Kesler
Master Kekkler
Yes, I am.
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Cities in Development (Obsolete)
- Thread starter JFD
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Yes, I am.
JFD
Kathigitarkh
By improving the TP>Village>Town system I more meant in dealing with the fact that they're forgettable - not sure if there is much I can do about that, however. I'll think.
Citizens get angry because they exist and Firaxis are the biggest nihilists in the gaming industry. Happiness is just a translation of an existing mechanic, so you can't appease them - only distract them with extra Happiness.
Well, what was your excess disease like?
A siege should decrease city health, because enemy units may pillage health tiles or block you from working rivers - which are a primary source of Health (to the systems detriment albeit).
Heh, that's your Bombard Range (hovering over it will tell you exactly that). It's not a bug - it's there to help you know the range of enemy cities. Province icon should be next to it.
Yup, E&D.
From the looks of it, EUI comp files aren't working. I'm not going to take much responsibility for EUI support anymore, and after the strain of times past I hope you understand why. But like I've said, if it doesn't appear to be working, delete cache and always deselect CID/RTP before re-enabling CID/RTP, then enable the Comp. Files.
Yup, Kesler is. Generally, I'm not going to do anything about supporting that mod, seeing as Sovereignty will obsolete it (and block it).
Klisz
King
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2014
- Messages
- 804
Probably the cause then. I know that with CNMP + InfoAddict at least, the tooltip over a civ in the Global Relations screen displays that (the name given to the city-state allies varies on policies as well; "puppets" is one possibility, and I've also seen e.g. "vassals" or "associated states").
Kesler
Master Kekkler
I'll ponder the idea myself. Is there anyway Sov can interact with them? (Ignore what I said about self sufficiency earlier
)And we wonder why Firaxis never bothers to contact your guys. Local Happiness seems a bit random, just because it's not clear what causes it or what makes it go away. Building Happiness buildings does work. I guess your an advocate for Soma Tablets?
My excess disease was a range between 0.4 and 2 (I rushed some Herbalists to try and cure my city before the Plague struck, to no luck). Now I think I'm in the green.
Ah, that makes sense. Is this just with an Aqueduct? Before I got one, all tiles next to a river didn't indicate that they provided health.
I thought that might be the case. Just a little ugly :3 But I guess that's the price for knowing the truth...
Heh, I thought you had already abandoned support. I remember once (6 months ago) when you were quite positive about the usage of EUI. How the times have changed... I do understand why tho, both out of your own personal preference and the coding problems it carries. Your no doubt tired of debugging that.
It's only temporary until Sov is released. The math behind the title generation for CN by P gets screwy if you invest a policy in many different trees.
JFD
Kathigitarkh
1. Sov will certainly - yields, or upgrade times.
2. Because they know we'll put them out of a job? There are two sources of Local Happiness: Buildings (the vanilla source) and a partition of Global Happiness (added by this mechanic) - this is Global Happiness divided by the number of cities. Perhaps that's what's unclear?
3. Hm. Well, I did say Health would need quite a bit of balancing
4. Yup, just the Aqueduct.
5.
Do you find them useless? I can add an option to disable them, but only if you'd use it.
6. No - you just mistake my rants for anything more than rants EUI support - and a bit of CBP - has aged me, modding-wise. In modding years, I am 105.
7. Fair enough. But you'll have to suffer in the meantime
2. Because they know we'll put them out of a job?
There are two sources of Local Happiness: Buildings (the vanilla source) and a partition of Global Happiness (added by this mechanic) - this is Global Happiness divided by the number of cities. Perhaps that's what's unclear?3. Hm. Well, I did say Health would need quite a bit of balancing
4. Yup, just the Aqueduct.
5.
