Cities in Development (Obsolete)

[JFD]

snip

I will start by pointing out that the language you're using is really abrasive and it is difficult to appreciate the constructive aspects amongst it.

Nonetheless.

Happiness to Production Converting Happiness to Gold is entirely counter to the Health/Happiness dichtomy, so is not something I will do. Changing the Production to a Production modifier is actually a good idea - but I will have to consider its impact upon Health, and whether the sacrifice to Theft/Violence bypassing is worth it. Someone else should weigh in if they can.

Crime This doesn't correspond to my experiences with Crime. Crimes can impact on, for instance, Science up to a loss of 40 in the late-game (though that was before I artificially nerfed Fraud). Any loss of any yield is something I feel needs to be addressed. This notwithstanding, however, Crimes is a replacement for Building Maintenance. So the sum of all losses should be roughly equal to what you would lose in Gold from Building Maintenance. Crimes is designed to replace Maintenance for flavour, nothing more.

Health Yes, if you've paid attention to the recent posts, the Aqueduct is atm causing a serious problem for balance.

Local Unhappiness No, its not. The tooltip states that all Local Unhappiness comes from either the city itself or from Population, and it is no more complicated than that.

Capital Constantly is an unhelpful exaggeration. So I don't know if you're complaining for the sake of it, have a bug, or don't like how the system works.

I will take your modifier switch into consideration, but I really did not need to read a barrage of complaints which entirely shroud any constructive feedback.

Using RTP and the latest version of CID together with the CBP is creating an error when I try to choose production for my city:

[379180.375] Runtime Error: Failed to iterate table due to query error.  Check Database.log for more details.
[379183.484] Runtime Error: Failed to iterate table due to query error.  Check Database.log for more details.
[379185.140] Runtime Error: Failed to iterate table due to query error.  Check Database.log for more details.
[379187.921] Runtime Error: Failed to iterate table due to query error.  Check Database.log for more details.

[379074.406] no such column: Type
[379074.406] In Query - select * from Natural_Wonder_Placement where Type = ? LIMIT 1
[379180.375] no such column: IsLoyalty
[379180.375] In Query - select * from Building_JFD_CrimeMods where IsLoyalty = 1 AND CrimeType = 'CRIME_JFD_CULTURE'
[379183.484] no such column: IsLoyalty
[379183.484] In Query - select * from Building_JFD_CrimeMods where IsLoyalty = 1 AND CrimeType = 'CRIME_JFD_CULTURE'
[379185.140] no such column: IsLoyalty
[379185.140] In Query - select * from Building_JFD_CrimeMods where IsLoyalty = 1 AND CrimeType = 'CRIME_JFD_CULTURE'
[379187.921] no such column: IsLoyalty
[379187.921] In Query - select * from Building_JFD_CrimeMods where IsLoyalty = 1 AND CrimeType = 'CRIME_JFD_CULTURE'

I'm not sure why they would suddenly produce this error when previously they worked fine together.

Load RTP after CID.

Sorry for back-2-back posts, but i forgot to mention that loading a save causes an error with the overhead interface. When i hover above the various icons for additional info it only displays 'Brief description' rather than the usual golden age points/turns for next policy etc.
Also is there anything wrong with the overhead interface posted in image of post #1245 on page 63 of this thread, or is it exactly how it should look?
Note :This is for v30 CID. Don't know if corrected with v31.

Im afraid that the error I mentioned before, the Contracts one, has persisted, and using IGE saves no longer fix the problem. Did you manage to find anything in the logs regarding this?

This is a TSL issue. Ergo, not something I can deal with. I don't use as many mods with RtP/CID, and never get this issue, so I assume it's that. Probably an interaction with a mod that uses SaveUtils or something. Sorry, I wish I had any idea, but I don't. And I did petition Gazebo for shifting Mercenaries into the DLL, but Mercenaries requires just too much data (or Gazebo's just too lazy - either's valid). And unfortunately, DarkScythe, the TSL caretaker, doesn't seem around anymore, so there's no one to really help me investigate this issue. It's frustrating that I can't do anything, because this is a literal game-breaking issue, but I'm utterly helpless here.

 

[Revolutionist_8]

I hope I'm not flooding you with feedback, your Modjesty (as I kinda gave back a feedback about Health earlier, just would like to give direct answers to the questions you asked)

I'm using CBP, so this might differs from other's experience:

- Diseases from TR-s was a concern for me, but my economic - greedy - self won usually, so just sent them to the highest possible Gold, and rather decided to deal with Diseases separately. Question: the Disease modifier for TR-s only affected by the cities' Disease situation, or their development also counts somehow?

