Charlemange Challenge

[krikav]

@krikav I think I see the merit in your approach now. I need to pay more attention to the technical rules of the game. Gives me more tools at my arsenal.

Spoiler :

In almost all semi-iso situations you DO want to take the neighbours land. And doing it faster is almost certainly better than doing it slower. There are exceptions ofcourse when there is alot of land thats tough to develop, could pay of to let the AI develop it for you, but all things equal getting the continent under your control earlier than later is best.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T131 :

After pyramids, I have been trying to grow pretty much constantly, I had 3 settlers in queue prior to pyras as I was approaching happycap, but I left them in queue untill they where close to start getting hammer decay.
I'm not sure why I have visibility on Mehmed, is that because I got him pleased so quick and he havn't put EPs on me? Did he run into economic problems early on and couldn't afford to run the normal AI 10-20% ep slider? In either case, I took advantage of seeing him go mono->monarchy at which point I went for math. I really want calendar for those 3 awesome plains-incense (8 yield tiles!).
3 math chops makes a library in fish-city, so I don't have to bother with a monument.

I was expecting to get fishing too, for math+medi, but I was tottaly wrong in how valuable they where. I calculate the value of my techs 80%, and add them together and try to put just enough beakers into alpha to get it...
But T102 I fail too, I'm not sure, but somehow my calculation where off (multiple rounding errors..?)

I have to pay up to get fishing now, since I need to get the workboat out in time for the fish borderpop.

Failgold was running low and gardens wasn't built which was abit weird. But I figured I would give them a try.

Up at calendar, another settler to gift mehmed is on the way. In Aachen I prioritized food and fast regrowth after the aqueduct whip, but as I was nearing completion of gardens I changed tac and tried to get them instead, with 8 cities and difficulty growing the added pop is really sweet.
In almost all cities I where prioritizing growth even over stagnating on rep-scientists, I did want to stay at a higher pop, maturing non-riverside-grassland cottages. I have a feeling that it could be a very long game, and I want a bunch of towns to help me later on.
I leave a open path to chain-irrigate my eastern front aaaaall the way from capital though.

I did a 3pop whip of gardens T113.
Thats a wonder that I always seem to think is worth whipping. 3 pop in capital for 8 pop empire-wide feels so worth it.
I did screw myself up with this though, I was planning on letting capital only work cottages, and let other cities surpass it in GPGeneration to ensure 2 GScis at about T145 (For astro), but with Gardens+Pyramids, there was no way to get both before a GEng spawned.
What I did when I realized this was to run 2 scientists in capital too as a gamble.
The notes here are to help me think about the workboat for Florences fish.

I think I got the odds up to almost 40%, a GEng I would almost certainly have settled.

At only +8 I suddenly get friendly with Mehmed? I had a third settler on it's way to gift him yet another city with the intent of bumping him up to +10 once I had resource/OB/Years of peace up.
I do this trade right away which gives me quite a economic boost (+13 commerce right away!)
Shortly after this trade, I drop down to pleased again untill I gift away the city.

He could have picked a better city to build that in, but it was funny that he picked it, and I'm not crying tears of lost desert/plains tiles either.

These are the kinds of cities that are nice to gift away. Enjoy the upkeep of this one Mehmed my friend.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T134 :

Will reach optics T139, and get bulb astro T147 (no trades needed).
I screwed up with city growth and unhappines, so building some chariots now to fix that.

Mehmed can have stone and sheep, but no happines. (Although he has HR now). I have two source of iron now (ofcourse one was in the tile that will likely be stolen by GLibs culture).

Mehmed is going heavy on the wonders! (Have reasons to not trade aestethics/poly)

#4 in GNP and #5 in land. Have seen quite a collection of GGenerals spawn, so likely some AI is making a killing, creating tiny vassals.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T163 :

Shortly after reaching optics, Parthenon is built and Mehmed had 390g, so I sold him compass for that gold. And thats pretty much the only trade that he got from me after that.

Met Capac and got some trades from him, and met Zara who had Paper to I paid up 160g to get a view of what was going on.
It seems like Hannibal is kicking Egypt pretty hard. Peaceweight wise Zara and Egypt are the odd ones out, the rest of the crowd will have a tendency to like each other. Hannibal and Monty are rivals due to religion though. But this looks really really tough... Not only do I have to topple Mehmed, but then it might be at least two runaways to handle.

I self-teched CoL, and put a turn into Feud and got that from Monty to get a discount on CS. Now when I bulb Astro I shut borders with Mehmed to slow him down yet abit more.

At CS I revolt to Bur+OR, I have gotten no useful religious spread yet but I hope to catch Hindu or Buddhism so I can befriend either Monty or Hannibal.
Nasty Hannibals Shrines are way closer though, so they spread way more rapidly.

