City Build Style

[Czarina]

Originally posted by PersianImmortal
...I can't even build the FP more than two cities away from the capital as it takes like over 200 turns!!!

Puzzled...I once had somthing similar, but my FP was on the other side of the world and I got started late...maybe you're on Despotism still? Not a good site for the FP city? Maybe get all your workers over there to rush development? I dunno...my longest FP was only 100 turns or so, but I wasn't playing an industrious civ...

Anyone else have this problem?

 

[PersianImmortal]

well I usually have to start building the FP when i'm in Despotisam and in the midst of building it I change to Monarchy/Republic. Still I can't get it done in the choicest of locations because of hopeless corruption.. u can't whip rush an FP.. I hardly ever get any GL's (i played militaristic civs just for that but no luck there either).

As for resources, I still build cities albeit closer to the capital than just running for a resource grab. I try and curb the haste of land grabbing by building poorly placed cities. If my start is good and i have some core cities producing happily with minimal corruption, I can just walk in and take that resource away if my culture doesn't expand first to take it peacefully.

 

[civ_steve]

I voted for OCP, but I might have misstaken it for Tight Build. I like to arrange my core cities to have 15-20 tiles uniquely for each. So, 0-5 overlap tiles. I occasionally put a city in that I limit to size 12, just to fill in any open spaces. I do plan to use nearly all land tiles within my cultural radius.

External cities that I know will be massively corrupt are packed together, more like ICS; I plan out a mixture of size 6 and size 12 cities.

I try to place the FP in a city that has about 65-75% waste, and then force WLTKD to speed up the build. (So, a size 6 city might generate 10 shields and use 3; WLTKD might increase that to about 5, building the FP in 40 turns.) Of course, if I had a spare GL ...

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

I checked off "tight build" though I might not understand the term properly. I don't like to have gaps in my borders between cities when I build them, unless I am grabbing for a distant resource.

And I am not adverse to building a city two spaces away from one of my cities if it will push my border so it flush against an enemy city so I can ride right up, mass forces and attack them without ROP trouble beforehand.

I try to make the first city optimal production and the second optimal growth, so I can do early wonders (or barracks/veteran defenders to go round) in the capital while spawning settlers in the second city.

Sometimes I really do consider the view my citizens will have of the surrounding nature...

 

[willebra]

Originally posted by fret
Tight build, bordering on ICS for a few straightforward reasons -

IMHO it is better to have 100 cities of size 8-15 than 50 cities of 25-30. Why's that? ...

It's true that tight build gets you advantages:
1) better use of luxuries
2) less corruption (smaller cities + closer range)
3) less happy people problems
4) don't need to build e.g. cathedrals or hospitals

On the other hand you get disadvantages:
1) you'll need to build a lot twice (barracks, factories)
2) you'll need more settlers to create all those cities

What more? Additions to the lists?

willebra

 

[Yndy]

Originally posted by willebra



It's true that tight build gets you advantages:
1) better use of luxuries
2) less corruption (smaller cities + closer range)
3) less happy people problems
4) don't need to build e.g. cathedrals or hospitals

On the other hand you get disadvantages:
1) you'll need to build a lot twice (barracks, factories)
2) you'll need more settlers to create all those cities

What more? Additions to the lists?

willebra

I don't think this is exhaustive and this is not the place for it ( or maybe it is) but my additions are:

+ A lot more units, faster
+ More units without upkeep during Despotism

no big effect Corruption: size of city does not matter directly. Closer range offset by larger number. you will get more production near the capital but you won't get ANY production further in the third ring of cities

- slow production from the middle ages onward: Building a cavalry will take like 10 turns in a 8 spt ICS town. what if you need one asap?
- loss of workable tiles (due to building cities on them)

ICS gives you a big advantage during ancient age and halfway through the middle ages. Best use is to plan your cities so that you abandon half the cities during the middle ages with little buildings built.

 

[Dragonlord]

OCP with variations for special circumstances.
That is, I try to utilise all productive tiles in my empire with minimum overlap, but for desert/ tundra/jungle just go for expanding my influence. And, of course, for a strategic resource or luxury I worry less about overlap or gaps - just go and get it!
IMHO, ICS violates the 'spirit' of the game: I'm building a CIVILIZATION here! Would I want my citizens treading on each others toes in a 'real' civilization? Would I build cities only to abandon them soon afterwards? Not likely!

