I hope you read my PM utterly proving you wrong on this.
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China possibly most free market country in the world????
- Thread starter Teeninvestor
- Start date
I hope you read my PM utterly proving you wrong on this.
Teeninvestor
Warlord
In which way is this discussion off-topic?
And I did not behave in the way you described. Most of the posts I did report WERE flames.
Yes, and the point is you have not refuted my points. What university I go does not matter. What matter is that my points are correct.
In terms of PPP, most Chinese do not live on less than 1 dollar a day. I already told you, the average wage is abotu 6000 USD /year (PPP).
We've already discussed this extensively
Basically this is the agreement:
China's good points
less government spending
less taxes
less borrowing, so less inflation is created
more freedom in some industries; contracting, ge ti fu.
less intervention overall(though most intervention is direct, the most harmful way)
US's good points:
(Before 2009) no nationalizations.
Courts are stronger.
less direct intervention(though more intervention in general).
I'll give some more numbers - still very rough, but better than yours. All figures are in yuan.
Coastal rich city:
1. Average dinner out: 30-100 per person
2. Typical cost for home-made dinner: 10-20 per person
3. Plasma TV: 5000-10000
4. Rent: 2000-4000 yuan/month for a double room
6. Home: 1-4 million for a three beds flat
7. Monthly income for average factory/office worker: 3000-8000
Inland medium sized city:
1. Average dinner out: 10-30 per person
2. Typical cost for home-made dinner: ~10 per person
3. LCD TV: 3000-7000
4. Rent: 300-500 yuan/month for a double room
6. Home: 200-400k for a three beds flat
7. Monthly income for average factory/office worker: 2000-5000
Poor inland rural village:
1. Average dinner out: 5-10 per person
2. Typical cost for home-made dinner: ~5 per person
3. CRT TV: 500-2000
4. Rent & Home: I don't know, but quite cheap.
7. Monthly income for average factory/office worker: 500-2000, could be as low as 200 in remote parts but quite rare.
As you can see the living standard is hugely different from place to place. Comparing with the UK or the US, where cost of living in a big city may be just 1-2 times over that of countryside, in China the ratio is closer to 10. This is not what normally happens in a free market as capital naturally flows into cheaper area. The reason for the huge inequality comes from many governmental policies, notably restriction of movement, tax exemptions in coastal cities, weak public health care and education in the countryside, and in general harder upward mobility.
It may be tempting to think China is "regulation free", in truth it is not. To open a business in China you also have to go through myriad hoops - except they are the wrong ones. Whereas an American regulator demands you to spend on ensuring the safety of your product, a Chinese tax collector "recommends" you to purchase a "specially made" PC, five times the market value, just to file your monthly tax return online. These more tricky parts are, unfortunately, not something you can deduce from tax rates.
carmen510
Deity
I think I may need to drill my points into your head, as you are missing my point near completion.
1. You said it was.
2. I did not mention that whatsoever in my original post.
Yes, you DID behave in that manner. As in, you did post basically: "You're flaming me." or something to that effect.
Actually, we have, if you check the vast amounts of pages. The fact that basically everyone, who have very different economic backgrounds and viewpoints, have so visibly opposed you is proof enough. Your points aren't correct in the ways of China = Free Market argument. The only context those arguments would fit in is in a debate on the topic (Like low taxes) SPECIFICALLY, and not in this broad topic.
Also, what education you received DOES matter. For all I know, your education could be at a grade school dropout level and teaching yourself to read.
Am I missing something here, because it seems like you have a huge problem in linking my post with yours in this example. For the simple reason that I ask for credentials and you simply stretch your points out, of which I do not need further discussion.
1. You said it was.
2. I did not mention that whatsoever in my original post.
Yes, you DID behave in that manner. As in, you did post basically: "You're flaming me." or something to that effect.
Actually, we have, if you check the vast amounts of pages. The fact that basically everyone, who have very different economic backgrounds and viewpoints, have so visibly opposed you is proof enough. Your points aren't correct in the ways of China = Free Market argument. The only context those arguments would fit in is in a debate on the topic (Like low taxes) SPECIFICALLY, and not in this broad topic.