Yes... You got units Mehmed my friend.

T158 I had met everyone, Monty was hating Hatty so I couldn't trade anything from her.
I give Monty Astro to attack Hatty and DoW her myself too for some shared war bonus with both the big guys.
Also traded for paper+banking for astro with Hannibal at the same turn.
Next turn when Mehmed is 1T from banking I sell it to him for 80g if he goes into OR. He has no religion yet so it's just one turn of revolt and some extra upkeep for him.

Have just reached gunpowder. Likely GSci next turn and I think Academy is the way to go. Mehmed is going for gunpowder and if I know anything about him he will either go for MilSci or for nationalism->MT after that.
I'm not sure (almost certain I can't) get enough units up in time to hit him with just cannons+muskets, even though I would want to, before he has some stronger units around.
It could be that I need to tech all the way to rifling/MT/MilSci + steel myself to have a functional war against him.
I'm abit envious of Lain, who had a Mehmed who ignored currency/calendar/monarchy for the longest time, but each game has it's challenges.

With some luck, I'll get PP+RP in trades and reach quick rifles.
WIth no religion yet (for theo), I think drafting is off the table, even with PRO, they are so weak, but police state gives me efficient whipping enough I think.
Feel abit stupid for taking paper in a trade now, because bulbing chemistry could have been nice.
With nationalism in trade I might go MT?
Noone has education yet... Should I perhaps dare to start teching it myself for a few turns and see if noone has it when I'm halfway through? I could bulb the second half and go for lib.
But that could mean I have to resort to libbing chemistry or something like that.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T193 :

T165 Monty quits his war against Hatty, apparantly a AP vote to stop the war against Monty... Now he has peacetreaty with everyone so I quickly beg 1g from him.
I went HBR first, then Drama (needed a theatre to secure iron, and open up a music trade). Then full speed toward chemistry.
I thought abit about going edu and perhaps bulb half of it, but even at 100% I was faaaar away from #1 in demographics so a lib win was extremly unlikely.

Then all of the sudden, everyone and his grandmother has education.
I traded philosophy for music with monty.
Hatty capitulated to Hanny and right away Hanny and Zara starts plotting! Mehmed begs me for CS but I just say no can do mate, you need to remain in the stoneage!

Hannibal got there first!
The next turn, Monty joins the fun and DoWs Hannibal. I think it was the same turn as his peacetreaty went off too. I suspect a bribe but couldn't figure out what he got.

Since Monty DoWs Hannibal+Hatty, Hatty is now is W/E and I can finally trade with Capac so I get Nationalism and start to hope for a MT trade in the future.
Once I got Chemistry I whipped out some privateers to slow Mehmed down more.

When Mehmed was one turn away from finishing Chemistry I decided to break the monopoly first, noone of the others had any beakers into Chem. I traded chem for PP with Monty.
Put a full turn into RP and hoped I would get it from Zara, but he wasn't interested. Put some more into it the following turn, but by then he had already gotten chemistry from Monty. Grrrr

A little while later I finish Steel at the same time as Hannibal gets Scientific Method.
Here I try to broker abit by trading steel for RP with Zara, then trade RP+chem for SciMeth with Hannibal, and then swing SciMeth back to Zara.
I also ask Zara to stop his war against Hannibal, mainly so I can trade with Hannibal without getting diplo his with Zara, but also to help Hannibal out abit and keep the balance between the two giants Hannibal/Monty.
I was expecting a diplo hit with Hannibal, but got none at all which suprised me.

T183 RP+Chem for SciMeth with Hannibal.
T184 I was going to get Education from Zara, but by then Capac had education too so I got it from him and was hoping to trade Economics/Liberalism or something from Zara T185...
But by then, Zara had already finished most of SciMeth and wasn't willing to give me more than cash for it.

Somewhere here I gave up hope getting Buddhism/Hinduism and built 2 missionaries to spread Tao to a few more key cities. 3-4 cities had it already by autospread.

T186 I pulled the trigger and did a Paci-Push, Rep+Bur+Caste+Merc+Paci and swap into Tao.
I also get a GGeneral from my 5 privateers slaughtering Mehmeds triremes.

I start to appreciate privateers more and more. I get some use out of them in almost every game.
The GGeneral was nice, and that doens't happen in most games, but you do get some cash in almost every game.

But here is whats REALLY nice with privateers.
I have mostly only had one privateer close to these 3 cities now, from T176 to T193, and gotten Samsun down from pop12 to pop6, Pisa from 10->6 and Izmir from 11->6, thats huge!
Very hard to quantify ofcourse, but by prioritizing you can oftentimes slow down one or two AIs alot, with not that much of an investment.
Poor guy Mehmed has just finished CoL and is now half-way into Optics.

