Chavez is president for life

I don't know, Chavez was running around, being pretty active and has a head full of hair again. He got his cancer treated somehow while Venezuelans (Including my grandmother) can't get treatment for breast cancer because there are no capable doctors and there are no chemotherapy treatments available in the country due to lack of resources.

I have to concede that the problem isn't Chavez. The problem is Venezuela and Venezuelans. I just have to realize that most of the country are ignorant idiots. No where else in the world a candidate who nationalized banks robbing millions of dollars from the people, where crime rate has risen to the worst in the world, where there is now water and light in the cities DAILY, where the tv stations who are against his rule have been forced to shut down, where the price of milk has skyrocketed to the point where it'd be considered expensive in the west, where he preaches anti-semitism in his campaign, where there's holes in the streets and highways, and really I can go on for a long time with this.

Venezuelans are just ignorant idiots.

"Un país ignorante, es instrumento ciego de su propia destrucción" - Simón Bolívar.

I entirely understand your frustration, and feel the same about my countrymen very often.

But I think we ought to cut Venezuelans some slack. For starters, it's hard to tell even if the result was fair or not. Not only that, but Chávez run an unparalleled intimidation campaign against the opposition, complete with gunmen shooting oppositionists even as they cast their votes. The destruction of the secret vote no doubt intimidated all civil servants (and also people who depend on the government one way or another), and so by this simple maneuver Chávez guaranteed a huge chunk of the electorate.

No doubt, many Venezuelans are idiots. But this wasn't their free and democratic decision. It was the result of intimidation, threats, and a vastly unequal struggle.

If anything, I congratulate the 45% of Venezuelans who risked their necks to say NO MORE.
 
I have to concede that the problem isn't David Cameron. The problem is Britain and the British. I just have to realize that most of the country are ignorant idiots. Nowhere else in the world a party who deregulated the banks and robbed millions of pounds from the people bailing them out of schemes that went bad in the end, where the crime rate has risen because the police are being downsized, where things like prison management have been outsourced to a dubious and incompetent big business, where media figures closely connected to the party are embroiled in serious ethical scandals, where the price of university education has skyrocketed to the point where it'd be considered expensive in the West, where they preach xenophobia and monolculturalism, where there are holes in the protection of vulnerable groups such as disabled people, and really I can go on for a long time with this.

The British are just ignorant idiots.
 
But I think we ought to cut Venezuelans some slack. For starters, it's hard to tell even if the result was fair or not. Not only that, but Chávez run an unparalleled intimidation campaign against the opposition, complete with gunmen shooting oppositionists even as they cast their votes. The destruction of the secret vote no doubt intimidated all civil servants (and also people who depend on the government one way or another), and so by this simple maneuver Chávez guaranteed a huge chunk of the electorate.

Bullcrap. The elections were clean. Chavez won. Again. There was no "destruction of the secret vote". And even had there been such a thing with the elections so close this time there was no saying who'd win, Chavez or the neoliberal masquerading as social-democrat.

You're just frustrated because Venezuela keeps failing to collapse, contrary to your expectations.
 
Bullcrap. The elections were clean. Chavez won. Again. There was no "destruction of the secret vote". And even had there been such a thing with the elections so close this time there was no saying who'd win, Chavez or the neoliberal masquerading as social-democrat.

You're just frustrated because Venezuela keeps failing to collapse, contrary to your expectations.

This makes me wonder about people living in a socialist state that is mostly funded by oil exports. What would happen if suddenly the rest of the world decided to stop buying oil?
 
This thread reminds me of how many Republicans felt when they lost the last presidential election.
 
Bullcrap. The elections were clean. Chavez won. Again. There was no "destruction of the secret vote". And even had there been such a thing with the elections so close this time there was no saying who'd win, Chavez or the neoliberal masquerading as social-democrat.

You're just frustrated because Venezuela keeps failing to collapse, contrary to your expectations.

Venezuela isn't going to collapse with it's oil money.

Venezuela under Chavez is indeed in sharp decline however.



The elections were probably rigged (There have already been calls for fraud circulating around) but it doesn't change the fact that Chavez does have lots of supporters and lots of ignorant people voting for him.
 
This thread reminds me of how many Republicans felt when they lost the last presidential election.

Seeing as I'm not from Venezuela it hardly matters to me one way or another. It might matter to the people there if they become too dependent on the socialist state then that collapses after their oil export revenues diminish. It certainly can't go on forever.
 
You could always move to a country where the president doesn't use the natural resources of the country to help the common man so much, instead of making rich people even richer. After all, Venezuela and Iran are far more the exception than the rule.
 
You could always move to a country where the president doesn't use the natural resources of the country to help the common man so much, instead of making rich people even richer. After all, Venezuela and Iran are far more the exception than the rule.

It's all for show. Chavez gives just enough oil money to the poor right before the elections to win votes.

