Civ 3 GOTM#3 *Spoiler* talks

[ProPain]

Once again I feel your pain Rhandom. Played an emperor level game yesterday and the respawning drove me mad. Every civ respawned in some forsaken corner of the map. In the end I had the zulus left and when I conquered their last city they respawned on an entirely different, not yet discovered island with heaps of units. In the end I got 950 AD conquest which could easily have been 400AD or mayby even 0AD when the respawning would have been a little more convenient for me. But it's all in the game and the conquest made me forget the gotm domination vic a little

ProPain

 

[Aeson]

SirPleb -

The way I tested seemed to show that claiming coastal and sea tiles didn't count towards domination. By not building a couple of 3x3 cities, i could build 3 times the number of 1x3 cities on the coast that also claimed 3 coastal tiles each. Also, having cultural boarders expand over the coast while at the domination limit, didn't trigger domination. I can't see how coastal tiles could count towards the % needed.

It could very well be that coastal tiles count towards the total number of land tiles though. For the most part, the larger the landmass, the smaller the ratio of coastal tiles to landmass tiles. That would mean that the larger the landmass, the less % of land tiles that would have to be claimed for domination. That fits with both our testing results.

Another thing that I didn't test, that very well could have made the difference in your testing, is that the AI was given another city, allowing more land tiles to be claimed by you. In my tests, the AI always had a set number of land tiles claimed, and a set number of cities. Maybe there is a modifier to the % needed based on the number of tiles (or cities) that the AI currently has. That could also be the reason that I was seeing the sliding percentage, as the ratio between my landmass and the AI's varied according to the total landmass. The larger maps (about 5%), the AI had a significantly smaller % of the total landmass than on the smaller map (about 10%).

Whatever the factors involved, Domination certainly seems to be the most complex of the victory conditions to figure out. I think it is a good thing to leave in the GOTM's. On "builder" type games, it adds a risk/reward factor in the score (be safe and only claim as what I have now? Or risk domination and claim a few more spaces?), as well as rewarding those with a better grasp of how domination works. Without domination all the games end up being basically the same.

 

[Spoonman]

Ahh i have finished gotm#3 in 1804 with a surprise domination victory (surprise cos i never new about it until now heh).

Must say im a bit dissapointed - having conquered all the civs leaving 1 city behind of each, i was planning on milking the game until 2050 over the next 2 weeks, seeing as i spent most of the game either at war or preparing for war.
Now what am i gonna do until Feb the 2nd huh?

It's a weird feeling when you march into one of 4 remaining Indian cities only to be met by the ending popup halfway thru a turn.
Not even a nice ending sequence to soothe the bloodlust.

If it wasn't gotm i'd be reloading my turn and continue building my cities and score up...

After scraping thru the last gotm (with 2 cities at the 750ad mark to a 1992 space victory) gotm#3 was to be my triumph over the AI. Repayment for the spanking he dished out last month. While i certainly showed him who's boss my vengeance isn't yet quenched.

Bring on the English!

 

[Dild]

I agree completely. I wait until the game is completely in hand to look at the spoiler threads, right now I'm just counting spaces and trying to decide whether I should conquer that one last city or not... Finally a map that seems somewhat well balanced between the early conquest and 2050 bloat options. If I do decide to wait until 2050, I'm going to time the building of the UN so that I can lose diplomatically then Maybe 2049 , just to be sure I can get that final vote in.

Aeson why would u want a diplomatic defeat? what is the difference between all victory conditions, e.g. why should conquest victory give more points than the space ship victory?

Would u please explain the difference between all victory conditions point vise? e.g. early conquest or late

 

[SirPleb]

Originally posted by Aeson
... seemed to show that claiming coastal and sea tiles didn't count towards domination ...

When I started my testing (just looking for the domination threshold in the GOTM#3 map at that time) it became clear that something other than a simple count of land tiles affects the players total count. Otherwise my testing using peninsulas would have worked.

I have gone back and retested and I think it is definite that coastal tiles are, at least sometimes, counted toward the player's total. What I did this time was to create a pattern of overlapping towns which brought my total to precisely 5 tiles under what I think is the player threshold on this map. One of the towns is on the coast, placed so that if its borders expand, it will bring 6 more coastal tiles into the sphere of influence. Because of the overlapping towns around it, its expansion will not bring any additional land tiles into the sphere of influence. When I add a library to this town and play four turns, domination victory results!

As a quick cross-check (I got to wondering if maybe coastal tiles count for 1/2 tile each which could explain some things) I used the same setup, did not add a library, and added one more overlapping town which claimed an additional 4 land tiles. This did not trigger domination. So 6 coastal tiles count for more toward the player's total than 4 land tiles. I think we can safely guess that the coastal tiles count as 1 tile each.

Aeson, I don't know how to reconcile this finding with your test. I haven't been able to think of a more complex theory which accounts for both sets of observations. It seems definite that coastal tiles at least sometimes count toward the player's limit. The simplest explanation by far would be that this is just a little(!) bug, that coastal tiles are counted as land for domination purposes. Do you still have some of your test maps to recheck this? I can email you the test map which triggers domination by coastal tiles, if you'd like to check it for any other possible explanation. (I'm not posting it here because it pretty much gives away my GOTM#3 score. )

 

[Aeson]

I can't think of a reason why we would have different test results. I got rid of all my saves and maps (like to keep a clean hard drive) shortly after testing, though it wouldn't take too long to edit some other maps. The way I built my maps, I'm sure that the percentage of Coastal tiles to total and land tiles is much less than in any randomly generated map. Also I didn't have any sea squares, just the coastal and then ocean. Either of those factors could have something to do with it. Needless to say that I won't be counting tiles and trying for any "maxed" 2050 scores in the near GOTM future... just too difficult to figure out.