- I've not seen Disease nor Crime event so far (what conditions trigger them?)

- I was sieging a huge city, I occupied almost all of its tiles, even tho Plague didn't trigger, the reason could be that it went down relatively fast. But I can say that Disease might helped me out there, since the garrisoned unit died quite rapidly (in CBP the garrisoned unit also takes damage while strengthens the city's defense), I had a diseased archer so maybe he was the jolly joker there (medieaval bioweaponry FTW! )

- Turn times for me are absolutely good, haven't noticed anything that would be related to your Modjesty's mods, since the rapid turn time increase starting from Renaissance was in Civ for like... forever? Lord G made some changes that would likely reduce the turn times, so that's some more positive news.

- Villages could play a huge role in Sovereignty I guess, your Modjesty knows what would be reasonable (I think province development is really good as it is, it feels good to strengthen the grip of my power over cities, as they are subjected to spawn more levies for me muhaha... oh, my, I can't wait for Sovereignty (megalomania intensifies)

- Disloyalty from warscore seems to be harsh, and a bit random-ish? When I was defending or attacking succesfully, it was 0%, when lost some units or others DoW-d me it went up to 17%, but slided back quickly. But I think AI could be helped a bit in this regard, as I saw that when multiple wars were going on, Disloyalty skyrocketed to over 70-80%s sometimes for them, resulting in losing multiple cities, even Capitals (number of wars counts in the calculation?)

- You didn't ask about Crimes, but reading previous posts I beg to differ from them regarding Crimes. I think although the system doesn't offer a huge dynamic response to them (yet...Sovereignty I'm looking at you ), Crimes are really good. Especially in CBP, where Unhappines often comes from 'Crime unhappines', dealing with them is really important and it is heavily synergized with CiD's way to deal with Crimes.

I rotate my modding, so atm I'm focusing on Sovereignty. Once I burn out from that, I'll shift back to CID (or wrap up Tribes first) and take a serious look at Health's balance. In the meantime, the more reports on your XPs with Health, Disease, Plagues, the better.

Just simply reading that sentence brigthens my day up How Tribes are doing, your Modjesty? I thought they are close to being able to be released.

Thank you for your work!

 

[JFD]

I hope I'm not flooding you with feedback, your Modjesty (as I kinda gave back a feedback about Health earlier, just would like to give direct answers to the questions you asked)

I'm using CBP, so this might differs from other's experience:

- Diseases from TR-s was a concern for me, but my economic - greedy - self won usually, so just sent them to the highest possible Gold, and rather decided to deal with Diseases separately. Question: the Disease modifier for TR-s only affected by the cities' Disease situation, or their development also counts somehow?

- I've not seen Disease nor Crime event so far (what conditions trigger them?)

- Disloyalty from warscore seems to be harsh, and a bit random-ish? When I was defending or attacking succesfully, it was 0%, when lost some units or others DoW-d me it went up to 17%, but slided back quickly. But I think AI could be helped a bit in this regard, as I saw that when multiple wars were going on, Disloyalty skyrocketed to over 70-80%s sometimes for them, resulting in losing multiple cities, even Capitals (number of wars counts in the calculation?)

Just simply reading that sentence brigthens my day up How Tribes are doing, your Modjesty? I thought they are close to being able to be released.

Thank you for your work!

Diseases from TR's is, currently, 20% of the originating city's Disease. What do you mean by their development?

The Disease one may trigger if you're besieging a city, and the city must be at half health. So probably pretty unlikely to happen. It's a homage to the Mongols/Golden Horde/Whoever started the Black Plague by catapulting corpses at the Genoans in Crimea, who then fled back to Genoa and brought back with them the Plague.

Hm, yea. Warscore appears to be quite erratic, and I may not understand how Gazebo has implemented it well. So I'll ditch it - I think I'll replace it with a less severe Loyalty penalty from each turn whilst at war. So the longer you're at war, the more Disloyalty. This keeps the concept of War Weariness, whilst making it a lot more stable.

Tribes is technically finished - literally the only thing left is an Event or two to go along with it. But I feel a bit pressured to deal with CID balance issues, so Tribes - and Sovereignty - will have to take a bit of a backseat for now.


Next few updates will focus on balancing components individually.