Do you find them useless? I can add an option to disable them, but only if you'd use it.6. No - you just mistake my rants for anything more than rants
EUI support - and a bit of CBP - has aged me, modding-wise. In modding years, I am 105.7. Fair enough. But you'll have to suffer in the meantime
DarthStarkiller
King
Kesler
Master Kekkler
2. Bah, I can't math at this hour. It makes sense, I'll just have to double check it in game.
3. I'll see if I can make it to the Modern Era tomorrow to test health, but no promises.
5. Not useless, just ugly. I'd much rather see the symbols for what level of province it is. It's still good to have some indication, I just like mine slightly flavored
6. I can only imagine what the news of Jan retiring from art would do to that age.
7. Have I not suffered enough?!
Well, if your using ExCE, you can write off any custom Civ not made by JFD :3
3. I'll see if I can make it to the Modern Era tomorrow to test health, but no promises.
5. Not useless, just ugly. I'd much rather see the symbols for what level of province it is. It's still good to have some indication, I just like mine slightly flavored
6. I can only imagine what the news of Jan retiring from art would do to that age.
7. Have I not suffered enough?!
Spoiler :
Well, if your using ExCE, you can write off any custom Civ not made by JFD :3
JFD
Kathigitarkh
Ok, obsoleted is probably a bit hubristic. I mean incompatible/not support, as my mods do (or will do) essentially the same thing but in light of other systems.
So, probably Health & Plague, Civ Names by Policies, Militia Defense, Slavery (sorry Emp. Leugi
), anything made by Pouakai - that's all specifically that I can think of anyway. Things that add Colonies, Scout upgrades, etc. shouldn't be used. Use discretion and common sense.
DarthStarkiller
King
Ok, obsoleted is probably a bit hubristic. I mean incompatible/not support, as my mods do (or will do) essentially the same thing but in light of other systems.
So, probably Health & Plague, Civ Names by Policies, Militia Defense, Slavery (sorry Emp. Leugi
I was thinking more of small stuff, mostly quality of life mods, that become unnecessary by using your mods (or having to use CP because of your mods), like Granary includes Bison and Mint includes Copper. By the way, I suppose CulDiv doesn't obsolete anything?
JFD
Kathigitarkh
Oh yea, those are good examples. Dunno what else - if anything. CulDiv doesn't really change much, so no, it wouldn't obsolete anything (unless there are other mods out there that give starting bonuses, but I've heard of none). Obviously, Ethnic Unts/R.E.D. can't be used with CulDiv's graphics component, but which to use comes down to hollandaise. Sorry, I meant taste.
I rotate my modding, so atm I'm focusing on Sovereignty. Once I burn out from that, I'll shift back to CID (or wrap up Tribes first) and take a serious look at Health's balance. In the meantime, the more reports on your XPs with Health, Disease, Plagues, the better.
I rotate my modding, so atm I'm focusing on Sovereignty. Once I burn out from that, I'll shift back to CID (or wrap up Tribes first) and take a serious look at Health's balance. In the meantime, the more reports on your XPs with Health, Disease, Plagues, the better.
Chrisy15
Flower, Beautiful
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2015
- Messages
- 2,137
A couple of questions I have for you (to answer/investigate/ignore at your mortal peril):
--Do you find the lack of Production on the Palace, and consequently the initially long turn times, too cognitively dissonant?
--Do you find Disease from Trade Routes a concern? (they should be)
--Does the one Disease event I added (will add more later) trigger? Crimes events?
--Is siege devastating to a city's Health (it should be; when units stamp on your rivers)?
--Do you find your units contracting Plague from combat?
--Turn times ok? There will be some slow down with so much going on, but is it bearable?
--Thoughts on improving the quality of the TP>Village>Town 'system'? I feel like it's underused, perhaps because of its poor implementation.
--I need more info on Disloyalty from War Score - your war score, number of wars, the Loyalty penalty.
--How are Provinces without Improvement requirement?
I'll have to give some more thought to the Aqueduct problem. Ideas welcome, though, but as said, removing the river health is not ideal.
Now leave me alone because I'm doing as much as Sovereignty as my volition allows
Notes from a v30 snowball game:
1. It's daunting to begin with ("20 turns for a shrine! 33 for a worker!), but after that it isn't noticeable. The AI might be having trouble at the moment because the latest CP beta has set all their happinesses to 0 :/
2. Wait, disease travels through trade routes...
3. I don't think I've seen either, although in this game Crime want particularly impacting.
4. Dunno - would imagine so, though
5. I got a notification saying that disease had been transferred, but the unit in concern had died, so...
6. On smaller maps, yeah. It does slow a bit in Standard games, though.
7. Easiest way would be to improve yields, but I don't know what to change them to. I'm sure Sovereignty will improve them (right..?)
