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City State Diplomacy Mod (Updated)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Oct 18, 2010.

  1. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    It does aid them, however a civ can never gain more than 5 votes from the Grand Temple (it maxes at 5, though I might reduce this to 4 or 3). As such, I don't feel it is too much of a boost, especially considering that other civs will also have access to the wonder, and, ultimately, it gives a faith-based empire much more diplomatic power (and thus greater purpose). These values will need to be balanced, of course, but for now I think it is suitable.

    Regarding the other two points, shutting off the power of the Grand Temple because of another World Religion feels too strong – that's potentially a 7-vote swing in power. I think the added boosts from World Religion are enough by themselves (besides, just because another religion is dominant doesn't mean that lesser religions lose all power entirely).

    It appears in the Capital. There's no way to control this without re-writing a lot of .dll values, something I'd like to avoid. To compromise, I gave the admiralty a static +5 Gold, simulating the effects of an additional, average trade route. Isn't perfect, but it works well enough. Overall, do you feel the project is strong enough? I think I'm going to make a modern project as well on a similar theme (Military Games or something) that benefits land conquerors – military conquest is not terribly well represented in the WC resolutions (in a positive way).

    Indeed, you raise a good point. I might reduce the production penalty to -25% and simply increase the baseline gold cost of the parts by 15% via xml (and the faith cost of engineers by 15%). The problem with 'balance' in this regard is that you don't want to nerf a victory strategy so much that you neuter the entire victory. I'm not out to eliminate the science victory, just to extend the victory timeline for other civs.

    As I said, v.22 is still a work-in-progress. I still plan on adding the following:

    - a modern-era project (military-themed)

    - a late-game faith world wonder (possibly the Lotus Temple in India) that, like the Grand Temple, grants votes for faith (helping diplo players clench that last little bit of vote power needed)

    - late-game national wonders for the three ideologies. Ideas for this are as follows:

    Order: Palace of Science and Culture. Can only be built in capital. Grants science and culture (obviously), and one vote for every research agreement the player currently has.

    Autocracy: Hall of Honor (Ehrenhalle). Can only be built in capital. Grants faith and military experience, and one vote for every two puppets.

    Freedom: United Nations. Can only be built in capital. Grants tourism and happiness, and one vote for every declaration of friendship.

    Thoughts?
    G
     
  2. roymend

    roymend Chieftain

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    All this is true, but I think that a system that gives votes based on religion should give votes based on how many cities/citizens follow this religion and not on faith output. The reason is: we need another reason to spread our religions, and also it just makes more sense.

    A better solution, in my opinion, would be to give both a production penalty and a rush-buy penalty (if that's possible in the code).

    I don't think we need another one, maybe except an XCOM one (but if you're going to do that you must nerf the XCOM first, giving them to only one or two civs is too OP).

    Again, it is better to give votes for spreading religion than for faith, in my opinion.

    I really, really like this idea. The freedom one is something I've always wanted - being able to get votes for good relations with other civs too, not just with city states. You should change the name though. The autocracy one is great too. But you should change the Order one, because research agreements require DoF's anyway - that essentially makes the hall of science and culture a weakened version of the united nations. You see what I mean? Maybe giving votes per city, per pop, per factory or per resource is a better idea.

    Looking forward to see those national wonders in the game!
     
  3. thanerion

    thanerion Chieftain

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    Few points:

    1. Remember that the more votes there are, the harder it is to win - because every vote increases the ammount of votes you need to gain to win (at least that's what the game leads me to think - it works the other way around too - the fewer the votes_max, the less votes_had you need to win the world's favourite vote).

    2. So the project is worthless for non-coastal capital civs that can't use the wonder to make ships? Well... I'd swap this to "grants a building X" that allows you to build the wonder wherever you like. Like the city you built all the other cool-xp stuff and Heroic Epic in. Even a "policy-like" code that gives every ship the bonus would be better. And warfare needs money - not flat money that can be multiplied - +1 trade route is much better than flat gold not because it gives gold, but because it's not absolute - it can be pillaged and it doesn't benefit from +% gold stuff. We really don't need more flat boni (I've been fighting for this since School of Scribes gave +2 beakers, making it the top science building in the early game ;p).