First, I'm going to try something with Health. I don't know if it'll work for the human player as well as for the AI, so keep an open mind. But I'll be shifting my design intentions so that, in the early game, Health is used primarily to stave off Plague, instead of netting excess Health (you can by going the extra mile with Specialists, Wonders, Beliefs, Policies, etc., but if you stick with just Buildings and Terrain, then you'll be in constant excess Disease) - which i think follows historically a bit better anyway. But once you get Hospitals, you'll start consistantly netting excess Health, which should result in a population boom. To do this, Population will be 1:1 Disease, and the Hospital will reduce Disease from Pop (with Universal Healthcare buffing this number). This follows the Crimes line of thinking - where this negative factor is inevitable - so may not sit well with some, but I reiterate the request that you keep an open mind.

Next, Crimes. I personally do not agree that there is anything wrong with the impact of Crimes, and I would be inclined to believe most people feel the same. It is not too serious, as intended by virtue of substituting Building Maintenance, but at the same time, is more impactful than Building Maintenance by virtue of being more pervasive and affecting Yields of significantly more worth than Gold (i.e. Science, Culture). However, I am looking into a point Kesler made - that it's a little too easy to forget about it and its impact. Because of this, I'm looking at how I can make Crime Losses more immediately apparent. Although I do worry that it will become too apparent, and will create an anxiety over needing to eliminate it, this is something that I will try for v32/3. Also, for some reason, Heresy and Vandalism have disappeared from the Crimes calculation, so I'll have to fix this in v32.

Finally, Happiness. I dunno about this one. Production is still superior, because it is buffed by modifiers, whereas Production from Happiness is not. It would be helpful if people gave reports on what kind of Happiness they're netting (non-CBP users, obvs.), so I can get a picture of whether I need to deal with the Production side of things or the Happiness.

 

[Ravellion]

Local Unhappiness No, its not. The tooltip states that all Local Unhappiness comes from either the city itself or from Population, and it is no more complicated than that.

Capital Constantly is an unhelpful exaggeration. So I don't know if you're complaining for the sake of it, have a bug, or don't like how the system works.

I will take your modifier switch into consideration, but I really did not need to read a barrage of complaints which entirely shroud any constructive feedback.

my apologies. Bluntness is a common Dutch cultural trait, but I should know better. I see now that terms such as "useless" are inconsiderate towards the creator who obviously put a lot of time and effort in.

About allegiance level switching: With "constantly" I meant about 6 times in a 200 turn game or so. I simply did not understand why my allegiance changed, so it perplexed me. I had not built barracks or removed my garrisson, but it still changed.

About crime: I stopped playing by the mid game. If by the late game fraud would cause a research loss of 40, it will by then indeed be worth it to build a jail, as it would net 4 research. Worth it, but still not very high up in the priority list. The jail is, in the current build, a suboptimal build choice right up to the industrial age. Of course, that completely disregards flavour.

About happiness: my carelessly blunt feedback earlier basically boiled down to:
1) that the UI does not use the excess happiness to update estimated build times. That makes planning difficult.
2) it devalues tile and specialist based production by a significant amount. As I said, it was actually very easy to build everything I wanted on a 1 tile island, without rush buying or internal trade routes.

 

[JFD]

Allegiance: Hm. Well, Happiness contributes toward Loyalty, so perhaps that is responsible. It is the most fluctuating reason for regular cities, anyway.

1. I'll see what I can do.
2. What kind of Happiness were you netting in your cities? What was your Global Happiness?

 

[Kesler]

Well, I might as well give you final impressions of my game, since it doesn't look like I'll be able to continue it (I shouldn't get so attached to these games as they're testing games, but they're just so much damn fun!)

Health, I have found, to be easy to deal with, in the sense that right when my Disease is starting to overcome my Health, the next Health building comes around. That being said, Siam continues to be crippled by his start. I'm not sure if it's because of faulty AI or a combination with their inability to remain healthy, but it's essentially eliminated them from the game. (They have 2 cities. First in a jungle, second by the coast but surrounded by Marsh).

Crime does add more flavor to the maintenance system. But after thinking about what you've said, should Crime really be anything elaborate? It's simply an enhancement of the original maintenance system, which was pretty easy to forget on its own. This is not to say I do not enjoy Crime, I do. But is it possible to make it something both balanced and more involving then what the original maintenance system was like?