Also, what education you received DOES matter. For all I know, your education could be at a grade school dropout level and teaching yourself to read.
Am I missing something here, because it seems like you have a huge problem in linking my post with yours in this example. For the simple reason that I ask for credentials and you simply stretch your points out, of which I do not need further discussion.
Crezth
i knew you were a real man of the left
Yeah but China's a dictatorship, so... screw that.
Amen, I am tired of Sinophile apologists.
carmen510
Deity
Actually the Fed does print the money. That's why its called a Federal Reserve Note.
"They are issued by the Federal Reserve Banks and have replaced United States Notes, which were once issued by the Treasury Department."
While its true Department of the Treasury does the actual physical creation of the currency via the Bureau of Engraving and Printing and United States Mint, The Fed actually pays for all of this and commissions the treasury to make currency.
I don't know about your PM, but you're just wrong. "99% of the population is living on more than $1 USD a day" is a safe guess even if you are talking about nominal value.
It's also plainly wrong to suggest China is communist. Today's China is half state corporatism and half free market. The state controls most of the big, vital industries, and private capital controls most of small to medium businesses. This way you get an interesting mixture of a fascist, powerful government, and liberal economical freedom for the individual. Communism, on the other hand, is perhaps the ideology that China is furthest away from right now.
Please don't reply to a post not involving you. Me and my sinophile friend had a very fruitful discussion about this in which we both made concessions to some points. 30% of China is living on less than a US dollar a day. 75% of rural areas live on less than a dollar a day.
They're still good for making fun of though.
That is true, but if they happen to share Chinese descent, they boil my blood with their loss of face! I mean, I can understand if you're a Chinese boy growing up under Party rule and you've been spoonfed propaganda all your life, but if you're, say, Chinese-Canadian, there's no excuse, really.
Does your fruitful discussion happen to involve using data from 1980?
carmen510
Deity
Its something called self-imposed ignorance.
I'm Chinese-American, but I believe I am a firm moderate in most political and economic issues. I'm not a sinophile, but I'm not a conservative American whackjob either.
That doesn't excuse it.
Man, seriously, I didn't know you were Chinese. But I am the same way as you, sort of. Centrist, but I myself have leftist leanings.
2007, but no biggie.
Ok, I actually did some research. I take back my assertion that 99% of Chinese live on above $1 a day, although you are still wrong
Try this link for a paper from World Bank. You are going to like the title, but perhaps not the content. Now, jump to Table 2 at the end of the paper. The column "With adjustment for lower rural prices - Z=$1.25" is the one you should look at.
Note that it is using $1.25 as poverty line rather than $1.00, so figure for $1.00 would be less than 10% - this difference would be pretty big.
Assuming that you were quoting a serious source, I suspect that you took the wrong table or columns. Wikipedia for example quotes a 34.9% figure from UNDP, which is... for population living under $2 a day. Were you thinking of that when you said "30% of China"?
potatokiosk
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2005
- Messages
- 2,292
Who cares, really? $2 a day is still abysmal. A country as poor as China simply does not have anywhere near as much economic opportunity as the US.
plarq
Crazy forever
Think about PPP(Purchasing Power Parity), China actually have GDP PPP per capita at 7000$.
However, incomes are significant lower than GDP.
Crezth
i knew you were a real man of the left
The PPP is the best and most accurate way to determine how well a country's citizens do in terms of wage. The problem is, that number (for China) is offset by the split between urban and rural workers. Urban workers make about three times as much as rural workers, who continue to be shafted by the government.
potatokiosk
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2005
- Messages
- 2,292
But urban workers have to pay a lot more for things like rent so I wouldn't say either is really being shafted more than the other.
GDP per Capita, PPP or not, does not in any way reflect how well the ordinary citizen does.
GDP per Capita, PPP or not, does not in any way reflect how well the ordinary citizen does.
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