Monty and Mehmed won't trade with me because I'm too advanced, but the others still will. I started biology a while back, hoping to get MT/MilSci/Liberalism in trades.
Last turn of the GA, I was abit unlucky and got 2 GSci, and Maniz is looking like it can screw me up even more with a third GSci too. So might not get a 2Person GA for a long time.
Have just swapped to policestate+vass+slavery+free market+theocracy. Had I gotten liberalism in a trade I would have gone into free religion to make diplo easier but now I'll just enjoy the xp instead.
Getting an sufficient large and advanced army to topple Mehmed looks very much doable now, and the question is more now about how fast I can do it, and how to proceed once the continent is mine.

 

[krikav]

Last update today.

Spoiler T203 :

Now I'm in a phase where I more or less whip away towns and don't care about tomorrow. Need alot of units and I need them quick.

Got constitution from Capac for rifling, next turn I sell it to Monty/Hannibal to get +4 fair trade with Hannibal and to simply get more cash.
Monty/Hannibal make peace and I beg 1g from Monty again. Luckily he had forgot about the T165 beg and I feel safe once again.
After Hannibal gets Constitution he is pleased too and I'm safe there too.

What I waited eagerly for happend. I needed either this or MilSci to get some units to defend against Mehmeds hordes of grenadiers.

Zara thinks I'm too advanced now. Likely due to him being higher in the scoreboard.
I will tech slowly toward corporations, but hope for trades for steampower/Physics/lib/communism, everything toward assembly line and artillery.
But now it's 0% slider untill every elephant is a cavallery.

2 of the 5 privateers have died now to caravels, the other 3 probably will hold their ground and wait untill they get killed by frigattes.
If I don't get physics in a turn or so, so I can scout mehmed with airships, It's time to open borders and find out where his doomstack is. He got a minor stack up in Bursa but the main must be hiding somewhere else.
Should perhaps build some spies and see if I could steal some cities T0 of a war (Edirne and the city South of Vienna) with revolt+cavallery.
Need to split the stack abit with some guards to defend vienna and counter his doomstack which could jump out from istanbul.
I will remodel some tiles outside of vienna to forts, and would be very happy if he would be so cooperative and place his doomstack in a fort for my cannons to blaze him.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T214 :

Zara built Kremlin, might have a shot at stealing it later on.
The privateers are starting to have a rough time.

Gotten all 7 elephants upgraded to cavallery now and working toward corporations. Hannibal is so nice and offers up steampower.
I would love to get my hands on liberalism soon, because I want to do a revolt to burocracy+liberalism. The heathen religion penalty is starting to build up, and since most cities except for capital is starting to look small and weak, going from vass->bur makes alot of sense.

Found Mehmeds doomstack, not as massive as I feared, so it's gotime!
In hindsight, I should most probably started the war alot earlier.

Had 5 spies to make sure I did succed, and the first one does. Only had -10 or -20% though, so it was abit on the expensive side.
I attacked along the desert tile which unfortunatly stayed in his culture after the capture. The oasis wasn't roaded so the rifles I had prepared to go in and guard couldn't get there in time, so I just stacked in all cavallery to feel safe.

Mehmed cooperates nicely. Looking at the screenshot now I see I could have been screwed if he went on that town tile 1E of Vienna. I think the tile SW of the marble was mine at some point so I just forgot about that attack vector.
Some brave knights just charge into the rifles.

Too few units.
The next turn he just suicides all the remaning units too, thanks Mehmed!

His auxiliary stack that was standing in Bursa is on the move.

Here I realized I screwed up and didn't have enough EP for a revolt, but there was so few units so I just charged anyway. I send in the 5xp Cavallery first, promoted combat+pinch, then cavallery for longer term keeping promoted along the combat line take safer fights.

I pick of stray units and steal some worker and pillage abit, then we take a ceasefire.
DoW T212, ceasefire T214, killed his SOD and gotten capital+second city.
Wars like this I like alot. Muhahaha!
The 5 privateers (still 3 alive!) was really lucky with some frigate kills too, but 18 triremes+8caravels+1galley+3frigates are a sweet deal.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T243 :

No GA for me in a long time it seems, I got a third GScientist and now I have 3 of thsoe guys hanging around.

I thought I was so smart staying outside his city, letting him jump into it with his doomstack while I was ready to blaze him down. But I tottaly forgot about that he would reconquer those tiles I wanted to waltz in on.

This turn I saw that Montys red fist was gone, so I tried to beg 1g but that failed now. :/
Capac has railroad up for trade, but bio is not enough. Istanbul was starving and I had alot of cities in revolt, so I revolted to Buddhism (because I conquered one city that had buddhism!) and that bumped me up to friendly with Zara, enabling me to trade bio for lib (Zara got a hell of a bargain), but I get 670g too and thats nice.

