China to rule under the waves.

[Timsup2nothin]

I refer you to Google there King Sarcasm, may it serve you well.

Google is a fine option. Or perhaps just asking someone who served in the US Navy submarine fleet thirty years ago could even produce some first hand experiential knowledge. What do you think boys and girls?

 

[Colonel]

Google is a fine option. Or perhaps just asking someone who served in the US Navy submarine fleet thirty years ago could even produce some first hand experiential knowledge. What do you think boys and girls?

If you have access to said person by all means, if its you i'd ask what your MOS (please specify the job not the number as they may have changed) was and if it is you I have one question, what possibly has made you doubt US superiority? Much less bought into this crack pipe dream of a Chinese sub capable of this

 

[Hygro]

Tone down the racism for a second, bro. The West is not the pinnacle of civilization and human achievement.

Demographics ≠ Racism

 

[kramerfan86]

He never said "the west would have figured this out first", he said more "advanced nations" would have. Nations more advanced than China and Russia IMO include countries like Japan and South Korea. You got so hopped up looking for racism you created a point that was never said then moaned about it.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If you have access to said person by all means, if its you i'd ask what your MOS (please specify the job not the number as they may have changed) was and if it is you I have one question, what possibly has made you doubt US superiority? Much less bought into this crack pipe dream of a Chinese sub capable of this

Well, if before you jumped in here to tell us mere boys and girls how the cows eat the cabbage you had done a little preliminary exploration of the thread with the possible intent of keeping your foot out of your mouth you would have seen that I haven't bought into any crack pipe dreams at all...not Chinese rocket subs, not magically powerful SOSUS arrays, not upcoming dates with porn stars any other dreams a crack pipe might be even more likely to induce in me.

I'm sure glad you let me off the hook on the actual MOS number by the way. Boy that would have caught me out and destroyed my credibility, since I would have to say "Gosh Colonel I never had an MOS."

As to my actual job I've spouted about it more than enough that I'm sure the regulars and even most passing lurkers are tired of hearing it, but it is pretty much all over this forum. I gave you the quote as a suggestion that you were running headlong into a noose that no doubt amused the lurkers no end. However just because you might have finally thought 'hey, know your opposition may be a good idea' doesn't mean I am obliged to provide you a shortcut to the knowledge.

 

[FriendlyFire]

It has nothing to do with race. It's about technical achievement level. And they are behind us.

The US has been slipping very slowly.
However any Chinese claims i would not put much worth in, the Chinese might have an experimental prototype and it might have worked in ideal lab conditions. But translating this into a working sub would be something else.
Look at the US Navy with its new combat ships, or new stealth fighters beset with problems. While China dose have 50% of US GDP its still very much in its infancy / backwards in regards to military tech.

 

[jackelgull]

Well, if before you jumped in here to tell us mere boys and girls how the cows eat the cabbage you had done a little preliminary exploration of the thread with the possible intent of keeping your foot out of your mouth you would have seen that I haven't bought into any crack pipe dreams at all...not Chinese rocket subs, not magically powerful SOSUS arrays, not upcoming dates with porn stars any other dreams a crack pipe might be even more likely to induce in me.

I'm sure glad you let me off the hook on the actual MOS number by the way. Boy that would have caught me out and destroyed my credibility, since I would have to say "Gosh Colonel I never had an MOS."

As to my actual job I've spouted about it more than enough that I'm sure the regulars and even most passing lurkers are tired of hearing it, but it is pretty much all over this forum. I gave you the quote as a suggestion that you were running headlong into a noose that no doubt amused the lurkers no end. However just because you might have finally thought 'hey, know your opposition may be a good idea' doesn't mean I am obliged to provide you a shortcut to the knowledge.

I think you've made the noose long enough to hang him on it, now if you keep dragging this out any longer it will become painful and no longer funny.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The US has been slipping very slowly.
However any Chinese claims i would not put much worth in, the Chinese might have an experimental prototype and it might have worked in ideal lab conditions. But translating this into a working sub would be something else.

And as I said on page one...that translating into a useful sub is something else yet again, even if they got it working. Anyone involved in submarine warfare would tell you that working towards a loud fast submarine propulsion system is going absolutely the wrong direction, no matter how fast this proposed monstrosity could go. Every function of a submarine is dependent on its ability to listen. How well do you think this thing can hear with a rocket up its butt?

 

[LoneRebel]

Even supercavitation torpedoes only reached around 400 km/h, and the Chinese seriously think they can build a supercavitation submarine that will reach 5800 km/h?

And this article was actually published in the South China Morning Post? Boy, that newspaper really is going the pro-Beijing toady path these days...

...Actually, upon looking at the article, it only says that a supercavitating vessel could reach 5800 km/h in theory. They're not actually saying that they think they can build a sub that can go that fast. I think. Because that would be a new level of delusional.

And of course, the obligatory angry Chinese nationalst/50-center post from the comments section:

It's funny watching white people writhe at the fact that the chinaman can do something they can't.

white people prospered during a time when killing other people was the only way of creating progress. now that we live in a global world of cooperation they don't know how to act.

Global world of cooperation, he says. "Cooperation" must be the Chinese word for pushing neighbors around.

 

[Kennigit]

CURE TO CANCER?

Small laboratory experiment shows we can cure cancer.

"We had great success in one trial, and I really think all we need to do from here is just learn how to kill cancer cells as they grow, without killing normal cells" remarked Lab Director Kennigit.

"The ideas are sound, but we still need to work out some kinks in the details. And I must stress, that although these results are very exciting, there still is quite a few finishing touches that need to be performed. However, moving forward, I can confidently say that today marked great progress"

 

[LoneRebel]

CURE TO CANCER?

Small laboratory experiment shows we can cure cancer.

