Cherokee leader?

[TyrannusRex]

So, I've seen a Civ 5 mod that adds the Cherokee, led by Attakullakulla. I'm still doing research into the Cherokee for an idea I had, but so far, it seems like a decent choice. Previously though, I had been leaning towards Nanyehi (Nancy Ward) as a leader; her story interested me, and she seemed like a cool, overlooked woman from history.
Which of these do you think could potentially be a good representative for the Cherokee Nation in Civilization? Is there an even better potential leader that I've overlooked?
Would love to hear from members of the Cherokee Nation, if any are on here.

 

[Guandao]

How about Ostenaco as a possible leader choice? My personal preference is for the pre-Removal Cherokee leaders. Nancy Ward/Nanyehi seems like an appealing idea though.

 

[Zaarin]

I'd prefer to see a Muskogean tribe, ideally the Choctaw led by Pushmataha. Pre-removal Cherokee history was largely characterized by appeasement and capitulation, and it's hard to call post-removal Cherokee an independent civilization rather than a dependent nation of the US (which is their current status). If it must be the Cherokee, though, Ata-gul' kulu (Attakullakulu) is...an okay choice.

 

[Guandao]

I'd prefer to see a Muskogean tribe, ideally the Choctaw led by Pushmataha. Pre-removal Cherokee history was largely characterized by appeasement and capitulation, and it's hard to call post-removal Cherokee an independent civilization rather than a dependent nation of the US (which is their current status). If it must be the Cherokee, though, Ata-gul' kulu (Attakullakulu) is...an okay choice.

My preference for the so-called 5 Civilized Tribes goes like this:
1. Choctaw (Pushmataha)
2. Muscogee (Opothleyahola)
3. Chickasaw (Tishomingo)
4. Seminole (Osceola or Micanopy)
5. Cherokee (Nanyehi/Atakullakulla)

 

[Zaarin]

My preference for the so-called 5 Civilized Tribes goes like this:
1. Choctaw (Pushmataha)
2. Muscogee (Opothleyahola)
3. Chickasaw (Tishomingo)
4. Seminole (Osceola or Micanopy)
5. Cherokee (Nanyehi/Atakullakulla)

I'd switch Cherokee and Seminole, but otherwise same.

 

[Guandao]

I'd switch Cherokee and Seminole, but otherwise same.

I guess the Cherokee should have more precedence over the Seminole, who formed in a process of ethnogenesis......

 

[TyrannusRex]

I'm having trouble creating unique units, improvements, and abilities for the Cherokee that are more in line with pre-removal leaders than with the Trail of Tears. Any ideas?

 

[TahamiTsunami]

I voted for Nancy Ward since I found her a tad more interesting but Attakullakulla and Ostenaco would be fine choices too.

@TyrannusRex I was having a similar problem with finding unique units for the Choctaw. The best I could find for them were the mounted rifles during the Civil War and it looks like the Cherokee had mounted rifles as well. For something per-removal, the best I could see were blowguns but they definitely weren't unique to the Cherokee. It is quite difficult finding unique units that could be different enough from a typical warrior.

I'm not sure about a unique improvement but perhaps the ability could be connected to the white and red organizations of their society?

Edit: I saw on a Civ 5 Cherokee mod that their unique unit is the aniwina which replaces the musketman. I don't know much about them so it might be worth taking a closer look.

 

[Guandao]

I'll try looking for appropriate names for a possible Choctaw unique names tomorrow....I have a thick book on the Amerindian Southeast

 

[TahamiTsunami]

@Guandao As long as it isn't too much trouble for you then its definitely appreciated! It turns out that Google wasn't the greatest on helping me find a good Choctaw UU from the War of 1812 or earlier. Since both the Choctaw and Cherokee had mounted rifle groups in the Civil War, I'll be curious to see how different the potential UUs can be for them or even the other southeast tribes for that matter.

 

[Guandao]

@TahamiTsunami The Choctaw word for their warriors was "Tashka". Choctaw males were divided up into 4 ranks:
1) Grand chiefs/village chiefs/war chiefs
2) Hatak Holitopa "beloved men"
3) Tashka "warriors"
4) Hatak Imatahali "youth or supporting men", never struck a blow in war, or had killed only a woman or child....