    3. For a military project to have value, it must either give cool promotions, exp or reduce maintenance cost (or reduce the warmonger penalty - it was riddiculous on one end of the spectrum, after the expansion it's riddiculous on the other end - we seriously need a mod for "causa bellum" in this game). Currently the thing that is most difficult is probably balance between maps - I'd go with reducing maintenance costs.

    4. Map balance is the same reason I would seriously avoid tampering with "votes for puppets". Votes for controlled capitals - maybe.

    5. Agree on the "ammount of cities following a religion" as the thing to tap. Faith generation is passive, boring and you don't feel like you earned anything (aside from the fact that it's really hard to build temples everywhere when going wide).

    6. You would really have to radically change the game to neuter science victory. It's not only the strenght - it's how quickly stuff is availible - it's not possible to run a "+2 tourism from faith buildings" desert folklore / dance of the aurora pagoda+mosque piety-poland route every game - it's a gimmick, but the only gimmick that makes culture victory possible in competitive situation currently. If you do reach the internet, you never do it in time for it to matter - we would need to rebalance Great Musician pops (to apply them in the country of origin and spread tourism everywhere) and/or add a way of significantly slowing research after Archeology. Currently the only possible victory is science (remember - I'm talking about hotseat, but balance can clearly be seen here). If not hammered heavily, science always wins. If science is hammered heavily, diplomacy wins. Culture never wins - even the most riddiculous circumstances don't allow dominating all civs in the timeframe of "about 15 turns from the start of the information era" - again, too many boni, too few penalties except from "killing dudes and burning bases". What I am talking about is that, at least in my opinion, mixing stuff should not be avoided. Why wouldn't I have to dabble in culture or diplomacy the same way everyone dabbles in science? If I could do something besides "arts funding", which honestly sucks by the time it's availible, I would compete on the grounds of diplomacy (I would then promptly give up after enacting my target resolutions because I can't really do anything and not fall out of the culture/science race - I'll dabble again if there'll be a risk of my resolution being voided - I can buy AIs favour, play the soft power game etc.). You give votes in other places than CS - that is great - it helps a diplo-focused player to gain votes in different ways. But WC can be used to balance much more than that - introducing the GM modification via WC policy would be awesome - I'd seriously go out of my way to buy votes for that. WC, along conquest and cultural domination, should be the swords. Use a sword correctly, win. Science does not need that - you don't need anything, you don't get anything - it's extremely powerful and easy anyway. But just overclocking domination penalties a bit and introducing a way to "fight" on fields other than battle is a good way to go. You can even rebalance the whole leader vote to make it more dependant on getting much more votes that are needed for pushing policies but not even near the maximum, and make the maximum, or anything near it, unachievable. This way no single civ will hold the power of WC-law, but it'll also be possible to win. Currently, the best path is conquest - this alone can help you not only achieve growth yourself, but limit the growth of opponents. Embargos, "penalty resolutions" in the WC are all impotent - they are not worth the power. You enact them simply because you have votes anyway.
    If we can fight using units, if we (by design, but not in practice) can fight using culture, why wouldn't we fight on the field of the World Congress? Noone says that it's unfair that people have to build units (the thing that conquest civs do) to defend from an invasion, why is it not fair to have to gather diplomatic influence and votes to defend from an invasion-by-international-law-that-prevents-us-from-doing-as-we-please? I think it's fair - force the battle on other fields, enrich the game. The fact that we can have units doesn't make it impossible to win by conquest - the same should go for diplomacy - the fact that I hold enough votes to try and sway WC towards my path (by bribery and swift CS takeovers) doesn't mean that the guy with more votes doesn't get his chance - he can gather votes to win. The only thing that we need is more votes on the field, more possibilities to gain votes, and decrease in the number of votes actually required to win so that it's possible without the need to utterly dominate WC first (which would give the diplo player too much power at the end of the game). Out of the many games I played in the past 6 months, none ended after the first UN vote (as a side note - that's why I think X-Comms are a non-issue, unless the player is teasing the AI or going out of his way to achieve victory differently, they never see any actual warfare) - they ended either with it or before it.

