sss64sss
Warlord
So, I hadn't gotten a chance to play civ for a bit, and I just downloaded the most recent versions of CID and RtP. Was it the most recent beta of the CP I need? Or the main version?
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Cities in Development (Obsolete)
- Thread starter JFD
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Wario Mario
Warlord
The beta.
Well, I have found out that treason is not a big problem so far.
Still, and basing this in my latest game, I think that the village/town need to upgrade a province should be taken out, because it's impossible to have a mansion with CBP (and that is really important for culture victory focus or pure science focus civs, player included, that are often in war with the warmongering neighbors and need the militia and plus range in city attack). Even more, if one place a city in a little island of the exes surrounded by sea luxuries and fish.
Still, and basing this in my latest game, I think that the village/town need to upgrade a province should be taken out, because it's impossible to have a mansion with CBP (and that is really important for culture victory focus or pure science focus civs, player included, that are often in war with the warmongering neighbors and need the militia and plus range in city attack). Even more, if one place a city in a little island of the exes surrounded by sea luxuries and fish.
Venice Merchant
Chieftain
I agree, plus you cant build villages adjacent to each other which is making 5 of them rarely possible.
Skaz881
History Major
Huh, no wonder I was falling so far behind in my last game.......guess I'll try CBP Warlord instead. On an unrelated note, I'm worried that jungle starts are getting the short end of the stick when it comes to plague since jungle gives disease.
Revolutionist_8
King
Actually in CBP the difficulty levels are a bit different. In Vanilla, it looked like this: below prince you get bonuses, prince no bonuses, above prince the AI gets bonuses.
Bonuses were: instant techs and units from the beginning, plus production / science / gold discounts on basically everything.
In CBP (maybe with CP too, lord G knows better) it's something like this: AI don't get bonuses from the start (maybe some units, and in Deity a settler), but from time-to-time they get instant boosts to yields (maybe when advancing to next era, I'm not sure).
The result is that even if you're playing good, the AIs can back to their feet, and the whole gameplay feels much solid and balanced. You don't have to catch up from the beginning, the AI doesn't get all the wonders etc., you feel that they are on your level thus making the game so much better, interesting and challenging (at least in my opinion
).
And don't forget, that CP AI is very, very good. Hardly can be compared to Vanilla AI, so my advice is that if you played on X level in Vanilla, lower the difficulty level a bit, to get the flow of the game (I could beat Deity in Vanilla, in CBP even a King / Emperor AI can be quite challenging and surprising ^^)
Yeah I thought about that too, but haven't tried it, so I guess more tests shall be needed (or his Modjesty can say something about what he experienced during AI games).
Bonuses were: instant techs and units from the beginning, plus production / science / gold discounts on basically everything.
In CBP (maybe with CP too, lord G knows better) it's something like this: AI don't get bonuses from the start (maybe some units, and in Deity a settler), but from time-to-time they get instant boosts to yields (maybe when advancing to next era, I'm not sure).
The result is that even if you're playing good, the AIs can back to their feet, and the whole gameplay feels much solid and balanced. You don't have to catch up from the beginning, the AI doesn't get all the wonders etc., you feel that they are on your level thus making the game so much better, interesting and challenging (at least in my opinion
).And don't forget, that CP AI is very, very good. Hardly can be compared to Vanilla AI, so my advice is that if you played on X level in Vanilla, lower the difficulty level a bit, to get the flow of the game (I could beat Deity in Vanilla, in CBP even a King / Emperor AI can be quite challenging and surprising ^^)
Yeah I thought about that too, but haven't tried it, so I guess more tests shall be needed (or his Modjesty can say something about what he experienced during AI games).
Chrisy15
Flower, Beautiful
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2015
- Messages
- 2,137
Bugs!
One of these:
Has this:
[Edit] The EUI 'compatiability' files don't seem to work - CID is still overriding the EUI components with the CID Vanilla versions.
