[LP] Leader Pass Pack 3: Rulers of China (Jan. 2023) - Patch Notes Discussion

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'm pretty sure horses as a resource used to start on the map from the beginning. Later they were added to Animal Husbandry; from my memory to at least give the player a few turns before the barbarians had access to them?

Barbarians have always felt one step ahead of everyone else, considering they have always started with Spearman, and the naval ones with Quadriremes. I don't see horsemen and horse archers as anything different.

 

[Melkus]

Just (casually) watched a spectator game to see the state of the AI (slightly improved at best,at least they're building more units) and put Yongle in.

These games are usually pretty even (since the AIs basically play the same way).
But the snowball effect of his ability was just overwhelming. It was becoming noticable when his two central cities reached 10 (see graphs). He just took apart his neighbor Gorgo - the AI usually doesn't manage to take more than one city because the military logic sucks (bringing just one kind of unit, not concentrating forces etc.). It's not just the culture and science - don't forget his ability gifts him a few hundred extra gold per turn to play with from the mid game until his inevitable victory.

The Incans had a good game, starting behind a juicy mountain range - but no match for Yongle at all. (Turn times are irrelevant BTW, it was a quick game with slowed down science/culture (150%) - that's how I set up my own games)

On the other hand, I played one game as Yongle, experimenting with the projects (chopped myself to a Pantheon, that was a first) And Nature Loving Roosevelt just romped out of the fog - with classical Warrior Monks, never seen that, AND a Zeus army - and wiped the floor with me. Hilarious. So you are vulnerable at the start, but take over with little effort in the mid game if you survive in decent shape. Which is already what happens in most games, just more exaggerated...

Conclusion: Yongle is a more interesting addition as an AI-enemy to give yourself an extra challenge. The projects may be a fun way to play, but they seem almost irrelevant + situational compared to the big city bonus. Fair to say they didn't really think that through, I guess.

 

[Xandinho]

Finally a Chinese emperor from my favorite Chinese dynasty: Ming Dynasty, and with a very interesting ability. Yongle is definitely my favorite Chinese Civ6 leader.

While it's nice to have Wu Zetian, her ability is pretty meh. One more incentive for espionage, at least.

Qin's new ability is interesting, a good early game war booster. Also a good way to deal with those pesky late game barbarians that spawn near neighborhoods.

 

[Zaarin]

Barbarians have always felt one step ahead of everyone else, considering they have always started with Spearman, and the naval ones with Quadriremes. I don't see horsemen and horse archers as anything different.

I actually saw no Barbarian Quadriremes in my last game, surprisingly, though all my coastal cities were being blockaded with Barbarian Galleys. (Love the new profile pic BTW. )

Finally a Chinese emperor from my favorite Chinese dynasty: Ming Dynasty, and with a very interesting ability. Yongle is definitely my favorite Chinese Civ6 leader.

While it's nice to have Wu Zetian, her ability is pretty meh. One more incentive for espionage, at least.

I enjoy having Wu in-game as an AI civ because her model is definitely the best we've gotten since the GS leaders, but yeah, I'm not very tempted to play as her. Though Ming is not my favorite, I do agree it's nice to have someone new for China, and the Yongle Emperor was a great choice.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I actually saw no Barbarian Quadriremes in my last game, surprisingly, though all my coastal cities were being blockaded with Barbarian Galleys.

Yeah barb Quadriremes are rarer these days since Barbarian clans mode got rid of the bug that made barb Galleys unbuildable.

(Love the new profile pic BTW. )

I've been looking for one which depicts her meaner looking, but there aren't really that many out yet. When you google her it just goes to mostly the Civ 5 versions. Either way I've had Mansa Musa for about 3 years so I figured it was time for a change. And yes, she does have one of the best in game models too.

 

[IvoryPavane]

I think a great change for Wu Zetian would be to have her spies take no time to establish in a city. Her network of spies were ruthless and efficient so it would be thematically appropriate, and it would make her early spy game feel MUCH less slow.

And it still wouldn’t hold a candle to Yawngle in terms of output so I feel it’s a fair ask

 

[James_Champagne]

Right now I'm playing a game on Saph's recent TSL East Asia map, as Japan, mainly because I want to see what the AI does with the 3 new Chinese leaders. I'm in Medieval now and I can't say that I see Yongle snowballing: though because I have him AND Wu PLUS the new Qin in this one and they all started next to each other, it's possible that maybe they've mutually nullified each other (I also have zombie mode on because I wanted to see how Qin made use of that, though it's possible that maybe all those extra zombie units on the map is effecting the AI in a negative way). Will have to play further and see how things go down. I will say that the AI seems to be doing a better job of developing their luxuries.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think a great change for Wu Zetian would be to have her spies take no time to establish in a city. Her network of spies were ruthless and efficient so it would be thematically appropriate, and it would make her early spy game feel MUCH less slow.