 

[awesome]

Neither. I'd probably go with Sequoya. He's fairly well known and creating an alphabet is a pretty awesome accomplishment.
I'd say that if you need a female leader for the Americas, go with the Iroquois, Apache, or Maya.

 

[Zaarin]

Neither. I'd probably go with Sequoya. He's fairly well known and creating an alphabet is a pretty awesome accomplishment.
I'd say that if you need a female leader for the Americas, go with the Iroquois, Apache, or Maya.

He also never led the Cherokee in any sense whatsoever. You could point to Gandhi; you could also point to the fact that a significant portion of the serious fanbase dislikes Gandhi as a tired out meme. But who knows, maybe Sir Isaac Newton will lead England in Civ7 and Thomas Edison will lead America; then Sequoyah would be right at home leading the Cherokee.

 

[TahamiTsunami]

@Guandao I do love how the Hatak Imatahali are basically the dunces of the Choctaw men! The Tashka could be a satisfactory UU as a warrior replacement with stone-bladed axes called iski-fa. Perhaps they could have increased attack strength when fighting near rivers?

Also, perhaps the UU for the Cherokee could be based around their short spears?

@awesome Agreed that Sequoyah was a very accomplished and noteworthy person, but I still think that Nanyehi or the others mentioned above would probably be stronger choices.

 

[Guandao]

He also never led the Cherokee in any sense whatsoever. You could point to Gandhi; you could also point to the fact that a significant portion of the serious fanbase dislikes Gandhi as a tired out meme. But who knows, maybe Sir Isaac Newton will lead England in Civ7 and Thomas Edison will lead America; then Sequoyah would be right at home leading the Cherokee.

I have encountered support for Martin Luther King Jr to lead America in a Civ game....

 

[Zaarin]

I have encountered support for Martin Luther King Jr to lead America in a Civ game....

Who would actually be much closer to Gandhi than Tom Edison or Sequoyah, since Gandhi and MLK were at least leaders of their respective nations in a certain sense. Gandhi led the independence movement; MLK led the civil rights movement. Sequoyah...invented an alphabet.

 

[Krajzen]

Who would actually be much closer to Gandhi than Tom Edison or Sequoyah, since Gandhi and MLK were at least leaders of their respective nations in a certain sense. Gandhi led the independence movement; MLK led the civil rights movement. Sequoyah...invented an alphabet.

On the other hand, civ5 had Hiawatha as a leader for Iroquis.
A mythical guy who had like few sentences of a civilopedia 'biography'.

Civ series also had so brilliant leader choices as Gorgo (check her pathetic wikipedia biography), Maria of Portugal (only thing she did in her reign was running away), Boudica as leader of "Celts" with a Scottish dress (not to mention the only thing she did was genocide of several Roman cities and then being devastatingly curb stomped by the first counteroffensive they sent), Joan of Arc for France (don't get me wrong, I love her as a historical character)...

 

[Zaarin]

On the other hand, civ5 had Hiawatha as a leader for Iroquis.
A mythical guy who had like few sentences of a civilopedia 'biography'.

Civ series also had so brilliant leader choices as Gorgo (check her pathetic wikipedia biography), Maria of Portugal (only thing she did in her reign was running away), Boudica as leader of "Celts" with a Scottish dress (not to mention the only thing she did was genocide of several Roman cities and then being devastatingly curb stomped by the first counteroffensive they sent), Joan of Arc for France (don't get me wrong, I love her as a historical character)...

Sure, but I'd like to see Civilization's leader choices improve, not just add to the list of problematic leader choices. (I'll...sort of give Hiawatha a pass. Most historians agree he existed, and it's virtually impossible to find someone who lead the League as a whole because the League was led by a council--you basically have to resort to an individual tribe's warchief, like Joseph Brant, to get a historically attested leader. Which is also what I espouse: choose Joseph Brant as the leader of the Iroquois. But if you really want someone who led the whole League, Hiawatha's pretty much your only choice.)

 

[Krajzen]

For Cherokee, I'd prefer Nancy Ward, or rather NANYEHI as was her narive name.

Now, I am not sure about Cherokee abilities and bonuses...

 

[Lord Lakely]

You might want to look at their traditions and typical dances for ideas. That where I got the abilities for my Sioux civ from.

Muscogean cultures are also descendants from the Mississippian mound builders. A bonus to wonder construction could be an option. The other bonuses should probably be tied to warfare and agriculture, I suppose.