madscientist
RPC Supergenius
Again, I think churchhill's best tech order is BW, hunting, archery. Do not waste hammers on warriors except for exploration. Took alot of starts for me until i got it right.
Churchill Opening
- Thread starter budweiser
- Start date
slobberinbear
Ursine Skald
No question bronze working is one of the best multipurpose techs in the early game.
If you have a Churchill start that would reward early BW (i.e., lots of trees, nothing to mine that isn't forested, you suspect nearby copper, etc.), then by all means, take it and if you get lucky and find copper nearby, so much the better. On the other hand, if you get a seafood start, you're probably going to build a workboat first, so BW can wait a little ... because you won't be able to chop anyway, since you won't have a worker.
So ... some suggestions:
* Seafood start: build workboat(s), research hunting and archery first, then BW
* Forest start: build worker, research bronze working first, then hunting & archery
* Floodplains start: build worker, research agriculture (or hunting --> AH) first, depending on nearby resources
I am merely making the point that it's hard to work in hunting and archery anywhere, and if you can work it in early, so much the better. Since Churchill is protective, it would be a waste for him not to get maximum mileage out of one of his abilities. Yes, having BW makes a lot of things possible, but you can delay having slavery for 10-20 turns at the start of the game.
My last point is that hunting is a useful tech in itself and is ridiculously cheap. It unlocks spears and scouts and allows you to build camps for furs, ivory, and deer.
slobberinbear
Ursine Skald
This is so true. Warriors are worthless except as explorers and garrison units for interior cities. A warrior fortified in a hill city is still going to lose most of the time to a barb archer. Even in the superearly game, the animals can kill warriors pretty easily, especially multiple fast-movers like wolves and panthers. I can't tell you how many times under BtS my warrior+settler has been wiped out by a barb animal.
This is another reason to get archery earlier. A base protective (CG I / Drill I) archer, without a barracks, is barbarian-proof unless he's in the open against a barb axeman. Yeah, they're a few more hammers than warriors, but they rarely die and they'll last you the whole game, upgraded to other units.
I try to build no more than 1 or 2 warriors in any game.
You can time the worker to finish right when BW is done (well, so long as BW finishes no later than one turn after your worker is done you'll be fine, and even then you can move your worker to a forest that takes two turns to reach). Not to mention that multiple seafood starts really favor BW; I want to be working my badass seafood tiles all the time instead of working forested plains hills or whatever so it's good to have the worker chop out the boats instead of tile-juggling.
slobberinbear
Ursine Skald
The point is to get hunting and archery (both cheap techs -- 100 beakers for both, compared to 120 for BW) out of the way fast so that you can start making cheap military units that are actually effective. This also gives you the benefit of being able to build a workboat first and grow your city, without having to build a worker first. Let's compare:
Option 1: workboat and archery first
Build city. start building workboat working a
tile. research hunting and archery. boat finishes. work the seafood tile, build worker and research BW. worker finishes, starts chopping boat 2. City is size 2 with a worker and a fishing boat.Option 2: worker and BW first
Build city. start building worker with best
or tile. research BW. worker finishes and starts chopping boat. research hunting and archery. boat finishes and improves seafood tile. city is likely still size 1 or has just hit size 2. By the time each option is done, there is a worker and a work boat. Option 1 is superior, as the city is size 2 longer and the seafood tile is worked sooner, resulting in more food and commerce coming in. Option 1 also gives your worker more options when he is first built, allowing him to either chop, mine, or build a camp.
I also point out that the city hasn't lost any significant Slavery opportunities. Under Option 2, slavery couldn't be used until the very end of the comparison anyway, when it just hit size 2.
Again: I'm not saying BW sucks. I'm merely saying that it doesn't have to be the first tech out of the gate in every situation.
Anyways, let's do a test:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/78167/test_BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave
I figure this is a decent start which one can find in a typical game. Especially with a plains hill, which would help workboat first. Worker first doesn't matter whether it's plains hill/plains forest/grassland forest/grassland hill.
Going hunting/archery, this is what I get circa 2480 B.C.
Going BW first, this is what I get circa 2480:
Compared to hunting/archery, I have both corns farmed, a settler out 4 turns faster (difference would be greater if I had it go to size 4 and had it work two corn + two seafood); a second mine going up and with AH showing horses, I don't even need archery until medieval. In addition, looking at the plains right next to London, I KNOW it will have iron for me. The fat cross mechanics are such that if everything else in the capital is forest/sea/resource/floodplains, normal looking tiles will have bronze/horses/iron.
