIN_IMMOBILE units. Might be possible to fix by making units with <1 movement unable to move.
 
[NWO]_Valis;5505409 said:
I like the 'ship-like' promotion thing.

Change the name to 'Legionarie'.
Give it 'Formations' promotion. [the promotion could be gained by other units on certain XP lvl, i.e. combat 5?] Formation promotion would give the unit an option like ships to chose betwen:

There already is a promotion named Formation, its the anti-cavalry promotion.
 
I like the idea of attaching the animals to a beastmaster, but maybe not for increase strength. That seems like it might add too much. I think that the beastmaster himself would be doing most of the fighting anyway because he is so much more powerful than the animals. Instead, give him him promotions for attached animals, something like:
Hawk:+1 vision range
Wolf: immune to first strikes (or -1 first strike) because they scout for him
Bear, gorilla: 1 collateral damage each
Panther: +1 first strike in forest or jungle
Spider: ability to cast entangle

It would make the unit much more interesting, as well as useful.
 
I like the idea of joining animals to the Beastmaster, too; makes the unit like a walking menagerie. You'd have to nerf the unit's base strength, though. Give the BM the same base strength as a Ranger...6, iirc. Let the BM gain his strength through unit-specific promotions. Beastmaster promotions, gained once, when an appropriate animal is sacrificed (it's really not killed, just presumed to join the unit), could look like...

Lion's Dominion (+1 Strength, immune to fear)
Tiger's Ferocity (+1 Strength, +25% Strength in Forest/Jungle)
Bear's Might (+2 Strength, +25% Strength in Hills, +1 terrain movement cost)
Panther's Stealth (+1 Strength, invisible in Forest/Jungle)
Gorilla's Cunning (+1 Strength, free Hidden Nationality promotion)
Wolf's Tenacity (+1 Strength, +25% withdrawal chance)
Spider's Venom (+1 Strength, +1 poison)

...this would bring the base strength of the BM to 14 +1 poison. Many good special abilities, too, but I imagine one unit getting all seven would be quite rare by the time BMs come into the game.
 
I would have the Beastmaster at a higher base than 6, cause the chance you are gonna get all 7 animals is pretty rare. Especially with the rarity of Tigers and Gorillas.

Maybe 8 base strength, if the bonuses were to be as you suggest.

If I may, I have some suggestions to change your suggestion however.

Lion's Dominion (immune to fear, +25&#37; Strength, +40% from Lion Pride)
Tiger's Ferocity (+1 Strength, +25% Strength in Forest/Jungle)
Bear's Might (+2 Strength, +25% Strength in Hills, +1 terrain movement cost)
Panther's Stealth (+1 Move, invisible in Forest/Jungle)
Gorilla's Cunning (+1 Strength, free Hidden Nationality promotion)
Wolf's Tenacity (+25% withdrawal chance, +35% from Wolf Pack)
Spider's Venom (+2 poison)

With my changes to your scheme, the base strength should perhaps be 10, with a potential max of 14 +2 poison
 
Starting Strength = 8

Lion's Dominion (immune to fear, +10&#37; Strength, +25% from Lion Pride)
Tiger's Ferocity (+1 Strength, +25% Strength in Forest/Jungle)
Bear's Might (+2 Strength, +25% Strength in Hills, +1 terrain movement cost)
Panther's Stealth (+1 Move, invisible in Forest/Jungle)
Gorilla's Cunning (+1 Strength, free Hidden Nationality promotion)
Wolf's Tenacity (immune to first strikes, +10% withdrawal chance, +25% from Wolf Pack)
Spider's Venom (+2 poison)

Here, with a lion's pride, a tiger, a bear and a gorilla the base str would be 12 + 25% (15), 12 +75% (21) in hills, 12 +100% (24) in forest, and 12 +150% (30) in forested hills. This is before experience-based promotions. I wonder if this is a bit overpowered.
 
That's a great idea to boost beastmasters by joining animals to them! I'd suggest a different angle, though... It'd be fun if you could only join 1 animal and up the boni received from each animal. That way you could have customised beastmasters running around with unique abilities. Also, as of v0.22, if you manage to get the rarer animals you'll probably want to keep them for the Grand Menagerie, so I don't like the idea of a beastmaster being balanced around the expectation that all animal types will be joined to it.