Otherwise, Venezuela is not the exception, all the oil money goes straight to Chavez's Swiss banks.
 
Right. Of course he does. Just like the people who voted for him for doing so are "idiots".

It is a very simple solution. South and Central America are filled with suitable banana republics where the evil socialists will never come to power. Take the country right next door, for instance.
 
I have to concede that the problem isn't David Cameron. The problem is Britain and the British...The British are just ignorant idiots.

Nah, just the Englishmen.

Bullcrap. The elections were clean. Chavez won. Again. There was no "destruction of the secret vote". And even had there been such a thing with the elections so close this time there was no saying who'd win, Chavez or the neoliberal masquerading as social-democrat.

You're just frustrated because Venezuela keeps failing to collapse, contrary to your expectations.

Venezuela can keep failing to collapse, but is rotting pretty quickly.
 
You could always move to a country where the president doesn't use the natural resources of the country to help the common man so much, instead of making rich people even richer. After all, Venezuela and Iran are far more the exception than the rule.

Oh boy, what a surprise, Formaldehyde praising two notorious anti-semites!

What's next, someone will tell me the sky is blue?
 
Bullcrap. The elections were clean. Chavez won. Again. There was no "destruction of the secret vote". And even had there been such a thing with the elections so close this time there was no saying who'd win, Chavez or the neoliberal masquerading as social-democrat.

You're just frustrated because Venezuela keeps failing to collapse, contrary to your expectations.

Well let me see. Inflation above 25%. Check. Routine blackouts. Check. Empty supermarket shelfs. Check. Lower manufacturing output than a decade ago. Check.

It seems like a completely collapsed state except for one thing, which is the fact that since Chavez was elected oil prices increased more than tenfold. So he can keep the state in a permamnent UTI.

And no, the elections were not clean. Maybe Chavez got more votes, but everything I wrote was true. Widespread threats, intimidation, voter identification... Not clean at all.
 
And no, the elections were not clean. Maybe Chavez got more votes, but everything I wrote was true. Widespread threats, intimidation, voter identification... Not clean at all.

Bold claims and no evidence, as usual in your rambles about Venezuela.
 
You could always move to a country where the president doesn't use the natural resources of the country to help the common man so much, instead of making rich people even richer. After all, Venezuela and Iran are far more the exception than the rule.

In general the state helping the common man is a good thing. The idea of the common man living on the dole from the state that is getting most of it's money from oil revenue is scary. That person is more likely to be anti-environment even to the point of violence. Being an anti-oil environmental activist in Venezuela would be a very risky thing to do. The oil reserves, however large are a finite resource. Eventually, either it runs out or the world switches to renewable energy in a big way. Where does that leave the common man then? I can see that Venezuela as a nation quickly becoming destabilized and exploited. What Chavez is doing now might seem like a good thing to your average socialist but in the long term it's extremely evil.
 
How many people in Venezuela "live on the dole"? How does it compare to any modern country?

What sort of proof do you have that they are any more "anti-environment" than the typical Republican who denies AGW, while even more of them believe that Obama is a Muslim than think evolution is a sound scientific theory?

What proof do you have that Chavez is doing anything more "extremely evil" than the typical Texas oilman or our staunch allies in the middle east?

Do you really expect them to not sell their own natural resources when they are in such high demand? What other oil-rich country has not done so?

Why is there a quite obvious double standard here?
 
Bold claims and no evidence, as usual in your rambles about Venezuela.

I always provide evidence of Chávez's dictatorial abuses, but when I do you either claim they are not valid or disapear from the thread.

This took me 2 minutes. See:

Civil servants and employees of state-owned companies being forced to attend Chávez rallies:

Aveledo said he had obtained an internal memo from an official of the city of Vargas saying that attendance at Thursday's final campaign event was "obligatory."

Employees at the state-controlled oil company PDVSA have told The Times that their jobs depended on participation in pro-Chavez political rallies and wearing red shirts, the color closely associated with Chavez's "Bolivarian Revolution."
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/oct/04/world/la-fg-venezuela-chavez-20121005

While there is discontent within the company's ranks - some workers resented being bused to rallies during the election campaign, for instance - the creation of a single workers' union has limited criticism of PDVSA's management.
http://news.yahoo.com/analysis-chavez-win-means-more-same-venezuela-oil-054504159.html

Murder of oppositionists:
Gunmen shot and killed two local leaders of parties backing presidential challenger Henrique Capriles on Saturday in the worst violence of a volatile campaign before Venezuela's election next weekend.

