City states & germany

[julystork]

Germany gets +combat vs city-states, but generally is conquering them better idea than envoying/suzeraining for bonuses?

 

[Onii-chan]

If there is a CS close to you with good resources and/or high pop, and it also happens to be a CS you don't really care about the abilities for (like let's say Jerusalem or something), then I'd rather capture it pretty early. For the most part though, I'd rather stay friendly with them for bonuses

Also Germany's combat bonus is pretty irrelevant as city states aren't exactly hard to conquer if you want to so I wouldn't think much about that

 

[fubi]

Capture everything that isn't Toronto

And that +combat bonus isn't too bad, means you only need a couple warriors and archers to get the job done, no need for much commitment early on.

 

[Hans Lemurson]

It's a pretty useless ability. The only situations where you'd want to conquer a city-state with Germany are those where you'd want to conquer a city-state with any civ. It just lets you do it a turn or two quicker.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Germany's unique ability is called the Hansa. Everything else are just placeholders

 

[Bigv32]

Germany's unique ability is called the Hansa. Everything else are just placeholders

This is true. Nothing else is needed, but the developers still felt like giving them another district on top of that.

 

[Victoria]

Yes killing it and taking it over is a powerful option.
To answer the question, as Fred I would only take a CS if it was going to get in the way of my optimal hansa build initially. i.e it is in the way.
If they are too far away as in quite a few games I play, it does have advantages but taking your troops over there while building your core can be risky.

To do that every game and make the flavour less when you are going to win anyway seems like just following the same old formula.
Most of us play Single Player and there to enjoy. I fully understand that winning in an OP way is a way many on this forum seem to play. I personally have taken more civs out when they get iffy early than CS. I prefer the extra flavor they give.

 

[Captain Potato]

Germany's unique ability is called the Hansa. Everything else are just placeholders

IMO the extra district could be dropped and Germany would still be in good shape. Make Germany's ability the extra military slot and make Barbarossa's ability the city state bonus. That would put them more in line with Greece, say (extra card plus unique district; wild card better than military, but hansa better than acropolis).

But I don't get why so many seem to think the city state bonus is bad. To answer the OP, hell yes take the city states. Civ VI is all about those early bonuses. The unique suzy bonuses, while a lot of them are really cool, they don't help you as much as an easily conquered city added to your empire in the ancient period. It'll be much later before you get that unique bonus, and you aren't guaranteed to keep it. Win the early game with Germany and you steamroll the mid.

 

[jaegybomb]

Hansa alone makes them a great civ, the policy slot pushes them to top 3. City state bonus is useless and the extra district has diminishing returns but would have been pretty decent if they didn't already get a free one from hansa.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

The unique suzy bonuses, while a lot of them are really cool, they don't help you as much as an easily conquered city added to your empire in the ancient period. It'll be much later before you get that unique bonus, and you aren't guaranteed to keep it

City states aren't just about Suzerain bonus. An industrial CS can give you +4 production in every city. Commercial means a lot of gold as you are likely to have a lot of Commercial Hubs anyways. Cultural or Scientific CS aren't as strong in the late game because you won't have tons of Theater Squares or Campuses, but early the +2 you get for a single envoy (or for free if they are close to you and you meet them first) brings you to key techs/civics much faster. Religious CS are more situational and you could take them over after you get your Pantheon if you don't go for Religion. As for Militaristic CS, i actually like them early as they speed up Builders/Settlers production in your capital noticeably (again, not that strong later, but good early when you may want to capture them).

 

[elitetroops]

Commercial means a lot of gold as you are likely to have a lot of Commercial Hubs anyways. Cultural or Scientific CS aren't as strong in the late game because you won't have tons of Theater Squares or Campuses

Depends on your play style. I find scientific city states to be the best, since no matter what people say, science is still king. +8 or +12 science/Campus from city states is massive. If those city states include Geneva or Stockholm, it's still a lot better. Commercial Hubs are really not that strong. Maybe if you happen to have a couple of yellow city states nearby for +8 gold/CH they would be somewhat useful, but otherwise a focus on campuses and industrial zones yields better results.