And it still wouldn’t hold a candle to Yawngle in terms of output so I feel it’s a fair ask

I still believe she should have been more on the defensive/counterspying side of espionage to differentiate herself from Catherine. Putting spies in her cities could have given them more yields/amenities etc. I mean she even gets her first spy at Defensive Tactics. Oh well.

 

[Zaarin]

I was probably playing very suboptimally because my experience with the Yongle Emperor was that he was good but not super OP. I was not fully exploiting his projects to turn my cities into megacities, though, and my largest city when I won (Culture Victory) was ~25 pop, which I actually regard as a little low.

Right now I'm playing a game on Saph's recent TSL East Asia map, as Japan, mainly because I want to see what the AI does with the 3 new Chinese leaders. I'm in Medieval now and I can't say that I see Yongle snowballing: though because I have him AND Wu PLUS the new Qin in this one and they all started next to each other, it's possible that maybe they've mutually nullified each other (I also have zombie mode on because I wanted to see how Qin made use of that, though it's possible that maybe all those extra zombie units on the map is effecting the AI in a negative way). Will have to play further and see how things go down. I will say that the AI seems to be doing a better job of developing their luxuries.

Qin (Unifier) did poorly in my game. He grew Xi'an into a very decent city, but he never founded a second city even though he had plenty of room to expand in every direction except east (until Ba Trieu and I hemmed him in in the late game). Yongle and Wu both did very competently, but neither was really competing with Jayavarman or myself or even Tokugawa. I know there are a lot of variables, and I'd have to see them in more games before I made a confident statement about how the AI handles them--but from my single experience I'd say that, in the AI's hands, they're good but not super. Though China's civ bonus is just a good straightforward bonus for the AI to exploit, regardless of leader ability. (Poor Nader Shah started on a continent by himself so he got to play Persia the way I play Persia: with no LUA. He was still doing better than poor Qin and Gitarja and at least as well as Seondeok, who was having Genghis Khan problems.)

 

[Xandinho]

I enjoy having Wu in-game as an AI civ because her model is definitely the best we've gotten since the GS leaders, but yeah, I'm not very tempted to play as her.

Her model is really quite cool, but I still prefer her model from Civ5, in which she looks more glamorous.

 

[UWHabs]

I was probably playing very suboptimally because my experience with the Yongle Emperor was that he was good but not super OP. I was not fully exploiting his projects to turn my cities into megacities, though, and my largest city when I won (Culture Victory) was ~25 pop, which I actually regard as a little low.


Qin (Unifier) did poorly in my game. He grew Xi'an into a very decent city, but he never founded a second city even though he had plenty of room to expand in every direction except east (until Ba Trieu and I hemmed him in in the late game). Yongle and Wu both did very competently, but neither was really competing with Jayavarman or myself or even Tokugawa. I know there are a lot of variables, and I'd have to see them in more games before I made a confident statement about how the AI handles them--but from my single experience I'd say that, in the AI's hands, they're good but not super. Though China's civ bonus is just a good straightforward bonus for the AI to exploit, regardless of leader ability. (Poor Nader Shah started on a continent by himself so he got to play Persia the way I play Persia: with no LUA. He was still doing better than poor Qin and Gitarja and at least as well as Seondeok, who was having Genghis Khan problems.)

I started a game as Yongle, and it's a little wild. I'm in the mid-game, after a nice snowball and taking out France, and comfortably in 1st. Now, even without his ability, I would be well ahead in science and culture, but just for some numbers:
I am currently earning 258 science per turn. But running the numbers, I have 82 population in cities of size >=10, meaning I am gaining 82 science from his ability. That fully more than 30% of the science for my entire empire coming from his ability. Not to mention also getting 82 culture and 164 gold. And that's not counting the base yields, too. Those 82 population also get 0.5 science per pop from the base yield, which is another 42 science.

An empire with 2 universities that can research an unboosted modern era tech in 6 turns is a little crazy. I have other bonuses at play, but I'm at 352 culture per turn with literally only 2 theatre squares, one of which doesn't even have an amphitheatre, and the other is still a few turns away from finishing its 2nd tier building. (now, granted, Great Wall + Antanarivo + Kumasi will give anyone a lot of culture)

AI Qin I don't expect to really benefit from the ability, given that I feel the AI decision-making will be very poor in determining when to use the charge vs when not to. But AI Yongle I think is going to be a beast to deal with since their bonuses really will be easy for the AI.