    PS - to complete my rant of evil - who actually though that giving 2 GS for free with Hubble was a good idea? Along with allowing a player to buy 3-4 additional ones with faith, providing a free spaceship factory and a +25% spaceship production bonus for a single wonder that can easily be rushed with a GE for like 1000 faith? This is the core and essence of how broken science victory actually is. And even eliminating that wouldn't actually neuter space victory - but it would certainly make it less... overpowering.
     
  4. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Yeah, I thought about that, however so many of the beliefs/tenets already cover that kind of bonus. I felt that rewarding players for high faith-per-turn is a bit easier to balance on different map sizes, and shakes things up a bit. We'll see how it pans out.

    I think we're saying the same thing here.

    I'm not sure what you mean. I wasn't going to mess with XCOM units in this project (I'm thinking modern/atomic-age project).

    It is weaker, but it also has more reward than just flat DoFs. I want the votes earned from these to be active, so I want to avoid 'vote per x' resource/pop bonuses. I'll keep brainstorming.

    If I recall correctly, the number of votes needed is based on the number of major and minor civs in the game. I'll take a look and double-check – if it isn't that way, it should be.

    No, it is a global promotion grant – it gives the 'Treasure Fleet' promotion to all naval units built in the empire. (I had this same concern)

    Yeah, true. I just don't want to imbalance things too much off the bat. I'm also not sure what would happen if the wonder was built on a waterless map and then gave a cargo ship (as it doesn't require water). I shall explore.

    It does give a nice global promotion. I'll look into the maintenance cost reduction as well, though I don't want the wonder to be too strong.

    That's not a bad idea (capitals). I'm less concerned with very-late-game balance for those national wonders as they are designed to accelerate the possibility of diplomatic victory (thus bringing it into line with science). If they're a bit OP, that's okay.

    I'm still on the fence about that. It is technically quite easy to do, I just feel it is a mechanic that is thoroughly 'done' by beliefs/tenets. In my opinion, converting faith-per-turn to votes makes sense because the mechanic is more a representation of religious authority than spread.

    GE, you mean?

    What do you mean by this?

    Yeah, but that's a core gameplay flaw (and also, to boot, a real life thing. being conquered is zero fun).

    Okay, lots more to think about. Here's my takeaway. I should focus on resolutions and projects to make the WC better at punishing other players and/or support non-science victory conditions. For example, I could make a resolution that boosts tourism to help culture players or a 'we're sorry' resolution to lower warmonger penalties. I like this approach, as it is more about closing loopholes than pure balance.
     
  5. thanerion

    thanerion Chieftain

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    With the "GM modification" I was talking about the "Great Musician popped in own boarders spreads tourism everywhere" thing mentioned earlier in the post. Maybe I should've pointed towards that more clearly ;-)

    If "Treasure Fleet" is given to every unit then perhaps we could enhance it to also aid warfare through rivers for melees? Just to make it a bit better-yet-still-naval-based?

    Even a bit on the "lower maintenance cost" and "reduce warmonger" line goes a long way towards helping conquest really be an option. Perhaps "causa bellum" towards a civ - boom declaring war on them doesn't cause warmonger, as an added bonus?

    Overclocking cultural domination penalties - when you dominate a civ that has different ideology, even if it's not the world ideology, you start civil unrest. This is greater when the ideology is considered a "world ideology", but this mechanic still exists. It doesn't do much really - but it could be important if the penalties were high enough. They are not. You have changed the "world ideology" penalties to be bigger - but the ideology penalties resulting from tourism are much more important. If they were high enough, cultural path would actually mean something ;-) "Free Flow of Information" (increases tourism spread between civs with different ideologies by a bit to mitigate the penalty, increases unhappiness from different ideologies) resolution would be cool here (I know, I know, outside of scope a bit, but one can dream :)
     
  6. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Ah, I see now. I can't do much with the Great Musician, as that would require a complete re-write of the AI (glurg). I think, though, that a resolution that increases tourism (similar to your last point) makes a lot of sense. I'll look into it. Whatever it is, it would need to come fairly early (I'd say Modern Era). Honestly, though, such a change feels like it should just happen once the Modern Era begins, so as to represent the emergence of Cold War-esqe tensions. I might just introduce it into the tech tree as a natural advance. I'll think about it.