Next turn I trade bio+lib+710g and get railroad from capac, then I enter a long hibernation revolt, changing pretty much every civic.
I don't need more units, but I probably need to tech abit, and free religion makes diplo abit easier.

The AI have a proclivity to park ships in forts, so I built a fort on neutral ground (can they enter then..?) and hanged outside with my last privateers, but for once, Mehmed did not fall right into my devious trap.

Now I enter a fog of war mentally, and forget about empire management and techs and diplo for a long while.

War unhappines is gone and I can turn the culture slider down from it's 40%, quite wonderful!
Monty is plotting, likely against Hannibal who has a vassal that is his worst enemy.
Zara is holding up great on his own despite being smaller and would make for a good target for me.
3 turns to a GPerson which better not be a fourth GSci at 4% odds. Perhaps back to police-state and whip a navy.

Infantry+Cannons is probably enough to catch Zara.

 

[Pangaea]

No GA for me in a long time it seems, I got a third GScientist and now I have 3 of thsoe guys hanging around.

Seems a little harsh to hang them all

 

[Fish Man]

Spoiler T243 :

No GA for me in a long time it seems, I got a third GScientist and now I have 3 of thsoe guys hanging around.

I thought I was so smart staying outside his city, letting him jump into it with his doomstack while I was ready to blaze him down. But I tottaly forgot about that he would reconquer those tiles I wanted to waltz in on.
View attachment 589378

This turn I saw that Montys red fist was gone, so I tried to beg 1g but that failed now. :/
Capac has railroad up for trade, but bio is not enough. Istanbul was starving and I had alot of cities in revolt, so I revolted to Buddhism (because I conquered one city that had buddhism!) and that bumped me up to friendly with Zara, enabling me to trade bio for lib (Zara got a hell of a bargain), but I get 670g too and thats nice.
View attachment 589379

Next turn I trade bio+lib+710g and get railroad from capac, then I enter a long hibernation revolt, changing pretty much every civic.
I don't need more units, but I probably need to tech abit, and free religion makes diplo abit easier.
View attachment 589380

The AI have a proclivity to park ships in forts, so I built a fort on neutral ground (can they enter then..?) and hanged outside with my last privateers, but for once, Mehmed did not fall right into my devious trap.
View attachment 589382

Now I enter a fog of war mentally, and forget about empire management and techs and diplo for a long while.
View attachment 589383

War unhappines is gone and I can turn the culture slider down from it's 40%, quite wonderful!
Monty is plotting, likely against Hannibal who has a vassal that is his worst enemy.
Zara is holding up great on his own despite being smaller and would make for a good target for me.
3 turns to a GPerson which better not be a fourth GSci at 4% odds. Perhaps back to police-state and whip a navy.
View attachment 589384
Infantry+Cannons is probably enough to catch Zara.
View attachment 589385

View attachment 589386

View attachment 589388

Spoiler :

Good job making it this far!

At this point I would all-in tanks and bombers against Hannibal after capping Zara as a beachhead. The best techer in the game with 18 cities won't be far from space soon. Monty OTOH can't tech his way out of a paper bag, so he should be no threat really. It'll be nice if Monty declares on Hannibal at the right time.

Be careful to check for culture wins periodically.

 

[Berks]

@krikav

Spoiler :

Enjoyable read and well played overall so far.
Loved seeing the Hanging Gardens, I thought that was considered a don't build wonder(?) Seemed to give you a nice boost right at a crucial time.
Also Privateers, those are usable on Deity? I get Mehmed is a bad techer but I would have thought Hannibal or Zara would send their frigates over just for funsies. Some excellent play there.
Interesting ideas with the forts as well.

Out of my depth to offer much advice but cheering you on against Zara & then Hannibal.

 

[krikav]

@Berks

Spoiler :

Gardens is a very nice wonder, but it's not something that you can usually build. Here I think I started with just placing an aqueduct as a placeholder more or less, but then I realized they where still available so I figured I could get some sweet failgold to carry me to optics faster. And then the turns went on and I got more and more eager to get them.
I did get pyramids at an absurdly late date too, don't know why they where so slow, perhaps the avid wonderbuilders got stuck in an early war..?

Regarding privateers, yes, they do tend to have a extremly narrow window, but in many games I have gotten quite nice use of them. The trick as I see it, is to just build a few and hope they pay off. It doesn't make sense to go way overboard with them and hope they can last long.
Abit like buying a lottery ticket. Sometimes it's just that you lose 240 hammers, but sometimes you can sink your main rivals capital from pop 21->12.
I did get good return for them in NC269 too:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...gamesh-of-sumeria.667010/page-2#post-16020030
Then there was a Toku game that Pangaea posted where I also tried to get something useful out of privateers, but that didn't happen there.
All in all, I think there is a place for them also on deity.