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
Nice example, what exactly were the tech paths? I see you have agriculture which Churchill doesn't start with. Strictly talking Churchill, BW is the way to start for exactly the reason you show, faster production. Now this is a rare example of a Churchhill start in regards to you know that the plains will have iron (I agree with you), most of the time Winston will not have them in the BFC. So let's assume no iron in that spot, you can settle the horse city with garrison warriors and use chariots for protection, not bad. But if you go for hunting and archery after BW you will be producing superior troops and utilizing Church's traits. Also I assumed you went AH after Agri if you did BW/hunting/archery/agri, then AH would tech faster than just BW/Agr/AH. Splitting hairs but getting archery early is pretty darned important for Churchhill, but I 100% agree getting BW first (assuming you have a forrest in the capital).
#1 was hunting/archery/bronzeworking
#2 was bronzeworking farming/ah. The beaker discount is nice but it's not gamebreaking. Hunting before AH would be cool if there were any camp resources nearby, but I didn't see any, so it actually slows down my economic development.
I will be producing superior troops? I don't think there's a humongous difference between chariots and archers; they'll both kill warriors and chariots are better at dealing with axes. Barbarian swordsmen come a long time later so I dont' even worry about those. But yea, I suppose if I get that Attila event that spawn horse archers I'll have to get hunting.
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
I see your points but you still need the Wheel and you need to hook the horses up, while you can be putting out well promoted easy archers. Another point is you must have been cracking the whip quite a bit (not a bad thing) based on teh sie of London with all that food.
budweiser
King of the Beers
That's a game winning start right there no matter what. Almost no need to play that one out. Hehe
Well I want wheel anyways for pottery right? And I didn't crack the whip at all (which would have benefited the BW start even more).
Hehe. It was the first start I could get with a plains hill in the fat cross, so I could give some help to workboat first
slobberinbear
Ursine Skald
Thanks for taking the time to put up your saved post. It does appear that in your BW version, with earlier whipping and farming, pulls ahead.
However, if you had archery, you could be making essentially bulletproof units ASAP, without settling the horse city and hooking up the pasture. No settler + warrior escorts killed by animals, etc. You also have one of the best fog-busting picket units out there, especially parked on a hill with the guerilla promotion.
No question early worker + something useful for worker to do = good times. I suppose I'm willing to "gimp" my economy by four turns in order to have some immediate defense and utilize my leader's traits to the fullest.
I agree with Bud, too ... nice starting location. I'd be curious if the results were different with no corn (more trees seems to be the norm, although we didn't see your pre-chop map).
However, if you had archery, you could be making essentially bulletproof units ASAP, without settling the horse city and hooking up the pasture. No settler + warrior escorts killed by animals, etc. You also have one of the best fog-busting picket units out there, especially parked on a hill with the guerilla promotion.
No question early worker + something useful for worker to do = good times. I suppose I'm willing to "gimp" my economy by four turns in order to have some immediate defense and utilize my leader's traits to the fullest.
I agree with Bud, too ... nice starting location. I'd be curious if the results were different with no corn (more trees seems to be the norm, although we didn't see your pre-chop map).
vicawoo
Chieftain
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2007
- Messages
- 3,226
That's a crazy start, especially since you start with fishing.
I don't worry that much about barbarians unless it's raging. Most other leaders wouldn't research archery and still deal with barbs, so I don't see why a protective would be worse off. And you still have to research bronze working anyway, whereas you can delay hunting/archery for a long time.
Researching archery earlier: advantage safer. Question is how much safer.
If there's an amazing way to leverage your safe archers, like if you play always war, or if you want to engage in lots of worker stealing, then it can give you a bigger advantage. But in the long run, it's an economic disadvantage.
I don't worry that much about barbarians unless it's raging. Most other leaders wouldn't research archery and still deal with barbs, so I don't see why a protective would be worse off. And you still have to research bronze working anyway, whereas you can delay hunting/archery for a long time.
Researching archery earlier: advantage safer. Question is how much safer.
If there's an amazing way to leverage your safe archers, like if you play always war, or if you want to engage in lots of worker stealing, then it can give you a bigger advantage. But in the long run, it's an economic disadvantage.