One of these:
Code:
[9840.012] , Update Database - Components/Health/Core/Health_ModSupport.sql, 0.007474
[9840.012] , Update Database - Components/Slavery/Core/Slavery_ArtDefines.sql, 0.002768
[9840.012] , Update Database - Components/Slavery/Core/Slavery_Buildings.sql, 0.005022
[9840.012] , Update Database - Components/Slavery/Core/Slavery_GameDefines.sql, 0.000602Has this:
Code:
[9840.012] near "WHERE": syntax error[Edit] The EUI 'compatiability' files don't seem to work - CID is still overriding the EUI components with the CID Vanilla versions.
JFD
Kathigitarkh
Thanks, I'm aware.
When in doubt, delete cache. It works, but can be sticky. There's nothing more that I'm going to do about it.
This is not a problem with balance, but conception.
Intended.
The turn times don't account for the Production you'll get from Happiness, but you'll get it nonetheless. If this is a big enough issue for enough people, I'll restore the Palace production and just figure something else out.
renegadechicken
Warlord
I'd just like to start out by saying, excellent work on this. I mean seriously, I've NEVER felt like my cities were truly cities with populations that have personality and spirit (for good or ill!). This mod seriously changes the game (that I've played for 1000 hours now, according to Steam!) in an amazing, wonderful way.
Now to the feedback about the mechanics added. I don't know if you've tried this, but the first thing I thought when I saw your mod was "Colonies!? No way! That's awesome! Alright, let's play [some good seafaring civ] on archipelago and get some fun stuff going!" So I started up a game with the CBP and all that jazz, your CiD, and EUI (along with Enlightenment Era and Tech Tree Ends in Enlightenment Era -- these two may become important, but I'm not sure) as the Netherlands (always meant to play them, but I never got around to it). Anyway, there were three major takeaways I had from that game:
1. Getting provinces/States (is that right? I've never gotten one) is nigh impossible on this map type with the requirement of 5 towns. I love that idea, but I cannot tell you how frustrating it is to have a size 30+ city with only a Manor (again, is that right? first time with your mod). Also, it's unclear to me how exactly the towns work-- does my city have to be working them? I actually managed to fit 5 towns onto an island and WELL over the number of buildings required, but I still couldn't build the next building to upgrade to a State. Either way, my suggestion for balance for these maptypes (and the flavor of the gameplay mechanic) would be to have an a/b check: something to the effect of a) whatever it is now (5 of the important buildings in the city, 20 pop, and 5 towns or whatever) OR b) A harbor, 7 of the important buildings, 25-30+ pop. The truth is that a great deal of the cities with a harbor simply won't have the tiles to build that many towns (it's not even that many, but when you can't build them next to each other-- which you definitely shouldn't be able to-- you are very limited to which tiles can have a town). I have no idea how easy this would be to implement though, just thought I'd suggest it!
2. As the game did not progress past the Enlightenment (just before the Industrial Era), I was going for a Domination Victory (I thought it would be a ton of fun just owning the seas with several armadas, which it certainly was-- Sea Beggars are seriously OP). Anyway, the Loyalty system made this extremely difficult to the point of me giving up on the game. Perhaps it's just working as intended (taking cities might be easy, but HOLDING them-- or harder still, winning hearts and minds-- is a much more difficult matter), but it just felt really unfun and punishing me for winning the game. My economy was incredible-- I was truly the envy of the world both economically and culturally (and religiously, honestly), and it was annoying that after buying all the Loyalty buildings I could (Courthouse, Barracks, Armory, Harbor, and of course Heroic Epic in my capital), putting a highly promoted unit in the city (with an "Honor" policy, can't remember which one) and having a Spy, the cities were still Separatist because of the massive Loyalty hit from being a long way from my capital. Now, as far as what I've just said, I love all of that-- I love that it's hard to keep them, I love that distance from the capital is a huge factor, and I love that there are some (costly) things I can do about it.