 

[Zaarin]

Her model is really quite cool, but I still prefer her model from Civ5, in which she looks more glamorous.

She was 66 when she became empress so I like that they portrayed her as older, but I am a little disappointed that her face isn't painted, which was the custom of the period.

 

[MrRadar]

Monopolies Mode contains also another change - a huge boost for improvements and luxuries, plus Currency and Economics and are made "favored".
Luxuries from standard 1.5 to 100 (sic!), and Improvements from standard 3.0 to 10.0 - this is really huge. AI may start building just improvements. From my tests values at ~4-5 are enough.
I am not sure those change are necessary. The AI will build Industries, because this is what my mod already fixed. But I don't think that AI will build Corporations, because that is not covered by my mod (it needs core fix).
I am curious to see the results.
Also, "favored" flag for technologies does not work...

I've run a quick observed AI game with the M&C mode on, AI definitely improves resources and builds industries, multiple and varied industries even, but I've not noticed any corporations and the game was won rather early by RoughRider Teddy who got t160/330 CV.

I actually saw no Barbarian Quadriremes in my last game, surprisingly, though all my coastal cities were being blockaded with Barbarian Galleys.

I saw plenty of both: barb galleys and quads in the test game, so it seems there were no further changes on this front.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

I haven't played CdM in a while, so correct me if I'm wrong. You are granted an early Spy but not the ability to train Spy early, right? So if he is dead then that's it, you have to wait until Dip. Service?

 

[AntSou]

I haven't played CdM in a while, so correct me if I'm wrong. You are granted an early Spy but not the ability to train Spy early, right? So if he is dead then that's it, you have to wait until Dip. Service?

Yes, Kmart_Elvis already mentioned that happening to him.

Edit: sorry I misunderstood your post. I think the free spy is attached to Catherine, and the ability to construct a spy as Catherine is attached to Castles.

So if Wu Zetian can't, then that would mean only half of the above is set up. Might be intentional... probably not.

The in-game text for Catherine:

and Castles:

 

[fy00sh]

also no clue how CdM works but im playing a Wu game and if i recall correctly, after my first spy died to a 90% siphon funds mission i was able to start building a new spy before diplomatic service. will check in a few moments, as if im right then thats where i left my game off at

 

[fy00sh]

update: yep, you can rebuild spies even before diplomatic service as Wu. thats good

Spoiler the proof :

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I was probably playing very suboptimally because my experience with the Yongle Emperor was that he was good but not super OP. I was not fully exploiting his projects to turn my cities into megacities, though

Same. I was playing it fairly conventionally. I used Faith project to get the first pantheon (free settler), then I typically used one city to run faith for Monumentality while the others were building units or districts/buildings. I only started pumping food when my cities started closing in on 10 pop.

I did use Food project for a city I forward-settled to outrun the loyalty flip. That was nice.

I started using the Gold project when monumentality expired. I rarely had more than one city running a project at one time.

It was probably suboptimal, but I felt it was satisfying, gameplaywise.

I've started playing as Wu. It's okay. The problem with a Classical spy is that few of the AI cities had districts to target, other than a smattering of Campuses. (Com Hubs and Theater Sq.s are both Classical unlocks. Ind. Zones are medieval). And I was already ahead of them in tech, thanks to Mt. Roraima. I ended up stealing one tech eureka from Sumer, then took the promotion for assassinating governors and went hunting. The science and culture bonuses are puny. Typically, they don't even take off a whole turn of research for contemporary techs and civics.

I imagine that it is like Peter's leader ability, designed to help to catch up to a civ with a large tech or culture advantage, like Korea. If you are already in the lead, then you really just use +1 level spies to have a higher chance of success when annoying your neighbors (by assassinating their governors and what-not).

 

[Zaarin]

Same. I was playing it fairly conventionally. I used Faith project to get the first pantheon (free settler), then I typically used one city to run faith for Monumentality while the others were building units or districts/buildings. I only started pumping food when my cities started closing in on 10 pop.

I did use Food project for a city I forward-settled to outrun the loyalty flip. That was nice.

I started using the Gold project when monumentality expired. I rarely had more than one city running a project at one time.

It was probably suboptimal, but I felt it was satisfying, gameplaywise.

Yes, I also found Yongle's abilities more fun than superb. You used his projects more than I did, though. I used Faith and Food in the early game to grab an early pantheon and build up my capital, but then it was the late game before I started using the Faith and Food projects intermittently between wonders and districts.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I haven't played him yet but I wonder if Yongle could be a one city challenge civ.