8. No idea
9. N/A
@Kesler
Remove the CityBannerManager files from the CP, and clear cache.
[Edit] Missed a page of text :/ Ignore my sovereignty point.
JFD
Kathigitarkh
W-wait - what? They have?
Chrisy15
Flower, Beautiful
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2015
- Messages
- 2,137
Ravellion
Prince
I have played a game till the industrial era with this and RtP active, as well as enlightenment era. I think the last might still have caused me to not be able to build manors (as I had fulfilled all the requirements for upgrading).
I have some criticism, and I hope that it is constructive. I will preface my feedback by stating that it might simply be that this mod is not for me.
Happiness to production: The first turn I wanted to build a scout and immediately noticed the long build times due to lack of production from the palace and it seemed to be that a scout would take something like 15 turns to build. Of course, then it actually was there in 4 turns or so because of happiness being added to production. I adapted to this knowledge and focused heavily on happiness (didn't get the Notre dame or Taj Mahal though, sadly). Still, having 20 happiness for most of the game from the late classical age onwards made it so that new cities built starting infrastructure really quickly, and even my capital built stuff way faster than it indicates on the city screen when you select a new building or unit for the city to construct. This is incredibly counterintuitive (the UI is useless) and completely works counter to several game concepts, as you do not need to focus on production at all (I had a very productive 1 tile island city which I built to grab a luxury), and it is also way more efficient to buy the loyalty of a mercantile city state or buying a luxury from an opposing civ than it is to spend money rushing things (unless you really need something this turn; which is hardly ever). It also devalues liberty, as getting a worker and settler built quickly is easy, and +1 production is nothing compared to the enormous benefits of monarchy.
Crime: Crime has virtually no meaningful effect on the game. Building a jail in a city of 10 pop is practically useless: I only gained about 0.2 to 0.4 per yield (science, food, production) while the jail does take a few turns to build and costs maintenance. Additionally, as production (and money, to a lesser extent) is devalued because of the impact of positive happiness, it matters little what you lose on those yields. On top of that it seemed to me to be overly complicated because of how it is split into so many categories, and lots of buildings add or reduce 10% here and there.
Health: As I had a flood plain capital, I noticed the effect of unhealthiness constantly and had several plagues. Then I built an aqueduct and the health problems were over. Cities not near rivers kept some health problems, but nothing too serious. It added some flavour to the game though.
Other local stuffLocal unhappiness is untransparent. My capital constantly switched from neutral to allegiant in the early game, which seemed very weird to me, as often nothing significant had changed in my civilization. It is an interesting mechanic for cities that were captured though, but it made it so that I rather raised cities and rebuilt them from the ground up to save myself the hassle. Still, a captured enemy capital proved to be manageable enough, while it definitely was something to take into account. The consequences are serious but also fun to deal with (rebels!). The empire I was warring with collapsed entirely after I captured half of its cities, which seemed realistic and cool. A positive for me.
TL;DR: Happiness to production devalues choice and does not integrate well with the UI. Health is flavourful but does not have major impact, but is still worth fighting with buildings etc. Crime has virtually no impact whatsoever, even to the point that it often doesn't even seem worth it to build crime fighting buildings. Allegiance is fun.
Suggestions: I would suggest converting happiness to money instead, or changing it to a % production bonus (so production tiles still matter), capping out at +20% production. Add a little oomph to crime, possibly by simplifying it to affecting only two or three yields but increasing the impact it has one those (I'd suggest food, production and money). Make health a more exponential thing, so that it remains a problem in the middle ages while not only hurting the flood plain civs to start with. Hurt cities without access to fresh water more.
I have some criticism, and I hope that it is constructive. I will preface my feedback by stating that it might simply be that this mod is not for me.