The problem seems to be that there isn't ENOUGH that I can do about it. I have the largest economy the world has ever seen (500+ gpt), but I can't buy these people's love with some parks or tax breaks? Basically what I'm saying is, I don't need these cities to be Patriotic (in fact, that seems ridiculous to me), but it should be feasible to allow them to grow (I want these capital cities to add to my empire, and surely they don't want to remain a small hamlet-- a ghostly shell of their former glory) while still maintaining Neutral (or at the minimum, Rebellious-- I actually love the rebellious thing and putting down rebellions from time to time) by putting enough effort into them. Basically I believe there should be more Colony/Puppet(?)-ONLY buildings (you don't want to upset the balance of founded cities' Loyalty) that should be costly (both in hammers, maintenance, and possibly crime). As it stands, the only thing I can do is delay the inevitable as long as possible, they separate, I recapture on the following turn, and the city is once again a tiny hamlet with next to nothing in it and little population to speak of, and then the decision to pour even more gold into it in a desperate attempt to again delay the inevitable or simply just let it stagnate, build nothing, and let it just be a piddly outpost that will never regain even a shadow of it's former glory. Neither choice is a very fun one. If it were possible to get more Loyalty out of expensive "buildings" (like parks, tax cuts, or even the Drill Academy-- why doesn't that give Loyalty? Or does it and I've forgotten?), that seems like a great solution here. It's also possible that having high culture/turn could give a boost, or even high gold/turn. Right now it just feels like there's really nothing I can do about it-- if a city is far enough away (not even halfway across the world!), I simply cannot win their hearts no matter how much I want to spoil them and see them return to greatness.
3. Crime seems a bit on the harsh side. Maybe I just need to get used to it because it's working as intended, but it again just seemed like there was really nothing I could do about it. There are a handful of buildings/wonders/policies that make a difference (remember, I'm only up to just before the Industrial Era), and that's that. Everything seems to drive crime up, and almost nothing hampers it. Maybe that's fine and I just need to get used to it. But it did annoy me somewhat that by the end of the game (well, when I quit after the Loyalty issue became too unfun) EVERY single one of my cities, including my capital (at 100% Loyalty, most other founded cities at 80-90% Loyalty) had Organized Crime of one sort or the other. I was sad because with this mod I FINALLY feel like my people are real people-- that my subjects have personalities, passions, and drives-- but despite my massive wealth (economically, culturally, militarily and religiously) there was nothing I could do to protect my citizens from Organized Crime. I kept feeling like I was failing my people as a leader-- their cities were growing, they were becoming more affluent and cultured (and understandably crime became more of an issue as these things happened), but despite my earnest desire to pay any price to help stave off the criminal element in my otherwise flourishing cities there was simply no price I COULD pay (except, I suppose, to just be sad for my people). It came down to a choice between having small, undeveloped but essentially crime-free hamlets to having flourishing but crime-controlled cities. And again, maybe that's fine, but I just felt like there should be more that I could do about crime with all my massive wealth. Unfortunately there is not.
Anyway, things to think about. And sorry for the wall of text! I will say though that despite what it may seem like, for the most part I LOVE your mod. I will keep playing and testing it, and giving you feedback to mull over! Thanks for your incredible work, JFD!
Now to the feedback about the mechanics added. I don't know if you've tried this, but the first thing I thought when I saw your mod was "Colonies!? No way! That's awesome! Alright, let's play [some good seafaring civ] on archipelago and get some fun stuff going!" So I started up a game with the CBP and all that jazz, your CiD, and EUI (along with Enlightenment Era and Tech Tree Ends in Enlightenment Era -- these two may become important, but I'm not sure) as the Netherlands (always meant to play them, but I never got around to it). Anyway, there were three major takeaways I had from that game:
1. Getting provinces/States (is that right? I've never gotten one) is nigh impossible on this map type with the requirement of 5 towns. I love that idea, but I cannot tell you how frustrating it is to have a size 30+ city with only a Manor (again, is that right? first time with your mod). Also, it's unclear to me how exactly the towns work-- does my city have to be working them? I actually managed to fit 5 towns onto an island and WELL over the number of buildings required, but I still couldn't build the next building to upgrade to a State. Either way, my suggestion for balance for these maptypes (and the flavor of the gameplay mechanic) would be to have an a/b check: something to the effect of a) whatever it is now (5 of the important buildings in the city, 20 pop, and 5 towns or whatever) OR b) A harbor, 7 of the important buildings, 25-30+ pop. The truth is that a great deal of the cities with a harbor simply won't have the tiles to build that many towns (it's not even that many, but when you can't build them next to each other-- which you definitely shouldn't be able to-- you are very limited to which tiles can have a town). I have no idea how easy this would be to implement though, just thought I'd suggest it!