 

[col]

I'm with Yndy here. The sums are inexorable.

If I have 12 cities that all grow by one, I get the same pop increase as your 1 city increasing by 12! Score depends on pop so my score goes up faster than yours.

All a city needs is 3 or 4 squares for the ancient era. By the time a city needs a hospital the game is won. What's the point in allowing cities to increase in size past 12? You just generate more pollution.

If I have 200 little cities each with a temple and library my culture is huge, my research base is huge and 200 cities can build units as fast as or faster than the equivalent number of large cities. The corruption factor doesnt compensate.

Build your cities as close as possible!! Try it. Claim as much land as possible and fill it with cities. One unit in each gives you the strongest army!

If you still havent won by the modern era, you can abandon cities and convert to a looser build if you need a few powerhouse cities to build those spaceship parts.

It's crazy to OCP before hospitals IMHO.

 

[fret]

Originally posted by col


If I have 200 little cities each with a temple and library my culture is huge, my research base is huge 200 cities can build units as fast as or faster than the equivalent number of large cities The corruption factor doesnt compensate.

Absolutely, 50 cities that produce a unit every 10 turns will generate a much better unit flow than 15 cities producing a cav every 5 turns.

...and in the words of the Domestic Adviser, "Build More Cities!", she knows what she's talking about y'know!

Assuming you have 6 luxeries -

200 Cities x 12 pop = 2400 happy citizens

100 Cities x 24 pop = 1200 happy, 200 content, 800 Unhappy

All those smiley faces often lead to a perpetual state of "We Love the Big Cheese Day" and then you get lower curruption. Not much per city, probably only 2 or 3 chields, buts thats a civ wide benefit or 600 Shields, or an ICBM.

 

[Naval Freak]

I like OCP early, but growth and OCP later.


It's important to have 12+ cities, so that way you have a large defensive bounus.

Mech Infantry-defen. of 20+-
Mech Infantry-in city 13+
Mech Infantry-gets defen. +100%
Mech Infantry-defen. 40+-

Duh!

 

[WillJ]

I build in OCP-style to claim as much land as possible, then I'll build inward in ICS-style, except for around the capital. This will greatly increase my unit and culture producing abilities, and will give me a huge advantage in the early ages. Then in the later stages of the game I may disband some cities in the high-growth areas.

 

[Bamspeedy]

ICS will give you an advantage for as long as you can utilize Cavalry. Disconnect your resources, so you can build horseman. Get a bunch of horseman built, reconnect resources, upgrade them and BAM! hit your neighbors with your massive cavalry armies. But many ICS games are over by the time knights become available, by doing a similar tactic of upgrading chariots/horseman to knights. You could also do this to stockpile artillery I suppose, by disconnecting resources, and building catapults for upgrading.
If you give these ICS cities just enough room to grow to size 7+ (irrigate everything), you can have a massive draft, getting 100's of units in 1 turn, or poprush these cities and get a horseman/swordsman every 10 turns, turning the 1 shield/turn city into a 3 shields/turn city.

 

[GerrardCapashen]

If you are going any of the the peaceful Diplomatic/Cultural/Spaceship routes, OCP is better because it allows your cities to produce more commerce with less expenses per city, such as the improvements in each city. If you are going ICS, you should really try to get the Pyramids/Sun Tzu's Art of War/Hoover Dam/Smith's Trading Company because it will give you more benefit than someone with only about 30 cities that are more widely spread and have higher production than your 50 cities. OCP with marketplaces, banks, and stock exchanges in every city can be a real cash or science power though.

 

[DaveMcW]

100k Cultural victories tend to be ICS. You get more culture by building lots of cities and temples and libraries than by building a few cities with all improvements and wonders.

 

[GerrardCapashen]

In my experience, 20k city culture victories occur more often than 100k for the whole empire because as you approach 100,000 culture points, you must look at the Histograph and destroy any other civilization with at least half your culture points. Depending on the number of civs you play with, this can be quite a task if 5 other civilizations have about 60,000 culture points, which is not uncommon. It isn't that rare to unintentionally got a 100k culture victory when you are trying to go late-game Conquest because you are eliminating all the other civilizations anyway.

