Citizen discussion: Optional turn chats

[Danke]

donsig, I agree with and understand every point you make.

But I still think the TCs add to the game experience for every citizen with the possible exception of the DP. And when it comes down to it, making things easier for the DP is a much lower priority for me personally than increasing the potential for an engaging and equitable game experience for the rest of the citizenry.

I think much of the problems with the TCs had been resolved prior to my joining Game 1. My perception of them has never been as anything but good for the game.

 

[donsig]

Many turn chat problems have been rectified though others remain. The number of game turns played per turn chat is one. I think the demo game would be more enjoyable for more of us if the DP weren't under the turn chat schedule pressure. Given the fixed real time terms there is a tendency cram as many game turns in as possible before one's term expires. (At least I felt that pressure. )

I understand that the turn chats add more to the game for many people. What some people want to continue to ignore is the fact that turn chats take much away from the game for others. Optional turn chats does not give either group the upper hand it merely puts both groups on an equal footing. And it broadens our presidential candidate base as well. So how is the proposal a bad one?

 

[chiefpaco]

For those who do not want to have optional private chats:
I sense a danger in assuming the people will always have an option to vote for a President who will conduct Turn Chats. In the past we have faced many elections that were uncontested. It is possible that citizens will not have a choice but to accept a President who would conduct turns in private. We also have had many occasions that a leader has not been able to fulfill their mandate. If the VP is willing to do private chats, it is a possibility to occur that term.

Again with the chat logs: I feel they are so important as a record of what occured. Without them, we rely heavily on the President's communications and writing skills to recount what happened. While some players here may be so very talented in this respect, I'd rather be voting on my President to play a great game of Civ. I'd venture to say we might lose some worthy Presidential candidates based on their communications abilities. Not saying I am worthy, but I would never run because I have little passion for detailed and entertaining writeups nor do I have a flair for the dramatic or graphical screenshot skills. Especially knowing when my account is the only account.

As someone who has had the opportunity to be the DP, I found it a great experience to share the progress of the nation immediately. When something great happened, I was so excited for us and was able to instantly share the experience with the citizens in chat.

I still do not understand what it takes away from anyone.

Donsig, I very much agree with you that we should get rid of the pressure to achieve any number of turns during a chat. Furthermore, I see no problem in having a vote on this. Let the people decide what they want.

 

[GenMarshall]

Just my two cents here (Two realy new Shiny American pennies )
I would rather have a Public Chat than a Private Chat. Since In my opinion a Private chat would possibly take away the Democracy fell to the game and more twards a Totalitarian System . This is a Game of Democracy, we need Public Chats

Edit: Thanks for Cyc for clearing that up about the Private Chats(Optional public chats) and the current public chats

 

[disorganizer]

Why dont we just put a poll up for the average and the max of the number of turn chats the citizens would like?

The average would be the desired number, to which the actual number of played turns could be lower or higher.

The max would be an absolute max, to which a higher number of turns played is not allowed.

 

[chiefpaco]

CivGeneral: I am not sure I understand what you're saying. Right now a public chat is mandatory. donsig's proposal would be to change that so they are optional. No one has proposed they be eliminated.

disorganizer: I'm not sure I get what you're saying. When I was referring to the # of turns that be played, I was not concerned about the maximum, but the minimum. I was concerned about the pressure some DP's feel sometimes to have to get to 10 turns, even if it takes hours. I thought that was what donsig was referring to and agreed with him. This hurry hurry feeling is bad for the game, as some decisions are made in haste and some things can get overlooked. It also is unfair to tie down the DP to the hotseat for hours to finish things. I also think that there is no hurry or need to do so many turns in a day/week/term/whatever. Maximum is good. Minimum is bad. All IMHO. Am I off track to what you were talking about? I was just trying to piece together the conversation to the point where you replied and I got lost.

 

[disorganizer]

i was talking about not making the chats optional, but slowing the turnrate down ;-) or more letting the citizens poll about the turnrates (and with that defining an absolute-max turncount in addition to the average turncount we have in our heads now).

 

[Shaitan]

I strongly agree that there should not be a mandatory goal for the number of turns per chat. We did remove the "10 turns per chat" stipulation from the rules but it seemed to have a life of its own and continued to be a semi-mandatory goal throughout demogame #1. Hopefully we can break that cycle with this game.

 

[disorganizer]

i agree. thats why we should put up a absolute max BELOW the 10 turns ;-) just to set a sign. we may anyways change this later.

would it be good to start with a max-rate of 5 for example?

well, we can put this value up for vote with every election ;-)
max and average would be good. i would at the moment prefer a max of 8 and and average of 4 btw.

 

[Shaitan]

I prefer a real time limit. However many turns can be played in 2 hours (or whatever is decided upon). In the early years there will be more turns, in the later years there will be less. The DP should have the authority to stop the chat whenever they want. If we do have offline turns we would need a fixed limit as a person playing alone can play far faster than during a chat session.

 

[disorganizer]

How about:

"The chat or playout excluding the pre-turn phase must not extend 2 hours real time nor 10 turns.
An average number of 5 turns per playout is desirable."

Or maybe let all 3 numbers be decided by citizenry?

 

[Cyc]

@CivGeneral - By saying "Optional Public Chats" you are saying "closed door" Private chats. We have open "public Chats" now. By making them "optional" we would make it so the DP could play the game whenever without hold a chat or keeping a log or posting a screenshot. All that is required for an "Optional Turn Chat" ruling is that (so far) if your running platform states you will support open turn chats, you must always have them. If you are the DP in an "Optional Turn Chat" term, you can play the game whenever and are only required to post a report of what you think happened. I believe what you are trying to say is that you want open turn chats, just as they are.

@Dis and Shaitan - I believe we should just impose a 10 turn MAX in the turn chats and the DP can play any amount of turns they feel comfortable with as long as it's not over ten. If they want to play four, they can. If they want to play 8, they can. No pressure, just a MAX of ten turn per chat. I also believe a real time limit is a bad idea, as some DP's, I'm sure would try to play as many turns as possible in a rushed fashion. This would definately not be a good thing.

 

[GenMarshall]

Originaly posted by Cyc
@CivGeneral - By saying "Optional Public Chats" you are saying "closed door" Private chats. We have open "public Chats" now. By making them "optional" we would make it so the DP could play the game whenever without hold a chat or keeping a log or posting a screenshot. All that is required for an "Optional Turn Chat" ruling is that (so far) if your running platform states you will support open turn chats, you must always have them. If you are the DP in an "Optional Turn Chat" term, you can play the game whenever and are only required to post a report of what you think happened. I believe what you are trying to say is that you want open turn chats, just as they are.

I meant the Public Chats that we have . Looks like I am going to edit that post i have made. Thanks for clearing that up for me Cyc. I would rather have a Public Chat.
(My shoe taste funny now *Remarking about the Foot-in-the-mouth*)

*Goes and corrects his earlyer post*

 

[Cyc]

My pleasure, CivGeneral.

 

[Shaitan]

I'd be happy with a turn max as Cyc suggests. We must also stress that hitting that max isn't the goal for the DP. Especially on Emperor level, attention to every concievable detail should be the primary goal.