I'm still undecided on whether Toronto or Hong Kong deserves the title of best Industrial city state. Regardless of victory condition, I find myself building mainly district projects in the late game. This means Hong Kong effectively gives +20% production in every city. The +20% production also applies to spaceship production, and most importantly to chops and great people putting production into space projects. This bonus, coupled with faster campus projects, gives Hong Kong a clear edge in the last stages of a science victory. Toronto is more useful earlier, in particular to get that empire wide power grid up, which certainly also is very powerful. But if I had to choose, I wouldn't automatically pick Toronto.

As for Germany, yeah they have way too many strong bonuses. The city state bonus is probably the weakest of all their bonuses, well after the U-Boat of course, but it's also only an additional bonus to the free military policy. And it can still on it's own be situationally more useful than some other leader abilities, like Harald's or Catherine's.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Well, my post was mostly to point that CS are extremely valuable even if you are not Suzerain, not try and decide which one is the best. Partial quotes rarely respect the meaning of a post.
Anyway, at least Cultural and Scientific CS are more situational as you won't have many campuses if you don't go for science victory while the gold you can get from Hub+Commercial CS (it seems like i always have a couple of those around anyway) help your economy every game. Most people have many Hubs for Trade Routes (i'm still not totally convinced they are that great, at least not until you have enough of other districts) so they will get more from Commercial CS that Scientific CS, but even then i wouldn't kill a Scientific CS early, if only for that easy +2 science.

I think we agree more than we disagree here

 

[ShakaKhan]

Something else being overlooked here is that Germany will have more diversity of districts than other civs, Being able to have 3 districts in a city from size one, and 6 or 7 as they hit the mid-teens in size, Germany will have more of the districts that other civs skip because of the limits. Since each type of CS grants bonuses to different types of districts, civs other than Germany may elect to take the city and its territory since they only have 1 or 2 campuses, theater squares, etc. Germany won't have a theater square in every city, but they are more likely to have a few of them so the bonus will be compounded more. Similarly with religion, I find Germany to be the most practical civ to work on your religion with (save Russia) because they can afford to have a holy site in 1/4 to 1/2 of their cities, so religious city state bonuses compound more with Germany. So I find I'm less likely as Germany to conquer a city-state than with other civs.

Also note that it' is a flat bonus, not a percentage bonus, so it doesn't scale over the game. Increasing a warrior's strength from 20 to 27 has a much greater impact than increasing a mech infantry's strength from 90 to 97. So do it early if you feel the need to exercise the bonus.

I think it's more of a bonus like Genghis had in civ5; it's not so much about conquering city states as much as it is that you can declare war on someone who has multiple suzerein and roll over their units more effectively without having to worry about trying to flip them first, which is more difficult than it was in civ5. You could also use them for XP farming, but I personally don't find that to be a great use for city-states, maybe others' mileage varies.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

Also note that it' is a flat bonus, not a percentage bonus, so it doesn't scale over the game. Increasing a warrior's strength from 20 to 27 has a much greater impact than increasing a mech infantry's strength from 90 to 97. So do it early if you feel the need to exercise the bonus.

It's been found that what actually matters is the absolute strength difference, not the relative. This means that the difference between a Germany Warrior vs. a CS Warrior is the same as a Germany Mech Infantry vs. a CS Mech Infantry. Given that (from my experience) CS's are upgrading more their units, the strength impact is the same throughout the game.

Of course, there's the strategic consideration that a new city earlier has more impact too.

 

[Victoria]

Just that extra district means a lot. A lot more early lock downs.

 

[Turrdy]

I actually was in dire need (well not that much) of Barbarossas +7 agaisnt CS when I declared war on Monty who was suzerain of some CS. I did not conquer (and did not try to) any of Montys CS but it came in handy when I had to fend off the couple of units they threw at me. All in all it's a handy ability in some cases but not very game changing...