China - Qin Shi Huang Thread

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Moderator Action: Thread title changed

 

[skyclad]

The great wall is so far my least favourite thing about all the civs.
I can't believe they would put it on the map, require each section to take up a whole tile, and then it does nothing to stop movement. I guess if it has adjacency bonuses and a strong combat bonus it almost makes sense, but still. Its there on the map! Sure it's nice that it gives some gold or whatever but it feels so strange if you would build the great wall, to get gold?? Surely it is either a weak yield, or if its a strong yield then I am even more confused it makes more sense to build towns and trading posts to make money, than walls...
I guess if it's weak it is ok as long as the other abilities are strong (which they seem to be) but a big missed opportunity I think!
It would not be in civ5 where it slowed movement in the entire civ. Just like one poster suggested, "count as road for chinese and river for foreigners" would be interesting.

 

[AntoineS]

http://www.millenium.org/civilizati...n-shi-huangdi-bonus-faction-nation-mtj-146602

Guys, according to this article:

1) Normal Eureka and Inspiration bonuses are worth 50% per tech and civic. China gets a 10% bonus, pushing it up to 60%

2) Each builder charge that the chinese use can speed up the production of ancient and classical era wonders by 15% (doesn´t say how many charges can be sacrificed per Wonder though, or even if there is a limit at all)

I posted some more details on France´s features, coming from the same website, on the France thread, go check it out

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

http://www.millenium.org/civilizati...n-shi-huangdi-bonus-faction-nation-mtj-146602

Guys, according to this article:

1) Normal Eureka and Inspiration bonuses are worth 50% per tech and civic. China gets a 10% bonus, pushing it up to 60%

2) Each builder charge that the chinese use can speed up the production of ancient and classical era wonders by 15% (doesn´t say how many charges can be sacrificed per Wonder though, or even if there is a limit at all)

I posted some more details on France´s features, coming from the same website, on the France thread, go check it out

Are there similar details for America, Japan, England, or Egypt?

 

[AntoineS]

Are there similar details for America, Japan, England, or Egypt?

Yes, but nothing we don´t already know on those civs

 

[evanaurora]

http://www.millenium.org/civilizati...n-shi-huangdi-bonus-faction-nation-mtj-146602

Guys, according to this article:

1) Normal Eureka and Inspiration bonuses are worth 50% per tech and civic. China gets a 10% bonus, pushing it up to 60%

2) Each builder charge that the chinese use can speed up the production of ancient and classical era wonders by 15% (doesn´t say how many charges can be sacrificed per Wonder though, or even if there is a limit at all)

I posted some more details on France´s features, coming from the same website, on the France thread, go check it out

60% seems reasonable- significant, but not game-breaking. Still, it seems like China will be EXTREMELY powerful.

Personally, I'm excited about that, because the Eurekas are an active and strategic way to interact with the all-important technological progression, and China boosting that will just make them that much more important. I can see why they're highlighted in the footage we've seen- they definitely seem like a great 'intro to civ 6' civ.

 

[joncnunn]

2) Each builder charge that the chinese use can speed up the production of ancient and classical era wonders by 15% (doesn´t say how many charges can be sacrificed per Wonder though, or even if there is a limit at all)

An early video implies there's no limit because they completed Oracle in the middle of a turn as China via a builder charge.

Considering that each use burns up a worker charge, I doubt there's a limit, particularly with a cut off that early. (It carries it's own penalties if you go crazy on this in terms of what else you could have been using builders for and building on those cities other than builders.)

What's not known is what happens to overflow hammers.

 

[xxhe]

An early video implies there's no limit because they completed Oracle in the middle of a turn as China via a builder charge.

Considering that each use burns up a worker charge, I doubt there's a limit, particularly with a cut off that early. (It carries it's own penalties if you go crazy on this in terms of what else you could have been using builders for and building on those cities other than builders.)

What's not known is what happens to overflow hammers.

It also depends on how expensive a builder is

 

[stealth_nsk]

It also depends on how expensive a builder is

They can't be too expensive - they are quite early unit and I believe we saw the number of turns required to build it, it wasn't large compared to other units. Also, if there are no limits, China ability requires only 2 Builders and 1 charge will be left, so it's pretty powerful. You could first build Builders and once you research tech - instabuild the Wonder.

 

[AntoineS]

They can't be too expensive - they are quite early unit and I believe we saw the number of turns required to build it, it wasn't large compared to other units. Also, if there are no limits, China ability requires only 2 Builders and 1 charge will be left, so it's pretty powerful. You could first build Builders and once you research tech - instabuild the Wonder.

Hope there is some sort of a limit: 1 charge per builder that can be spent on wonder production accelertion type thing, it seems it would be too easy otherwise... you target the techs and civics you want depending on the type of terrain that´s around you, get to them faster thanks to the eurekas, build 2 builders, and a few turns later, BANG, your wonder´s there...