Happiness to production: The first turn I wanted to build a scout and immediately noticed the long build times due to lack of production from the palace and it seemed to be that a scout would take something like 15 turns to build. Of course, then it actually was there in 4 turns or so because of happiness being added to production. I adapted to this knowledge and focused heavily on happiness (didn't get the Notre dame or Taj Mahal though, sadly). Still, having 20 happiness for most of the game from the late classical age onwards made it so that new cities built starting infrastructure really quickly, and even my capital built stuff way faster than it indicates on the city screen when you select a new building or unit for the city to construct. This is incredibly counterintuitive (the UI is useless) and completely works counter to several game concepts, as you do not need to focus on production at all (I had a very productive 1 tile island city which I built to grab a luxury), and it is also way more efficient to buy the loyalty of a mercantile city state or buying a luxury from an opposing civ than it is to spend money rushing things (unless you really need something this turn; which is hardly ever). It also devalues liberty, as getting a worker and settler built quickly is easy, and +1 production is nothing compared to the enormous benefits of monarchy.
Crime: Crime has virtually no meaningful effect on the game. Building a jail in a city of 10 pop is practically useless: I only gained about 0.2 to 0.4 per yield (science, food, production) while the jail does take a few turns to build and costs maintenance. Additionally, as production (and money, to a lesser extent) is devalued because of the impact of positive happiness, it matters little what you lose on those yields. On top of that it seemed to me to be overly complicated because of how it is split into so many categories, and lots of buildings add or reduce 10% here and there.
Health: As I had a flood plain capital, I noticed the effect of unhealthiness constantly and had several plagues. Then I built an aqueduct and the health problems were over. Cities not near rivers kept some health problems, but nothing too serious. It added some flavour to the game though.
Other local stuffLocal unhappiness is untransparent. My capital constantly switched from neutral to allegiant in the early game, which seemed very weird to me, as often nothing significant had changed in my civilization. It is an interesting mechanic for cities that were captured though, but it made it so that I rather raised cities and rebuilt them from the ground up to save myself the hassle. Still, a captured enemy capital proved to be manageable enough, while it definitely was something to take into account. The consequences are serious but also fun to deal with (rebels!). The empire I was warring with collapsed entirely after I captured half of its cities, which seemed realistic and cool. A positive for me.
TL;DR: Happiness to production devalues choice and does not integrate well with the UI. Health is flavourful but does not have major impact, but is still worth fighting with buildings etc. Crime has virtually no impact whatsoever, even to the point that it often doesn't even seem worth it to build crime fighting buildings. Allegiance is fun.
Suggestions: I would suggest converting happiness to money instead, or changing it to a % production bonus (so production tiles still matter), capping out at +20% production. Add a little oomph to crime, possibly by simplifying it to affecting only two or three yields but increasing the impact it has one those (I'd suggest food, production and money). Make health a more exponential thing, so that it remains a problem in the middle ages while not only hurting the flood plain civs to start with. Hurt cities without access to fresh water more.
A couple of questions I have for you (to answer/investigate/ignore at your mortal peril):
--Do you find the lack of Production on the Palace, and consequently the initially long turn times, too cognitively dissonant?
--Do you find Disease from Trade Routes a concern? (they should be)
--Does the one Disease event I added (will add more later) trigger? Crimes events?
--Is siege devastating to a city's Health (it should be; when units stamp on your rivers)?
--Do you find your units contracting Plague from combat?
--Turn times ok? There will be some slow down with so much going on, but is it bearable?
--Thoughts on improving the quality of the TP>Village>Town 'system'? I feel like it's underused, perhaps because of its poor implementation.
--I need more info on Disloyalty from War Score - your war score, number of wars, the Loyalty penalty.
--How are Provinces without Improvement requirement?
I'll have to give some more thought to the Aqueduct problem. Ideas welcome, though, but as said, removing the river health is not ideal.
Now leave me alone because I'm doing as much as Sovereignty as my volition allows
From my exp. playing till v30 & earlier CP beta:
1]Aftermath of lack of prod. is less but can still be serious in some cases.
2]Depeds on whether the city has buildings like apothecary. Cities w/o rivers and in jungle vicinity are drastically affected losing upto 2-3 pop. btw.
3] Disease events triggered multiple times in my last game.
4]Don't know. Out of 3 games ,was aggressor in 2 and slightly isolated in 3rd, so was never besieged.
5]Sadly i didn't know about this and didn't observe either, sorry.