 

[Grey Fox]

Why count the tiles on this map to not get a Domination Victory?

Do as I does instead... build cities on all the GOOD land... give a **** in the Icy areas, and mountaineous areas... those areas won't give you any population at all...

 

[Aeson]

Well, judging from GOTM2, scoring is heavily weighted towards territory claimed, not population. A size 3 city is worth nearly as much as a size 30 from a scoring standpoint as long as the borders are expanded.

 

[FriendlyFire]

I had a look at what culture is required for a cultural victory
and it went from 20 000 to 100 000
Iam mean WTH ???? I've got 9Major wonders + 3 minor wonders
67 culture per turn. I hit 10,000 mark 5 squares. Yay and had a look and now its 100,000 to get to the six squares . It's now 1989AD and I only have 14,123

So has any1 finnished with a cultural victory ? And Yes This is 1.16F this wasn't documented in the changes.
Look at the screen shot It says I NEED 100,000 >>

 

[Grey Fox]

You win If you get 20 000 culture in one city or 80 000 culture in your hole empire, the closest culture can't have Higher then 40 000 in that case...

Or I think you must have twice the culture as the number two culture and higher then 80 000

 

[denyd]

It's 1200AD and the Persians left the planet at my request in about 500AD, the pissy French are being toasted (down to 5 cities from 15). The Japanese, who keep taunting me are about to become sushi under my riders hoofs, I may let Babs live in the artic north. Then it's time to spread my blue meanies across the rest of MY continent. I've contacted the other 3 and the English seem to have the upper hand on that continent. I've never really gotten into the mode to build fleets to conquer remote locations, so I'll probably settle in and go for a spaceship win.

 

[swattek]

I started off pretty good, I founded two cities before I squashed the Japanese(I thought, they respawned). At any rate, I tore down Kyoto and started in on the Persians.
After I had taken two lesser Persian cities and headed for the capital, I noticed that the French were doing the same thing. I got to the Capital first but the French and their damn horsemen quickly put an end to that nonsense. They raped me and the Babylonians.
Now I have only two cities left. I have retired.
It occurred to me though that if Civilization 3 were more historically accurate, the French would not be so tough. In actual history with only a few exceptions(Napoleon the Corsican, Charlemagne the Gaul), the French have done nothing but march into battle armed with white flags.
Just damn!

 

[Spoonman]

aw swatek! you should've hung in there
it's fairly easy for your captured cities to culture flip back to you
then theres the challenge of rebuilding your decimated empire
think revenge!:crazyeyes

 

[Badluck]

Cultural victory whit 20,000 point is possible i won with 20,000 point in 1892 i was gaining 93 per turn, but it was a warlord game, but i guess it would be fairly easy to succeed in a regent level sine you still have 150 years of playing

 

[Badluck]

i don'T think having twice more culture then your ennemy work cuz i think i once had it and i didn'T work...
there was 8 civilization whit me and i had more then 1/2 of the screen in cultural history, and others only had approximately 1/14 of the culture and i didn'T win....

 

[Grey Fox]

Once I won when I had 117 000 cultural points, And I don't know why... it must have been duoble my enemies points or something... just an educated guess.

And another time at 97 000... so why?

 

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Badluck
i don'T think having twice more culture then your ennemy work cuz i think i once had it and i didn'T work...
there was 8 civilization whit me and i had more then 1/2 of the screen in cultural history, and others only had approximately 1/14 of the culture and i didn'T win....

The culture graph shows the ratios of culture produced by each Civ for the current turn, not the ratios of total culture for each Civ. You do need to have twice the total culture of your nearest competitor for a cultural victory. Either that or get 20,000 culture in one city.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Couldn't take it any more
I had entered into Anarchy for the 9th time since the beginning to avoid the crash. It was then I realised how many turns it is costing me. I have

LOST AROUND 100 TURNS
ABOUT 2MIL POPULATION < STARVATION
MONEY + PRODUCTION < STARVATION
MY CULTURAL VICTORY

(In anarchy the time you spend revolting means no science no taxes and building literaly means your losing all those turns. Ontop of that large cities which beneit from terrain/food bonus go backwards do to starvations which in turn reduces production , science and tax. Finally no culture)

That just about cripples any chances for getting a good score.
AS you can see I control the entire map with the last size2 Egyption citiy landlocked and surrounded. Building up for a cultural victory when I realise it wasn't going to happen when I entered a 10th Anarchy to avoid a crash. Just finnished it there. with a crap score too.

Oh for shame

 

[Badluck]

oh really, thanks you for the info Aeson

 

[Aeson]

Originally posted by FriendlyFire
I had a look at what culture is required for a cultural victory
and it went from 20 000 to 100 000
Iam mean WTH ???? I've got 9Major wonders + 3 minor wonders
67 culture per turn. I hit 10,000 mark 5 squares. Yay and had a look and now its 100,000 to get to the six squares . It's now 1989AD and I only have 14,123

The 14,123/100,000 isn't the culture needed for a cultural win. It is the culture needed in that city for the cultural borders to expand again. If you look in a newly founded city, it should show 0/10 there... obviously you need more than 10 culture for a cultural victory. To see your total culture, go to the cultural advisor screen (F2).

In my response to Badluck, I should have included the fact that you need at least 80,000 total culture as well as double the nearest competitor's total culture.