I do like the idea of requiring a high level of military to Pledge Protection to a CS, but it feels limiting that only those in the top 40% can do so. I understand way, because if your looking to make a CS your own, your not planning to play for a diplomatic victory. But in my game, it felt a little arbitrary that I was forced to Pledge to be able to make a medium claim. Have you considered simply allowing any combination? I currently share the same State Religion, we've been allies for many turns, and I have a trade route with them (They're mercantile). Should this not allow me a Medium claim?

Province levels I have found to be broken. It states that I'm supposed to build 5 out of the 10(?) building options, and then I'll get to the next level. But I'm already at 8, and nothing has happened. My pop is high enough, so I presume this to be a code error.

CiD has definitely made me feel as if I'm caring for my cities and people more. Our country is less of a single unified Empire, but more a collection of provinces with their own needs and problems.

Fingers crossed that I can find a way to continue the game. The Mongols, Arabia, Belgium, Siam, and myself (Saxony) are all friends, and I'm really curious to see where this goes (Plus, Belgium and I have some great Empires)

 

[JFD]

Well, I might as well give you final impressions of my game, since it doesn't look like I'll be able to continue it (I shouldn't get so attached to these games as they're testing games, but they're just so much damn fun!)

Health, I have found, to be easy to deal with, in the sense that right when my Disease is starting to overcome my Health, the next Health building comes around. That being said, Siam continues to be crippled by his start. I'm not sure if it's because of faulty AI or a combination with their inability to remain healthy, but it's essentially eliminated them from the game. (They have 2 cities. First in a jungle, second by the coast but surrounded by Marsh).

Crime does add more flavor to the maintenance system. But after thinking about what you've said, should Crime really be anything elaborate? It's simply an enhancement of the original maintenance system, which was pretty easy to forget on its own. This is not to say I do not enjoy Crime, I do. But is it possible to make it something both balanced and more involving then what the original maintenance system was like?

I do like the idea of requiring a high level of military to Pledge Protection to a CS, but it feels limiting that only those in the top 40% can do so. I understand way, because if your looking to make a CS your own, your not planning to play for a diplomatic victory. But in my game, it felt a little arbitrary that I was forced to Pledge to be able to make a medium claim. Have you considered simply allowing any combination? I currently share the same State Religion, we've been allies for many turns, and I have a trade route with them (They're mercantile). Should this not allow me a Medium claim?

Province levels I have found to be broken. It states that I'm supposed to build 5 out of the 10(?) building options, and then I'll get to the next level. But I'm already at 8, and nothing has happened. My pop is high enough, so I presume this to be a code error.

Thoughts on how to fix the disparity between Jungle and non-Jungle starts?

I don't know.

Hm? Another mod?

Hm, I'll have to make it clearer in the tooltip. You need to build a Manor/Mansion before you can upgrade. These conditions just unlock the ability to build them.

 

[Chrisy15]

I do like the idea of requiring a high level of military to Pledge Protection to a CS, but it feels limiting that only those in the top 40% can do so.

That's a CP change, not a CID (well, RTP) change.

[Edit] I too would like an indication of how much Production my happiness is giving me - Or does it get added to the Production total, but just isn't shown on the construction countdown.

 

[JFD]

Why are so many CBP features creeping into CP? Will petition Gazebo. (any others before I do? Is the Happiness thing fixed the latest version?)

 

[Kesler]

That's a CP change, not a CID (well, RTP) change.

Damn it CP. Leave your drastic gameplay changes to CBP, I just want a better DLL

I'll see what I can think up for Jungle and Crime, if anything.

Ah, that makes a lot of sense.

There was a happiness problem? The local happiness is under control.

 

[Kesler]

I think it might be best to just remove disease from Jungle. If you wanted Disease to remain, it should be lessened at least, say to 0.5, or code it so that only deep Jungle (Jungle surrounded by Jungle) offers disease. May not be realistic, but it makes for better balance.

I think that CiD will have to have a basic version of Crime, one very similar to the original maintenance. Crime never dynamically increases, unlike Health. It's a very static system in the vein of maintenance. We need situations and rules to allow it to increase.
Okay, here are some sketchy ideas.
Each city has it's own constabulary/law enforcement. Similar to how you can set your citizens to prioritize certain things, could you code in a way for each city to focus on a particular crime? Doing so draws enforcement resources away from other kinds of crimes. So for example, you really want to stomp down on Corruption. Set the city to focus on that (Corruption down 33%, Violence up 13%, Drug Abuse up by 15%). Allow crime to build up their own "Plague" meters, if they fill then there will be a Wave of crime that crime. Have events that can trigger waves as well.Depending on what your citizens are doing (working specialist slots, working the fields). This idea is starting to spiral out of control, so I'll stop here. I have no idea how plausible (or fun) any of that is.