6]Get slow after Renaissance era on standard speed/huge map .
7]You could possibly improve yields i guess.
8] Haven't got negative war score yet in 3 games.Only lopsided war was a bribed one {by Hannibal AI}against Alexander. But as alex was already being
ed by hannibal, my side saw little battle.9]Till my 3rd game, had no idea about how to upgrade provinces. I upgraded some with G.Magistrate,which i hope is the correct way.{wasn't able to create enough G.ppl in previous 2 games}
Adding some notes {if you son't mind}:
1)Levy system didn't trigger in older versions but worked properly with v30.
2)About your previous query regards to Leo Workshop/Pont du gard wonders , bots are building them properly. In fact, leo seems to a favorite among bots.
3] Had a lot of struggle with Disease for cities with only a few jungle tiles.Kept creeping up even after building proper buildings. Some early wonders give excellent defence against it {TOA,AWat,HGardens} but can be difficult to grab. Could you possibly give some advice for pedro/monty players?? Atleast monty has floating gardens.
4]AI seems to be oblivious to city based unhappiness. In game 1, Djoser's lone city flipped to barbarians, in game 3 some some 4(of 7) of tigranes' cities suddenly went to alexander & turns later again to armenia.
Although may not be much of a concern, but i haven't been able to found cities with colonists{huge earth map} simply due to the lack of decent land as bots had settled most of the map by navigation & still continue to do so after that.
Kesler
Master Kekkler
Im afraid that the error I mentioned before, the Contracts one, has persisted, and using IGE saves no longer fix the problem. Did you manage to find anything in the logs regarding this?
Sorry for back-2-back posts, but i forgot to mention that loading a save causes an error with the overhead interface. When i hover above the various icons for additional info it only displays 'Brief description' rather than the usual golden age points/turns for next policy etc.
Also is there anything wrong with the overhead interface posted in image of post #1245 on page 63 of this thread, or is it exactly how it should look?
Note :This is for v30 CID. Don't know if corrected with v31.
Also is there anything wrong with the overhead interface posted in image of post #1245 on page 63 of this thread, or is it exactly how it should look?
Note :This is for v30 CID. Don't know if corrected with v31.
Skaz881
History Major
Using RTP and the latest version of CID together with the CBP is creating an error when I try to choose production for my city:
I'm not sure why they would suddenly produce this error when previously they worked fine together.
Code:
[379180.375] Runtime Error: Failed to iterate table due to query error. Check Database.log for more details.
[379183.484] Runtime Error: Failed to iterate table due to query error. Check Database.log for more details.
[379185.140] Runtime Error: Failed to iterate table due to query error. Check Database.log for more details.
[379187.921] Runtime Error: Failed to iterate table due to query error. Check Database.log for more details.
Code:
[379074.406] no such column: Type
[379074.406] In Query - select * from Natural_Wonder_Placement where Type = ? LIMIT 1
[379180.375] no such column: IsLoyalty
[379180.375] In Query - select * from Building_JFD_CrimeMods where IsLoyalty = 1 AND CrimeType = 'CRIME_JFD_CULTURE'
[379183.484] no such column: IsLoyalty
[379183.484] In Query - select * from Building_JFD_CrimeMods where IsLoyalty = 1 AND CrimeType = 'CRIME_JFD_CULTURE'
[379185.140] no such column: IsLoyalty
[379185.140] In Query - select * from Building_JFD_CrimeMods where IsLoyalty = 1 AND CrimeType = 'CRIME_JFD_CULTURE'
[379187.921] no such column: IsLoyalty
[379187.921] In Query - select * from Building_JFD_CrimeMods where IsLoyalty = 1 AND CrimeType = 'CRIME_JFD_CULTURE'I'm not sure why they would suddenly produce this error when previously they worked fine together.
Yup, my bad. Will fix tomorrow. Sorry. In the meantime, think of that Citizen as an Undead from Akidor. They aren't really Citizens; they work, but they work for each other. Kind of like slavery but with extra ste--whoops, almost said it
Lol. Alrighty then.
Btw, I'm using Quick Turns v. 10 with all of your mods, and it seems to be perfectly compatible. I haven't run into any problems so far. It's a really nice mod to have.
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