2. As the game did not progress past the Enlightenment (just before the Industrial Era), I was going for a Domination Victory (I thought it would be a ton of fun just owning the seas with several armadas, which it certainly was-- Sea Beggars are seriously OP). Anyway, the Loyalty system made this extremely difficult to the point of me giving up on the game. Perhaps it's just working as intended (taking cities might be easy, but HOLDING them-- or harder still, winning hearts and minds-- is a much more difficult matter), but it just felt really unfun and punishing me for winning the game. My economy was incredible-- I was truly the envy of the world both economically and culturally (and religiously, honestly), and it was annoying that after buying all the Loyalty buildings I could (Courthouse, Barracks, Armory, Harbor, and of course Heroic Epic in my capital), putting a highly promoted unit in the city (with an "Honor" policy, can't remember which one) and having a Spy, the cities were still Separatist because of the massive Loyalty hit from being a long way from my capital. Now, as far as what I've just said, I love all of that-- I love that it's hard to keep them, I love that distance from the capital is a huge factor, and I love that there are some (costly) things I can do about it.
The problem seems to be that there isn't ENOUGH that I can do about it. I have the largest economy the world has ever seen (500+ gpt), but I can't buy these people's love with some parks or tax breaks? Basically what I'm saying is, I don't need these cities to be Patriotic (in fact, that seems ridiculous to me), but it should be feasible to allow them to grow (I want these capital cities to add to my empire, and surely they don't want to remain a small hamlet-- a ghostly shell of their former glory) while still maintaining Neutral (or at the minimum, Rebellious-- I actually love the rebellious thing and putting down rebellions from time to time) by putting enough effort into them. Basically I believe there should be more Colony/Puppet(?)-ONLY buildings (you don't want to upset the balance of founded cities' Loyalty) that should be costly (both in hammers, maintenance, and possibly crime). As it stands, the only thing I can do is delay the inevitable as long as possible, they separate, I recapture on the following turn, and the city is once again a tiny hamlet with next to nothing in it and little population to speak of, and then the decision to pour even more gold into it in a desperate attempt to again delay the inevitable or simply just let it stagnate, build nothing, and let it just be a piddly outpost that will never regain even a shadow of it's former glory. Neither choice is a very fun one. If it were possible to get more Loyalty out of expensive "buildings" (like parks, tax cuts, or even the Drill Academy-- why doesn't that give Loyalty? Or does it and I've forgotten?), that seems like a great solution here. It's also possible that having high culture/turn could give a boost, or even high gold/turn. Right now it just feels like there's really nothing I can do about it-- if a city is far enough away (not even halfway across the world!), I simply cannot win their hearts no matter how much I want to spoil them and see them return to greatness.
3. Crime seems a bit on the harsh side. Maybe I just need to get used to it because it's working as intended, but it again just seemed like there was really nothing I could do about it. There are a handful of buildings/wonders/policies that make a difference (remember, I'm only up to just before the Industrial Era), and that's that. Everything seems to drive crime up, and almost nothing hampers it. Maybe that's fine and I just need to get used to it. But it did annoy me somewhat that by the end of the game (well, when I quit after the Loyalty issue became too unfun) EVERY single one of my cities, including my capital (at 100% Loyalty, most other founded cities at 80-90% Loyalty) had Organized Crime of one sort or the other. I was sad because with this mod I FINALLY feel like my people are real people-- that my subjects have personalities, passions, and drives-- but despite my massive wealth (economically, culturally, militarily and religiously) there was nothing I could do to protect my citizens from Organized Crime. I kept feeling like I was failing my people as a leader-- their cities were growing, they were becoming more affluent and cultured (and understandably crime became more of an issue as these things happened), but despite my earnest desire to pay any price to help stave off the criminal element in my otherwise flourishing cities there was simply no price I COULD pay (except, I suppose, to just be sad for my people). It came down to a choice between having small, undeveloped but essentially crime-free hamlets to having flourishing but crime-controlled cities. And again, maybe that's fine, but I just felt like there should be more that I could do about crime with all my massive wealth. Unfortunately there is not.
