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Chavez is president for life

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by TheLastOne36, Oct 7, 2012.

  1. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    I entirely understand your frustration, and feel the same about my countrymen very often.

    But I think we ought to cut Venezuelans some slack. For starters, it's hard to tell even if the result was fair or not. Not only that, but Chávez run an unparalleled intimidation campaign against the opposition, complete with gunmen shooting oppositionists even as they cast their votes. The destruction of the secret vote no doubt intimidated all civil servants (and also people who depend on the government one way or another), and so by this simple maneuver Chávez guaranteed a huge chunk of the electorate.

    No doubt, many Venezuelans are idiots. But this wasn't their free and democratic decision. It was the result of intimidation, threats, and a vastly unequal struggle.

    If anything, I congratulate the 45% of Venezuelans who risked their necks to say NO MORE.
     
  2. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    I have to concede that the problem isn't David Cameron. The problem is Britain and the British. I just have to realize that most of the country are ignorant idiots. Nowhere else in the world a party who deregulated the banks and robbed millions of pounds from the people bailing them out of schemes that went bad in the end, where the crime rate has risen because the police are being downsized, where things like prison management have been outsourced to a dubious and incompetent big business, where media figures closely connected to the party are embroiled in serious ethical scandals, where the price of university education has skyrocketed to the point where it'd be considered expensive in the West, where they preach xenophobia and monolculturalism, where there are holes in the protection of vulnerable groups such as disabled people, and really I can go on for a long time with this.

    The British are just ignorant idiots.
     
  3. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Bullcrap. The elections were clean. Chavez won. Again. There was no "destruction of the secret vote". And even had there been such a thing with the elections so close this time there was no saying who'd win, Chavez or the neoliberal masquerading as social-democrat.

    You're just frustrated because Venezuela keeps failing to collapse, contrary to your expectations.
     
  4. Murky

    Murky Deity

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    This makes me wonder about people living in a socialist state that is mostly funded by oil exports. What would happen if suddenly the rest of the world decided to stop buying oil?
     
  5. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    This thread reminds me of how many Republicans felt when they lost the last presidential election.
     
  6. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    Venezuela isn't going to collapse with it's oil money.

    Venezuela under Chavez is indeed in sharp decline however.



    The elections were probably rigged (There have already been calls for fraud circulating around) but it doesn't change the fact that Chavez does have lots of supporters and lots of ignorant people voting for him.
     
  7. Murky

    Murky Deity

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    Seeing as I'm not from Venezuela it hardly matters to me one way or another. It might matter to the people there if they become too dependent on the socialist state then that collapses after their oil export revenues diminish. It certainly can't go on forever.
     
  8. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    You could always move to a country where the president doesn't use the natural resources of the country to help the common man so much, instead of making rich people even richer. After all, Venezuela and Iran are far more the exception than the rule.
     
  9. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    It's all for show. Chavez gives just enough oil money to the poor right before the elections to win votes.

    Otherwise, Venezuela is not the exception, all the oil money goes straight to Chavez's Swiss banks.
     
  10. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Right. Of course he does. Just like the people who voted for him for doing so are "idiots".

    It is a very simple solution. South and Central America are filled with suitable banana republics where the evil socialists will never come to power. Take the country right next door, for instance.
     
  11. Algeroth

    Algeroth 8 and 1/2

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    Nah, just the Englishmen.

    Venezuela can keep failing to collapse, but is rotting pretty quickly.
     
  12. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    Oh boy, what a surprise, Formaldehyde praising two notorious anti-semites!

    What's next, someone will tell me the sky is blue?
     
  13. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    Well let me see. Inflation above 25%. Check. Routine blackouts. Check. Empty supermarket shelfs. Check. Lower manufacturing output than a decade ago. Check.

    It seems like a completely collapsed state except for one thing, which is the fact that since Chavez was elected oil prices increased more than tenfold. So he can keep the state in a permamnent UTI.

    And no, the elections were not clean. Maybe Chavez got more votes, but everything I wrote was true. Widespread threats, intimidation, voter identification... Not clean at all.
     
  14. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Bold claims and no evidence, as usual in your rambles about Venezuela.
     
  15. Murky

    Murky Deity

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    In general the state helping the common man is a good thing. The idea of the common man living on the dole from the state that is getting most of it's money from oil revenue is scary. That person is more likely to be anti-environment even to the point of violence. Being an anti-oil environmental activist in Venezuela would be a very risky thing to do. The oil reserves, however large are a finite resource. Eventually, either it runs out or the world switches to renewable energy in a big way. Where does that leave the common man then? I can see that Venezuela as a nation quickly becoming destabilized and exploited. What Chavez is doing now might seem like a good thing to your average socialist but in the long term it's extremely evil.
     
  16. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    How many people in Venezuela "live on the dole"? How does it compare to any modern country?

    What sort of proof do you have that they are any more "anti-environment" than the typical Republican who denies AGW, while even more of them believe that Obama is a Muslim than think evolution is a sound scientific theory?

    What proof do you have that Chavez is doing anything more "extremely evil" than the typical Texas oilman or our staunch allies in the middle east?

    Do you really expect them to not sell their own natural resources when they are in such high demand? What other oil-rich country has not done so?

    Why is there a quite obvious double standard here?
     
  17. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    I always provide evidence of Chávez's dictatorial abuses, but when I do you either claim they are not valid or disapear from the thread.

    This took me 2 minutes. See:

    Civil servants and employees of state-owned companies being forced to attend Chávez rallies:

    http://articles.latimes.com/2012/oct/04/world/la-fg-venezuela-chavez-20121005

    http://news.yahoo.com/analysis-chavez-win-means-more-same-venezuela-oil-054504159.html

    Murder of oppositionists:
    End of vote secrecy (see how the voting machine is connected to the biometric identifier, meaning the government can easily tell who voted for who:



    Chávez's monopoly of propaganda on all television:

    http://www.economist.com/node/21563706

    There you have it.
     
  18. Murky

    Murky Deity

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    I'm not a fan of the Cato Institute but what this article says rings true to me.
     
  19. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    The problem with saying how terrible Chavez is all the time, and I agree he sucks, is that you're implying that his opposition would be any better. And there's just no reason to believe that to be true.
     
  20. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    According to the Republicans, many if not most Americans "receive handouts". And they don't even count many of the the rich and affluent who get that way directly on governmental subsidies and contracts.

    Again, where is your proof that a substantially greater number of Venezuelans "live on the dole" when compared to any other modern country?

    And even if they do receive a direct payment for oil revenue which could allow some to not have to be a full-time eomployee of someone else, what is so terrible about that? Why shouldn't all citizens of a country get revenue from their own natural resources, instead of a handful of rich people? Why is that "evil"?
     

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