    Treasure Fleet is given to all naval units except subs and carriers – so it is good, but somewhat specific. I'd like to keep it naval-only, so as to highlight the extreme importance of naval superiority in the early modern and modern (pre-20th c.) periods. I need to test it some more.

    I'll look into the 'reduce warmonger' concept – I'm not sure such a thing even exists in the code, but you never know.
    G
     
  7. thanerion

    thanerion Chieftain

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    Tourism is defeated by penalties - you really need to have open boarders and trade routes with everyone - and the different ideologies put a serious stop on any of your attempts to take over civs with different ideology. And since the only sword you have from this victory condition works only when you have an ideology that is not followed by any major civs, this sucks heavily. You either need to go the "I won't make it harder for me" and hope for the best or "I will make it harder for them" which doesn't really work well. Something needs to be changed here for Tourism to work.
    Edit: we don't actually have "too small tourism" - we have too many tourism penalties that handicap it. It takes a lot of time to counteract these penalties, often completely resigning from using spies to either influence CS elections or steal techs. Even a 10% boost to civs with different ideologies or 10% boost with the invention of World Congress (who though that wasn't a good idea?) would really balance it out. Well we certainly could use an increase in unhappiness from civil unrest by like 20-50% (depending on how much you buffed unhappiness from World Ideology).

    As for the naval project, I think it's somewhat mediocre. +1 sight range perhaps? That would be nice and useful and not overpowered. I would seriously consider turning my empire off for some turns to achieve what the project already gives +that. Remember that a project means just that - most of your cities are iddle gathering hammers - it's rarely worth it (that is the main issue with world's fair too).

    If "reduce warmonger" is not present, then perhaps a "restart" in relations similar to the "I have now adopted an ideology" mechanic?
     
  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Alright, v22 #2 inbound. Testing is needed for many of these features, as all possible scenarios are hard to fabricate.

    1.) Grand Temple now gives 1 vote per 4 following cities (faith per turn was causing...issues)

    2.) AAC WC resolution now a -25% production penalty, includes +25% gold costs and +25% faith costs for engineers.

    3.) Grand Admiralty placeholder art/name removed - is the 'Grand Canal' (yay Venice), grants 1 free trade route, and the same promotion (buffed with +1 sight).

    4.) Treasure Fleet project has following tiers:

    a.) Bronze: Frigate and 2 happiness
    b.) Silver: Admiral and 4 free maintenance for military units.
    c.) Gold: Grand Canal

    5.) Added new Modern Era project (unlocks at Replaceable Parts): Global Wargames

    a.) Bronze: Infantry and 4 free maintenance for military units.
    b.) Silver: Great General and 100% Tourism for 20 turns.
    c.) Gold: +25% attack power for 30 turns.

    6.)Added +25% empire tourism boosts to Radio and Computers (so 50% total, followed by 100% at Internet).

    7.) Tweaks to WC vote logic

    8.) 3 new National Wonders:

    a.) WTO: +25% Food and Gold in the city where it is built. Receive 1 free Great Diplomat when completed. Produces 4 Paper. +25% Production when building Diplomatic Units. Receive one vote in the World Congress for every Declaration of Friendship you currently have with other players. Provides a free Wire Service in the city where it is built. (Freedom only)

    b.) Hall of Honor: +15 Tourism and Faith in the city where it is built. Receive 1 free Great Diplomat when completed. Produces 4 Paper. +25% Production when building Diplomatic Units. Receive one vote in the World Congress for every enemy capital you control. Provides a free Wire Service in the city where it is built. (Autocracy Only)

    c.) Palace of Science and Culture: +25% Science and Culture in the city where it is built. Receive 1 free Great Diplomat when completed. Produces 4 Paper. +25% Production when building Diplomatic Units. Receive one vote in the World Congress for every Research Agreement you have. Provides a free Wire Service in the city where it is built. (Order Only)

    8.) Tweaked Ideology unrest rates (was at 1 unhappy per 10 citizens, is now 1 unhappy per 6 citizens).