Anyway, things to think about. And sorry for the wall of text! I will say though that despite what it may seem like, for the most part I LOVE your mod. I will keep playing and testing it, and giving you feedback to mull over!
Thanks for your incredible work, JFD!Professor137
Chieftain
I've tried this mod, with the EUI compatible, but it doesn't seem to be working. I'm playing a game which only has your two mods, and the Community Patch mods. If I use your mod I can't produce anything, I can't see any of the techs, and when I entered the city screen I couldn't get out. Before it wouldn't even start the game with it on, crash straight away. So I deleted the cache but as you can see it didn't seem to do much. Pls help!
JFD
Kathigitarkh
1. The easier solution, and the one that I will take, is to remove the Improvements requirement, from both CBP and CP.
2. Drill Academy is an excellent idea! Don't know why I didn't think of that
Will be in the next update. Out of interest, do you remember by how much the distance penalty was costing? What map was this on? This will probably help me figure out how much Loyalty the DA should yield, without it being too much - unless you had any thoughts as to the right amount?3. I'll certainly give some thought to this, although I don't have any solutions at hand.
I think for a solution to a lot of these issues I once again fall back on Sovereignty (though it occurs to me you may not use/like RtP), especially as my hands are particularly tied for adding new Buildings, Wonders, or the like. For instance, I have finished up, inspired by your post, one Reform which will increase the Organized Crime threshold, and have added to the set of Legal Reforms many concerning Loyalty and Crime.
But it was my intention to have two means of counteracting OC in Crimes - one from the National Intelligence Agency and the other from the International Criminal Court resolution. The latter had to be removed for technical reasons (it didn't work
), but I didn't substitute it for anything at the time of removal. However, in the next update, I'll look at readding the ICC as a world project instead. This, and the NIA, probably wouldn't deal with OC before the Modern Era, so I'll have to think about OC as a problem of the pre-Modern Era and see what I can do about it.I truly enjoyed this write-up - it was very eloquent. Thank you. If you have anything to say on Health, I'd love to hear it
Please read the OP and report back.
Chrisy15
Flower, Beautiful
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2015
- Messages
- 2,137
Just played a small session of CID and RTP, and there was no CTD - I guess it must have just been an anomaly :/
Quick FYI - Pont Du Gard has the same Quote as Forum Magnum.
Also, is a plague meant to damage population? I had one hit my capital... and seemingly nothing happened. The counter just reset to 0 the next turn, and the game continued as it was.
Other than that, I'm afraid I don't have much balance info - might get around to playing CID + RTP later.
Quick FYI - Pont Du Gard has the same Quote as Forum Magnum.
Also, is a plague meant to damage population? I had one hit my capital... and seemingly nothing happened. The counter just reset to 0 the next turn, and the game continued as it was.
Other than that, I'm afraid I don't have much balance info - might get around to playing CID + RTP later.
TranquilSilence
Grumpy Snufkin
After finishing a couple of the essays I needed to finish up - I finally got some time to play a game using the most recent CID and RTP, pretty much to test out health (and see the stellar Great Doctor icon in action).
I didn't manage to make it to the late game (experienced a CTD - not sure what caused it yet or if it will repeat when I return to the game - I'll return with logs if this is the case), but I didn't really have many issues with Health early on - and didn't notice the AI struggling with it that much, which I presume is good. This could just be down to the luck of resource placement however. It was nice to have a game where the AI wasn't constantly snapping up every wonder/religion as well - so I'm assuming that the nerf to AI happiness is helping in this regard.