 

[Chieftess]

I suppose 100k becomes much more 'impossible' at the top two levels. It's certainly possible in monarchy. Just look at the 1st demogame - still, had we placed a wonder or two in the capital, we would have been looking at 20k culture very close to the 100k win.

 

[Karl_t_great]

I usually play OCP though I usually go for lux and resources, and later take whatever city placement AI has set up for me.

At first I considered OCP as the most economic way of placing citites, particulary after reading alexmans corruption article. The OCP world works like this -- You have two circels of low corruption ground (capital +FP), which You try to optimally cover with N cities. The cities outside the circles are corrupted to negative balance (maint>income). So to have MAX gold, build MIN cities to cover the "fertile" area with minimum maintenance. This must be kind of max economy path - suitable for spaceship victory.

On the other hand, as pointed out in this thread ICS can produce more happy faces/lux, and You won't need so many happyness improvments. In fact it migth be possible to build a zero maint empire with Pyramids&Sun Tzu's &Smith's (this I need to try out). Obviously this is more suitable for militaristic and culture rush kind of strats.

Anyway, I cannot agreen with fret & col on that You could produce more science ICS style (except for early game)
200 cities X lib + Uni = 600 gpt for maint.
Even with some trades this must make a hole in Your scrience budget. The only sci benefit You can get is thru larger total pop prior to sanitation.

 

[GerrardCapashen]

You can also have a hybrid between OCP and ICS: You build the fisrt ring of cities OCP-style, because these will be your late-game production cities. The rest of your empire you build ICS so that you can gain large benefits before you have hospitals for those inner cities to expand to their maximum potential. If you are looking for science, OCP is the way to go and the Internet is a great Modern Age wonder because it gives you research labs in all your cities and triggers a Golden Age if you haven't had one yet.

 

[Bamspeedy]

In fact it migth be possible to build a zero maint empire with Pyramids&Sun Tzu's &Smith's (this I need to try out). Obviously this is more suitable for militaristic and culture rush kind of strats.

Download my Regent HoF game. I have 511 cities all on one continent, and I have Sun Tzu's, Pyramids, and Smith's trading company. Sold temples after getting the coastal city's borders to expand. If I hadn't bothered to build hospitals (and mass transit) to squeeze just a few more points out of the map, the only maintanence I'd pay for is aqueducts.

Anyway, I cannot agreen with fret & col on that You could produce more science ICS style (except for early game)
(except for early game)
200 cities X lib + Uni = 600 gpt for maint.
Even with some trades this must make a hole in Your scrience budget. The only sci benefit You can get is thru larger total pop prior to sanitation.

ICS cities wouldn't build libraries and universities. You irrigate everything (in your high-corrupt areas where shields aren't doing you any good) so these cities produce specialists. The average city in my Hof game was size 12-13. Only 6 citizens actually worked tiles (need only a marketplace to keep them all happy), but because of the irrigation (irrigated and railroaded grassland is best), each city also produced 6 scientists. I had replaceable parts at 660 A.D. and that wasn't going with max science the whole game, either. And was learning modern age techs every 4 turns, due to my 3000 or so scientists. Didn't build 1 single library. On smaller maps, there obviously won't be enough room for 500 cities, but the tech rate is also faster (less gold required to research), so I'm not sure how well ICS would work on the smaller maps for research.

You can also have a hybrid between OCP and ICS: You build the fisrt ring of cities OCP-style, because these will be your late-game production cities. The rest of your empire you build ICS so that you can gain large benefits before you have hospitals for those inner cities to expand to their maximum potential. If you are looking for science, OCP is the way to go and the Internet is a great Modern Age wonder because it gives you research labs in all your cities and triggers a Golden Age if you haven't had one yet.

Yep. Adding cities farther away from your palace doesnt' affect the corruption of cities closer to it, so using ICS on far cities is a good tactic. This was nicknamed "Fringe ICS" by Cartouche Bee. He has a great screenshot in the HoF thread on one of the last pages of that thread, of using fringe ICS.

 

[fephisto]

I usually save up serttlers and explore and find the other AI civs are before I settlerize then since I saved up settler-warrior and have them nearby and ready, I block up the AI's expansion with about 15 cities suddenly appearing right next to there border!!!!! After of course I buil 2 or 3 at the most of food-prioritized cities.