End of vote secrecy (see how the voting machine is connected to the biometric identifier, meaning the government can easily tell who voted for who:



Chávez's monopoly of propaganda on all television:

Government buildings and websites are plastered with election propaganda, a violation of electoral law that has been met with only the most timid of protests from the mostly pro-government board of the electoral authority.
...
The president frequently commandeers all television channels for broadcasts that can last for hours; election rules limit Mr Capriles to three minutes of pre-recorded campaign broadcasting a day. This is just one way that the election, in the words of Ramón Guillermo Aveledo, secretary-general of the MUD, “will be free, but not fair”.
http://www.economist.com/node/21563706

There you have it.
 
In the aftermath of Venezuela’s elections yesterday, Hugo Chávez’s win is being cited by predictable sources as legitimizing his regime. “The victory of President Chávez is a victory for democracy,” declared Bolivia’s populist president Evo Morales. The earnest participation of the opposition in the elections further bolsters the idea of Chávez’s legitimacy in the minds of some as do references to the notion that “the people have spoken.”

While opposition candidate Henrique Capriles recognized his loss, it would be a mistake to interpret the election result as an accurate reflection of public sentiment. That’s because Chávez rigged the election process so firmly against any challenger that it’s astounding the opposition did so well (it got about 45 percent of the vote). Ask yourself this: If the following occurred in your country—as did in Venezuela—would you consider the outcome acceptable? This is some of what the opposition faced in its campaign:

The government disqualified leading opposition candidates on technicalities and through legal prosecution.
Chávez used unlimited state resources to explicitly engage in his re-election campaign. For example, state television stations broadcast pro-Chávez propaganda, and government buildings display as much too.
Capriles was limited to media appearances of three minutes per day, while Chávez appeared for hours at a time on all television stations as required by law.
The voter registry included irregularities or was at least questionable. From 2003 to 2012 the number of voters registered increased from about 12 million to almost 19 million even though the population grew by only a few million during that time. 14 of 24 states inVenezuelahave more registered voters than those eligible to vote. There are thousands of registered voters between the ages of 111 and 129.
Voting ballots were printed in such a way that many people who thought they were voting for Capriles had their votes counted as being cast for a third candidate.
Government spending increased by 30% over the past year; 8 million people are directly dependent in some way on government for their income or to receive handouts.
Chávez closed the consulate in Miami, home to thousands of likely Capriles supporters, forcing them to vote at the consulate in New Orleans or become disenfranchised.
The government intimidated voters, including government employees, by insinuating that their votes will not be secret.

This is an incomplete list. Add to that the fact that Chávez controls every institution of government—including the military, the congress, the supreme court, the national electoral council, the national oil monopoly, etc.—exercises control over most of the media (including much of the private press, whose rights he’s violated), and keeps the private sector on a tight leash through capital controls and other forms of economic repression. The abuse of power has been well documented by the Washington Post, Mary O’Grady at the Wall Street Journal, The Economist and other sources. (See here, here, here, here, here and here).

Venezuela stopped being a democracy long ago. That does not mean that the opposition’s campaign efforts were in vain. On the contrary, and in contrast to years past when it boycotted electoral politics, the opposition showed Venezuelans and the world the degree to which the regime would deploy dirty tricks, break the law, and otherwise undermine the election process—and still Chávez’s opponents achieved substantial support on election day.

So did Chávez win the elections? I don’t think so, but the point is we don’t really know since the contest was hardly fair. We can only really say that in every important way, Chávez heads an authoritarian regime. Let’s not let the election exercise fool us into thinking otherwise.
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/did-chavez-win-the-elections-is-venezuela-a-democracy/

I'm not a fan of the Cato Institute but what this article says rings true to me.
 
I always provide evidence of Chávez's dictatorial abuses, but when I do you either claim they are not valid or disapear from the thread.

This took me 2 minutes. See:

Civil servants and employees of state-owned companies being forced to attend Chávez rallies:


http://articles.latimes.com/2012/oct/04/world/la-fg-venezuela-chavez-20121005


http://news.yahoo.com/analysis-chavez-win-means-more-same-venezuela-oil-054504159.html

Murder of oppositionists:


End of vote secrecy (see how the voting machine is connected to the biometric identifier, meaning the government can easily tell who voted for who:



Chávez's monopoly of propaganda on all television:


http://www.economist.com/node/21563706

There you have it.


The problem with saying how terrible Chavez is all the time, and I agree he sucks, is that you're implying that his opposition would be any better. And there's just no reason to believe that to be true.
 
I'm not a fan of the Cato Institute but what this article says rings true to me.
According to the Republicans, many if not most Americans "receive handouts". And they don't even count many of the the rich and affluent who get that way directly on governmental subsidies and contracts.

Again, where is your proof that a substantially greater number of Venezuelans "live on the dole" when compared to any other modern country?

And even if they do receive a direct payment for oil revenue which could allow some to not have to be a full-time eomployee of someone else, what is so terrible about that? Why shouldn't all citizens of a country get revenue from their own natural resources, instead of a handful of rich people? Why is that "evil"?
 
Top Bottom