I'd suggest:
* Remove nature mana affinity from beastmaster
* Add +2 base strength to all animals in list below
* Change the gorilla to give +1 first strike instead of hidden nationality (else your allies would be trying to kill your precious T4 units)

Lion's Dominion (immune to fear, +25% Strength, +40% from Lion Pride)
Tiger's Ferocity (+1 Strength, +25% Strength in Forest/Jungle)
Bear's Might (+2 Strength, +25% Strength in Hills, +1 terrain movement cost)
Panther's Stealth (+1 Move, invisible in Forest/Jungle)
Gorilla's Cunning (+1 Strength, free Hidden Nationality promotion)
Wolf's Tenacity (+25% withdrawal chance, +35% from Wolf Pack)
Spider's Venom (+2 poison)

Each animal then gives your beastmasters a decent unique ability, affecting how that unit can best be used.
 
I like attaching animals to beastmasters, like great commanders. Plus they should be *able to enter the city and take animals from their pens*. Immagine your newly built beastmaster entering capitol and deciding what to pick for escort. And they could latter dettach animal and return it to the cage. But I don't know how would it deal with promotions (Unpromoted bear would be the same as lvl. 10 bear, and when dettached it would lose all promotions since game probbably couldn't track it.
I like formations idea for the shield wall, it needs to be worked a bit and it shouldn't give just the bonuses against unitclass, but some abilities (Causes collateral damage to attackers stack, if shield wall loses battle attacker retreats and shield wall is left with 1 hp, column formation would give m,ovement but high strenght penalty)
 
I like attaching animals to beastmasters, like great commanders. Plus they should be *able to enter the city and take animals from their pens*. Immagine your newly built beastmaster entering capitol and deciding what to pick for escort. And they could latter dettach animal and return it to the cage. But I don't know how would it deal with promotions (Unpromoted bear would be the same as lvl. 10 bear, and when dettached it would lose all promotions since game probbably couldn't track it.
Heh, now if the BM could pick up the grand menagerie... Avatar of Beasts :)
 
With the Shield Wall, you could call it a Square, or something, have it have 1 cargo space for artillery and arcane/disciple units, and allow them to fire anyway. Starts out with Formation, but minus vs. Artillery and Archers. It would be like a ship out of water. In fact, you could call it that. A "landship." That was what they called tanks in WWI.
 
How come Flurries need something extra? I think they're awesome as is. A fast archery unit with Blitz. They're definitely a staple of a late game attack force, along with Spartiatoi.

Shield Walls - I think they should get an anti-Marksman ability, causing a Marksman to always target them over any other target. Also, I would consider lowering their attack strength to 2 (or even 1). As it is, they're still pretty strong offensively with Mithril weapons.

Beastmasters are definitely pretty bland as is. Maybe they should be able to summon Hawks and Tigers. Obviously their summoned Tigers shouldn't be able to be penned up. The question would be whether or not to allow them to attack on the same turn they cast, and/or if their summons should last an extra turn. Otherwise, would it be worth it to use a high-str T4 unit to cast?
 
Beastmasters could have a spell to summon an animal depending on the terrain they are currently standing on.

Note that I don't think that beastmasters are just a bland T4 unit. In fact I wouldn't really compare them to Flurry or Spartiatoi, since the research you need to be able to produce them is much lower, hence they come into play much earlier and generally when they do, there is hardly anything that can resist a Strength 13 unit, which makes them quite powerful for a period of time...
 
okay how about,

Empty the cages-
The beast master removes cages from cities, adding strength(promotions?) to himself for each animal freed.

wolf, +1 str or enables sprint w/+35&#37; vs meelee
bear, +2 strength
elephant, +2 strength, +35% vs mounted
panther, +1 strength, +35% vs archers, or stealth in jungles
lion, +1 strength, perm courage and loyalty effect
gorrilla +1 strength, +25% city attack
spider +2 poison, enemy units become entangled
(units attacking the beastmaster can't withdraw, if it withdraws from another unit that unit can't move)
 
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