"We had great success in one trial, and I really think all we need to do from here is just learn how to kill cancer cells as they grow, without killing normal cells" remarked Lab Director Kennigit.

"The ideas are sound, but we still need to work out some kinks in the details. And I must stress, that although these results are very exciting, there still is quite a few finishing touches that need to be performed. However, moving forward, I can confidently say that today marked great progress"

Bingo.

 

[Antilogic]

There goes the whole stealth thing. And if you do not have the advantage of being unseen, then why not build a really fast surface boat?

I'm not sold on the underwater rocket idea as usable for anything besides a fast torpedo.

Any military or technical experts want to tackle this?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Any military or technical experts want to tackle this?

Nothing to tackle. You're right, and I said so on the first page...and though I may not be a 'military or technical expert' I can speak as a veteran submariner.

The only technical aspect that could be put against your comment is that if someone actually perfected this cavitation principle for use underwater it could be faster than any current or even speculative surface ship technology. The surface is a much more chaotic environment so weird friction reduction concepts don't work so well there. Maybe some sort of gigantic and spectacularly powered hydrofoil scheme could get you a speed breakthrough...

The real issue I think is that for military purposes ships and submarines are already going about as fast as it is safe to go in the environment at hand. A ship smashing through swells generates tremendous forces on the hull, and some of those rise exponentially with speed. A submarine operates in a thin skin between the surface and their test depth, and is always operated with an eye towards loss of depth control. The faster it is going the more rapidly it will change depth, so they limit speed close to the surface or test depth and go to midway in between when they want to go fast...and I suspect that without significant improvement in depth capability they wouldn't want to go much faster than they currently can go. This 400 kph business...one tiny slip on the planes and it's either flying (not good) or below crush depth (worse).

 

[r16]

this thread is as good as any to ask this little thing . It appears there was even a wikipedia page for a "sound" that only the Russkies ever "heard" . Apparently out of the blue , the Russian submariners would be hearing "ducks" outside while sonar sweeps gave no returns and it was only in the Arctic and no where else . Thread relevancy ? Possibly none at all ...

 

[Borachio]

That's just quackers, it seems to me.

On the other hand, it could be some new kind of stealth technology.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

this thread is as good as any to ask this little thing . It appears there was even a wikipedia page for a "sound" that only the Russkies ever "heard" . Apparently out of the blue , the Russian submariners would be hearing "ducks" outside while sonar sweeps gave no returns and it was only in the Arctic and no where else . Thread relevancy ? Possibly none at all ...

First off, any story that features submarines and 'sonar sweeps' is immediately suspect. I think I gave a pretty good analogy of submarine warfare in this post, and if you look at it you can imagine what a submariner would say to 'I think I hear ducks, turn on the active sonar and announce our location to everyone within five hundred kilometers.

Now, passive sonar, which just listens really really hard, can pick up some bizarre stuff. There are all kinds of fish in the sea, and almost all of them make noise. The sonar clicks of whales and dolphins and such can be heard from a long way with sufficient amplification. Shrimp make noise. Crabs make noise. A swimming fish beats a rhythm int the water with its tail. In the arctic ice makes popping noises all the time, with big banging when it really breaks and splashes when chunks fall in and giant whooshings when an iceberg rolls a little bit. Surf pounds on beaches. Sorting through all this highly amplified white noise is a task. If a sonarman starts hearing ducks I probably tell him to get some rest.

I'd be interested in reading the story though, if you run into it again grab a link or make a note of the wikipage.

 

[r16]

oh my God , there is a conspiracy Wikipedia ... But it seems to contain the whole page from the "legit Wiki".

edit : Was it ever possible to know which Russian boats had orders to close in as in the first strike case instead of patrolling as a MAD thing ?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Oooooohkay!

Good to know the Soviets had their share of tin foil hatters.

During the cold war there is nothing that would have made a Russian ballistic missile sub turn on active sonar. I mean nothing. So the whole 'all these subs reported it and the investigation has been hidden away that's why we can't find it' bit is built on an absurd anecdote.

The whole 'advanced technology' section of the possible explanations is patently absurd as well, though they at least get around to saying so. But the idea that anyone in the Soviet submarine forces would give credence for even a second to any of that part, much less investigate it and decide that wasn't it...no deal. Every idea there would have been dismissed out of hand before anyone even suggested it.

Sorry to rain on an entertaining story...but way too many holes. If there were even any actual submariners involved in creating it I'd be surprised.

 

[r16]

playing the devil's advocate . Wouldn't you just send up half a dozen Alphas to the "contact area" after the second or third contact ? Me being a guy who read Hunt for the Red October (?) by the end of high school some 20 odd years ago , sonars must be a very polite way of saying go away or something ...

 

[Timsup2nothin]

During the cold war every submarine, on both sides, was pretty busy, so sending a half dozen alphas after quackers would have been beyond extreme on the part of the Soviet command I think.

Plus, while the combat engagements in HFRO were very well written and probably accurate enough predictors of how a real engagement could go...no real engagements happened. So, literally, no active sonar happened. We had a regularly scheduled maintenance item that required firing off one ping of active sonar, more or less just to make sure it worked. We only did the maintenance in port, and other than that my boat never released an active ping in my entire career. I never met anyone (and submariners are a tight community) who came from a ship that ever did either. And I never met a sonarman who claimed to have heard a soviet boat go active.

If you go active it is a ranging ping to get an absolute lock on someone you are totally committed to firing on, and within seconds of the echo returning to the boat you have indeed fired and you are running like mad to get away from the location you just announced to the world.

That part of the story is just a monstrous hole that nothing can fill. It's like starting a UFO story with 'a pilot saw it while hovering in a 747 waiting to land'.