Although barbarians and other civs might force you to build defenses earlier than in prior civ games, and that it might delay the building of important improvements, it still appears to make things way (too?) eas(y)ier

 

[stealth_nsk]

Hope there is some sort of a limit: 1 charge per builder that can be spent on wonder production accelertion type thing, it seems it would be too easy otherwise... you target the techs and civics you want depending on the type of terrain that´s around you, get to them faster thanks to the eurekas, build 2 builders, and a few turns later, BANG, your wonder´s there...

Although barbarians and other civs might force you to build defenses earlier than in prior civ games, and that it might delay the building of important improvements, it still appears to make things way (too?) eas(y)ier

It's all the matter of balance. We look at China and see guaranteed early Wonder race win for targeted wonders and it's like "Wow". But the wonders we've seen so far are not game-winning and the cost of focusing on Wonder (Builder in case of China) production is delayed expansion, which could be huge.

Also, China is the only truly defensive civ we've seen so far, with so strong emphasis on defending what they have siege unit replaced with anti-personnel one. Since we could expect Civ6 to favor expansion much more than Civ5, being tall could be quite big weakness, compensating the China bonuses.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Hope there is some sort of a limit: 1 charge per builder that can be spent on wonder production accelertion type thing, it seems it would be too easy otherwise... you target the techs and civics you want depending on the type of terrain that´s around you, get to them faster thanks to the eurekas, build 2 builders, and a few turns later, BANG, your wonder´s there...

Although barbarians and other civs might force you to build defenses earlier than in prior civ games, and that it might delay the building of important improvements, it still appears to make things way (too?) eas(y)ier

It's balanced by Wonders having terrain or adjacency requirements (you have to have a Campus with a library to build the Great Library, for instance. You have to pre-build that stuff. You can't just be stockpiling Builders) and that China can only do this for 2 eras.

 

[stealth_nsk]

It's balanced by Wonders having terrain or adjacency requirements (you have to have a Campus with a library to build the Great Library, for instance. You have to pre-build that stuff. You can't just be stockpiling Builders) and that China can only do this for 2 eras.

Terrain requirements don't make you build staff. So, for example, if you start as China and have Stone with flat land nearby you could build Stonehenge and found religion right away. Or Great Pyramid and have some crazy builders.

These are not game-breaking but are quite powerful.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

They can't be too expensive - they are quite early unit and I believe we saw the number of turns required to build it, it wasn't large compared to other units. Also, if there are no limits, China ability requires only 2 Builders and 1 charge will be left, so it's pretty powerful. You could first build Builders and once you research tech - instabuild the Wonder.

I've missed videos I guess--does a "charge" cost a movement point? If so there are only so many you could blow in one turn considering 1UPT

 

[stealth_nsk]

I've missed videos I guess--does a "charge" cost a movement point? If so there are only so many you could blow in one turn considering 1UPT

Nice catch! Still, being able to build early Wonder in 6-7 turns could be considered "instant".

 

[Seek]

I've missed videos I guess--does a "charge" cost a movement point? If so there are only so many you could blow in one turn considering 1UPT

The wonder-rush does cost a movement point (or, more accurately, ends the builder's turn), and according to Arioch the builder costs 34 production.

In order to really maximize on this ability, one should accumulate 5-6 builders (depending on the city's production) with one charge left and spend them all on the same turn, allowing the city to complete it in on the following turn. That being said, seems like an unlikely situation and only viable for maybe one really critical wonder per game.

 

[stealth_nsk]

The wonder-rush does cost a movement point (or, more accurately, ends the builder's turn), and according to Arioch the builder costs 34 production.

In order to really maximize on this ability, one should accumulate 5-6 builders (depending on the city's production) with one charge left and spend them all on the same turn, allowing the city to complete it in on the following turn. That being said, seems like an unlikely situation and only viable for maybe one really critical wonder per game.

Using a builder with 1 charge left is another great idea. Even if you can't have full set for 1-turn completion, having 2-3 1-charge builders would speed up things significantly.

 

[Deggial]

Nice plan. Unless 'one acceleration/turn' is a hard-coded limit.
Which we don't know - but I would assume this might be an exploit(?) Firaxis foresaw and took anticipant countermeasure against.

(The question is of course: would it be an exploit or a cunning game tactic? Maybe the later. On the other hand, instant wonder-building seems quite "unrealistic" for me and it would additionally unbalance the chineese trait quite a bit.)

 

[xxhe]

The wonder-rush does cost a movement point (or, more accurately, ends the builder's turn), and according to Arioch the builder costs 34 production.

In order to really maximize on this ability, one should accumulate 5-6 builders (depending on the city's production) with one charge left and spend them all on the same turn, allowing the city to complete it in on the following turn. That being said, seems like an unlikely situation and only viable for maybe one really critical wonder per game.

1/4 charge of 34 production is 8.5.

For a wonder costs 57 production, 15% of the total production is 8.5

So rushing any wonder > 57 production will be a net gain of hammer for China. Sounds a bit OP to me.

 

[stealth_nsk]

1/4 charge of 34 production is 8.5.

For a wonder costs 57 production, 15% of the total production is 8.5

So rushing any wonder > 57 production will be a net gain of hammer for China. Sounds a bit OP to me.

It depends on a lot of things, whether it's OP or not. We'll have to wait and see how it all plays out.