 

[JFD]

I dunno. The disease on the Jungle tile is a nice, clear representation. And deep Jungle is too complicated. So its either remove it, or something unthought of.

I don't agree. Crime is and always has been a replacement for maintenance. It is meant to be relatively static. There is no need to change this. The 'need,' however, is to impress the variability of what Crime impacts, for which I do have a few solutions in the making.

 

[Kesler]

I dunno. The disease on the Jungle tile is a nice, clear representation. And deep Jungle is too complicated. So its either remove it, or something unthought of.

I don't agree. Crime is and always has been a replacement for maintenance. It is meant to be relatively static. There is no need to change this. The 'need,' however, is to impress the variability of what Crime impacts, for which I do have a few solutions in the making.

Maybe fun two AI games in jungly maps, one without disease and one with?

I'm honestly fine with that. I'm happy with as it, I thought you meant you wanted to enhance it, just wanted to riff some ideas.

 

[JFD]

Yes, I think that would be something to test.

Fair enough. But no, I don't want to enhance the actual system - renegadechicken demonstrated that I have achieved with Crimes exactly what I wanted (save OC related stuff) - I just want to make the system a bit more transparent.

 

[Venice Merchant]

Hello, just wondering why Great Doctors no longer have the ability to add one population? I wonder if it intended or a bug on my end. Thanks

 

[Curns]

I finally got a chance to play a bit over the weekend. Loving the new health system, it made for a very challenging but interesting start to the game reminiscent of CivIV. I started in jungle with a bit of marsh and chose 'Healing Vapours' as my pantheon so I could work Polders later on. It was a great having to balance growth against health and not just focus purely on growth, something I've missed in CivV. As you've already noted all that ended once I completed Tradition and got those free Aquaducts.

Production from happiness actually netted me more production than I normally would have had in that start and I like how it provides an early boost then diminishes as the city grows and the cities own production becomes more important.

I'm only in the early medieval at the moment, but I'll post more feedback as the game progresses.

A few suggestions :

How about a pantheon belief that gives health on jungle tiles to help with a heavy jungle start?

Also I think a small health bonus (eg +2) for settling next to freshwater would help with jungle and floodplains heavy starts.

Aquaduct could maybe be split into two buildings : one gives a flat +2 health boost plus the growth bonus and is given for free with Tradition finish. The other gives the health from rivers bonus. Not sure which building could get which ability.

Anyway thanks again for all your great mods they really make the game more interesting.

 

[Ravellion]

Allegiance: Hm. Well, Happiness contributes toward Loyalty, so perhaps that is responsible. It is the most fluctuating reason for regular cities, anyway.

1. I'll see what I can do.
2. What kind of Happiness were you netting in your cities? What was your Global Happiness?

My Global happiness was fluctuating between 10 and 20. Mostly because I thought that this would be a very powerful strategy, so I pursued happiness sources. Of course, there is a level of diminishing returns there, so that's why I didn't really focus on going above that. Yet. I would have taken every happiness policy in the ideologies that I could have. Most would in effect be better than 5 year plan.

 

[Buildkirbyus]

Can't seem to activate or find the super power of the Great Doctor, (the one that adds +1 population) all i can do is just cure a plauge in a city. Maybe i'm missing something obvious?
Can provide screenshot/mod list if needed

 

[Venice Merchant]

Can't seem to activate or find the super power of the Great Doctor, (the one that adds +1 population) all i can do is just cure a plauge in a city. Maybe i'm missing something obvious?
Can provide screenshot/mod list if needed

Had the same problem but it worked after I updated to newest version of both CP beta and CID.

Also, since the update I can't play custom civ from JFD (Belgium, Egypt) game CTD after few turn.

 

[TranquilSilence]

It seems like the Great Doctor is getting the ability to build a tile improvement - this excites me to no end for some reason.

Would it not be better for the herbalist to remove Disease from Jungles - rather than adding health to them(though it reaches the same conclusion)? It could help cut down on excessive yields on the map since IIRC Health and Disease yields do not cancel each other out (this may not even be possible.)

Regardless, looking forward to the next update as always!