Glad to see the potential for more Colony exclusive stuff - or at least more loyalty for colonies. Though I like the idea that maintaining colonies is a struggle - and that you should have to expend Great Civil Servants to bring them into the empire proper, it sort of feels like low loyalty is the default at the moment for me. That said - I've yet to get the Pena wonder - so maybe that could help. I did notice that all of my neighbours had at least one city flip to Barbs fairly early on (the Celts, the Dutch and the Belgians all ended up losing their 2nd/3rd cities in revolt), so perhaps the AI is not handling Loyalty so well.
Health is fun though - I'm pretty enamoured with the system - I'd be interested to see how it effects Jungles/Marsh starts (RIP Calusa), but as of yet the game seems set on spawning me near the Tundra
Like with the changes to Ideological Tennets related to Crime - is there any chance that the various Healthcare policies will be similarly edited to work with the new component? Speaking of new components, is it possible that we will see Slave Colonies return with Slavery's completion? Or are they not currently planned?
I didn't manage to make it to the late game (experienced a CTD - not sure what caused it yet or if it will repeat when I return to the game - I'll return with logs if this is the case
), but I didn't really have many issues with Health early on - and didn't notice the AI struggling with it that much, which I presume is good. This could just be down to the luck of resource placement however. It was nice to have a game where the AI wasn't constantly snapping up every wonder/religion as well - so I'm assuming that the nerf to AI happiness is helping in this regard.Glad to see the potential for more Colony exclusive stuff - or at least more loyalty for colonies. Though I like the idea that maintaining colonies is a struggle - and that you should have to expend Great Civil Servants to bring them into the empire proper, it sort of feels like low loyalty is the default at the moment for me. That said - I've yet to get the Pena wonder - so maybe that could help. I did notice that all of my neighbours had at least one city flip to Barbs fairly early on (the Celts, the Dutch and the Belgians all ended up losing their 2nd/3rd cities in revolt), so perhaps the AI is not handling Loyalty so well.
Health is fun though - I'm pretty enamoured with the system - I'd be interested to see how it effects Jungles/Marsh starts (RIP Calusa), but as of yet the game seems set on spawning me near the Tundra
Like with the changes to Ideological Tennets related to Crime - is there any chance that the various Healthcare policies will be similarly edited to work with the new component? Speaking of new components, is it possible that we will see Slave Colonies return with Slavery's completion? Or are they not currently planned?
Revolutionist_8
King
I've experienced this too, but only when war was raging on. I'm pretty sure that 'Losing war' modifier is what causes this, maybe it can be toned down a bit, only for the AI? Peaceful AIs and AIs with only one or few wars seem to handle Loyalty absolutely fine.
About crimes in late-game, making a civilian 'police' unit could be manageable?
Maybe a new 'Worker' unit, modifying it to have high production cost, giving it a really harsh maintenance penalty, and would only affect crimes (can't defend city or anything like that). Just some brainstorming, forgive me, don't know if it's possible 
JFD
Kathigitarkh
Will fix. Thanks.
Hm. When the Plague Counter resets, that means it triggers a Plague for X turns, based upon excess Disease at the time. That Plague will, among other things, subtract Food from your stores. This will, unfortunately, only ever kill a Citizen if the city is stagnant. To get around this (technical) issue, I've added a random chance (5%) for Plagues to kill a Population. However, I'm going to adjust that chance to be relative to city Pop - bigger they are, harder they fall, as it were.
You mean Universal Healthcare? They are changed with Health, reducing Disease from Pop. by 33%.
Slave Colonies will not make a literal return - I want to naturally incentivize employing Slaves to build up Colonies. Dunno how yet, but it will likely involve removing the free Buildings that you get and enabling Slaves to rush Buildings a bit - though I'd want to artificially restrict/make it more attractive to Colonies somehow.
TranquilSilence
Grumpy Snufkin
JFD
Kathigitarkh
They last for as long the number of Excess Disease you have at the time of triggering. I'll double that for the next update and go from there.
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