    9.) Warsaw Pact is gone (end-game a bit crowded, esp. with new national wonders).

    10.) New artwork (Kwadjh's excellent submissions to the civfanatics database), contingent on Kwadjh's approval in their use.

    That should be it for now - I'll be out of town starting on Monday, so keep track of any bugs you run into so we can crush them when I get back.
    G
     
  9. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Any thoughts on the latest build? Sorry I've been quiet this week- business is a cruel mistress.
     
  11. thanerion

    thanerion Chieftain

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    Testing in progress ;-)
     
  12. skodkim

    skodkim Chieftain

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    There seems to a couple of errors in the options file:
    Spoiler :

    /*
    CSD Beliefs and Traits
    1 = Beliefs and Traits Enabled (Default)
    2 = Beliefs and Traits Disabled
    */

    INSERT INTO CSD (Type, Value)
    VALUES ('CSD_BONUSES', 2);

    /*
    Fix for Mausoleum of Halicarnassus (Wonders of the Ancient World DLC)
    1 = Fix Enabled (Default)
    2 = Fix Disabled
    */

    INSERT INTO CSD (Type, Value)
    VALUES ('ANCIENT_WONDERS', 2);
    Going to play my first game of CiV with CSD for a long time and I'm looking forward to it!

    \Skodkim
     
  13. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Chieftain

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    There's an error in the Buildingclass for the Grand Canal.
    Code:
    <Row>
    	<Type>BUILDINGCLASS_GRAND_CANAL</Type>
    	<DefaultBuilding>BUILDING_GRAND_[COLOR="Red"]ADMIRALY[/COLOR]</DefaultBuilding>
    	<Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_GRAND_CANAL</Description>
    	<MaxGlobalInstances>1</MaxGlobalInstances>
    </Row>
    BUILDING_GRAND_ADMIRALY (sic.) should be BUILDING_GRAND_CANAL.

    Only found it because the TooltipWriter code we have in CEP that formulates the pedia and TechTree stumbled over a secondary error that made the Cost of this Wonder as NULL.
    It went looking for the DefaultBuilding and couldn't find it so made the Cost NULL, which in turn... well you get the drift.
     
  14. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    I'll fix those two problems now that I'm back in town. I'll upload a new version soon enough.
    G
     
  15. LukeHro

    LukeHro Chieftain

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    Hi,
    I like playing with exaggerated number of city states and there's one single problem for me: internal city connections that have to pass trough city state territory while not friendly with them. Do you think you could do something in your mod, based on diplomats, that will grant rights of passage (especially for city connections, not necessarily for units) even if not friendly.
    I was thinking for example that as long as you have a diplomat on a state's territory this will make city connections work as if they were friend/ally. Or any other method you think will go best with the spirit of this great mod.
    Thanks
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    I'll look at the DLL, but I'm pretty sure that the 'city-connections availability' element is part of the 'becoming friends/allies' logic of city-states. Not to sound sassy, but you could just become friends with the city-states, ya know? :)
    G
     
  17. LukeHro

    LukeHro Chieftain

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    You right actually, I could become friend. I just got BNW and play my first round without mods. I used your before the dlc. In my current run I'm ally with most states on continent without gifting a dime, yet one state between my cities didn't became friend from quests. But with your mod ,is true, no gifting and as far as I recall I'd use diplomats rather then the gifts mechanics.
    Anyway if you like the idea...or maybe you can push it more: allow city connection only with allys or with the new mechanic.
     
  18. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Okay, v22 inbound for full release! I've done a little bit more debugging and play-testing this afternoon/evening, and I'm pretty happy with where CSD is at this point. The new sources of votes give religion and ideology more weight in the World Congress, and the new WC resolutions (particularly the AAC) give non-science players a chance to cripple the Science Victory. All in all, the mod makes the WC much more useful.

    Here's the full breakdown of changes:

    New Resolutions

    1.) AAC (Aerospace Advisory Council) - Gives a -25% production penalty when building SS parts, +25% gold cost for SS parts and +25% faith cost for engineers. Designed to hurt Spaceship victory.

    2.) Treasure Fleet project (available at start of WC) - following tiers:

    a.) Bronze: Frigate and 2 happiness.
    b.) Silver: Admiral and 3 free maintenance for military units.
    c.) Gold: Grand Canal

    'Grand Canal' world wonder - grants 1 free trade route, and the Treasure Fleet promotion (+1 sight, +1 movement, +10% Strength and heal outside borders for all non-sub/carrier naval units).

    3.) Modern Era project (unlocks at Replaceable Parts): Global Wargames

    a.) Bronze: Infantry and 3 free maintenance for military units.
    b.) Silver: Great General and 100% Tourism for 20 turns.
    c.) Gold: +25% attack power for 30 turns.

    Tweaks

    1.)Added +25% empire-wide tourism boosts to Radio and Computers (so 50% total, followed by 100% at Internet).

    2.) Tweaks to WC vote logic for existing CSD resolutions.

    3.) Tweaked Ideology unrest rates (was at 1 unhappy per 10 citizens, is now 1 unhappy per 6 citizens) and Global Ideology unrest rate doubled from WC resolution.

    4.) Warsaw Pact removed (end-game was a bit crowded, esp. with new national wonders).

    5.) New artwork for a few buildings (Kwadjh's excellent submissions to the civfanatics database)

    6.) Building/Unit costs for CSD stuff tweaked slightly (more expensive, marginally) - production % boosts for buildings increased across the board.

    7.) Tooltip/Text cleanup and correction.

    8.) Grand Temple gives 1 vote in WC for every 4 cities following your religion.

    9.) Forum Romanum now 'Roman Forum,' grants a free Great Diplomat instead of two Emissaries.

    10.) World's Fair unlocks at Industrialization (as it should)

    New Buildings

    a.) WTO: +25% Food and Gold in the city where it is built. Produces 4 Paper. Receive one free vote, and one vote in the World Congress for every Declaration of Friendship you currently have with other players. (Freedom only)

    b.) Hall of Honor: +15 Tourism and Faith in the city where it is built. Produces 4 Paper. Receive one free vote, and one vote in the World Congress for every enemy capital you control. (Autocracy Only)

    c.) Palace of Science and Culture: +25% Science and Culture in the city where it is built. Produces 4 Paper. Receive one free vote, and one vote in the World Congress for every Research Agreement you have. (Order Only)

    Version 22 is not savegame compatible. Backup v21 if you want to continue an old game!

    v22 will be on the workshop and here on civfanatics shortly.
    G
     
  19. thanerion

    thanerion Chieftain

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    Are there any issues expected to arise when upgrading between the "older" .22 and the newer .22?

    I'm currently testing the .22 version and it seems really cool - Piety suddenly became an option and I like it. I will soon be able to say if the tourism / culture victory boost is too low / good / too high.

    I am also very eager to check out how "controlled capitals" vs "DoFs" vs "RAs" work. I expect that the capitals wonder will be much, much weaker, since it's actually not very hard to get DoFs and RAs with AI, even those that follow different ideology. I currently cannot say it for certain, but I expect that there will be a need to upgrade the "controlled capitals" votes to 2 per capital instead of 1 to compensate (since you can have DoFs and RAs with every civ, and if you control every capital you simply win ;-) )
     
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    There are some tweaks, mostly balance- I'd go ahead and finish your current v22 game. There are differences in the dll, so I wouldn't try to upgrade mid-game.

    I agree that the ideology votes may end up needing a balance pass- time will tell. The one advantage of the Controlled Capitals vote is that it comes as a result of conquest, thus is more of a steamroll effect. The other two ideologies may accrue more votes, but they will not necessarily be strong civs. We'll see.
    G
     

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