[Civ 5] Rise of Mankind design discussion

City Unit stacks per specialized buildings !!!
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=389787&page=2

A must have imho.

I prefer the side thread's suggestion of boarder forts like "Limes" or "Maginot line" style defensive structures. Where you can "store" many units in one hex on your boarders outside your cultural border. Add in ZOC and having to move out of the forts to engage in combat and you have something useful. Unfortunately this wont work since it really needs the idea of "claimed" territory as well as worked or cultural territory, because "real" borders are usually further out than the civ v cultural borders.
 
I lack the skills but would love to help out some way. Please let me know if you have any simple but annoying or tedious tasks that I could chew through. Here are some of my thoughts -

Phase 1: The tech tree really needs some help. I liked Civ IV Tech tree and I would use that as a model.
a.) Rename "Penicillin" to "Modern Medicine" or "Western Medicine." The technology for discovering penicillin existed prior to its discovery. What made penicillin so important in the 20th century is that it was mass produced and was the advent of the pharmaceutical industry.

You could have "Modern Medicine" as a researchable tech and "Penicillin" as a random event. For example, after "Modern Medicine" is teched, "A scientist working in a forest near Corinth has discovered Penicillin (+1 Population)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_penicillin

b.) bring back "Artillery" and expand "Dynamite." Artillery is a tricky one, because cannons are artillery. You could have artillery as an earlier tech and then as newer techs are discovered (gunpowder, dynamite, etc) existing artillery units can be upgraded.

Dynamite makes nitroglycerin stable. In addition to warfare, dyanamite's used for building roads, developing mines/quarries (blowing up mountains). Dynamite should add some bonuses to production (mines/quarries), reduce build time for roads/railroads, and maybe even boost population since it is a safer way to use explosives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamite http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery

Phase 2: Redesigned improvements
a) the windmill is a tile enhancement, not a building!
b) bring back town development
c) make solar panel a tile improvement in desert

Phase 3: Miscellaneous
a) Resources - rework and expand resources. There are too few crop (rice, corn, potato, etc), livestock (goats are huge IRL!), and ocean (crab, clam, etc) resources. Those additional resources don't really need special bonuses, but add some diversity to the game.
b) Expand resource gameplay - Crops and livestock developed with mankind and their cultivation was traded amongst civilizations. E.g. Potatoes are a New World crop. If food resources are isolated around the map then civs could trade for a new crop's seed to expand their food resources (after completing a trade for potato seed, a potato resource pops up somewhere in the civilization. Random events could lead to a new food resource popping up ("While exploring near Grand Rapids, your scout brought back corn seeds for the city of London.") for a civ leading to a more diverse food supply. Diverse food resources lead to population or happy bonus.
 
I prefer the side thread's suggestion of boarder forts like "Limes" or "Maginot line" style defensive structures. Where you can "store" many units in one hex on your boarders outside your cultural border. Add in ZOC and having to move out of the forts to engage in combat and you have something useful. Unfortunately this wont work since it really needs the idea of "claimed" territory as well as worked or cultural territory, because "real" borders are usually further out than the civ v cultural borders.

I thought about this while I was driving today. Had a 2 hour drive and no civ 5. :( I can see the idea of garrison; by my original suggestion had nothing to do with armies. I was suggesting for workers only. I had no intention of increasing defense in a city. AI issues are something else for what I was talking about.

That being said; I was thinking that if you build a granary you can hold 1 extra worker that gives you a bonus to food supply. If you build a workshop and had a great engineer your workshop is a small percentage better.

Here are buildings I thought of and there benefit to a "garrison" unit.
Granary - Worker - + food (all food type buildings work)
Barrack - Great General - + exp (all exp type buildings buildings work)
Workshop - Great engineer - + hammers buildings (All production type buildings work)
Forge - Great engineer - + hammers units (All production type buildings work)
Market - Great merchant - + gold (all market type buildings work)
Library - Great scientist - + science (all science type buildings work)

This allows for when you have more workers possibility to put them to use if your tiles are done; or you want to expand a city. It isn't an automatic I have more space or defense. This gives an ongoing use for "greats". I don't know how many greats people get in a game; but I don't get enough to see that is to powerful. I just see it as a perk to put them to another use. I see this working as you work your citizens for buildings that allow great production.

Again, I do not think you should garrison more armies. I do not think you should get more defenses. This is purely a civilian thing. Everyone has there opinion though; so those who want army stacks more power to you.

I thought were to put this part; so it is at end. To the border forts I can see that. Make a worker improvement of a fort. You can only place it outside your culture. Depending on your tech level you can build different kinds. Even within your tech level you can make different kinds. Maybe one that allows for fortified archers. Those narrow slits of castles. Would be hard to utilize swordsmen garrisoned in one; but archers could. One that is specialized to swordsmen. I see this more as a meeting point for when the enemy ai gets there.

EDIT:
If you loose a city with garrisoned units attacking force gets them. i.e. if you have a great engineer in there he was captured. You can risk him in a border city trying to get it built fast; but loose it and loose him. Risk / Reward.
 
@Zappara

So any news on this? Did you like the ideas I proposed in earlier posts?

Which direction are you going?
I'm pretty undecided still on what direction to go - I've liked most of the ideas that have been posted in this thread.

The current tech tree system in Civ 5 doesn't have all the "features" the Civ 4 tech tree had so organizing techs will be more difficult this time around and I can tell you all that the most painful process in RoM was creating the tech tree in such a way that those arrows didn't overlap anywhere and now in Civ 5 we don't have those AND reqs at all so we'll have to re-organize whole tree in a new way... I've even thought about dividing the tech tree to multiple screen with different category techs being in one scrollable page: like military on it's own page, art (cultural techs) on one tree, science, general advances, farming advances, golden/dark age techs, etc. but this method might be too confusing for the player.

My dream mod component/feature would be the removal of workers and the adoption of a CTP2 style public works system. Managing workers on a medium to small map isn't really a problem, but on big ones it's incredibly tedious. You want to put them on automate, but the AI for workers is always horrible.
I think we'll have to design such improvement system that it's not tedious to manage workers.

I think a cool addition would be to allow cities to be built in mountains. Everyone knows that this is possible, and quite frankly I'm surprised Firaxis hasn't included it yet.

Most towns that are in mountainous areas are smaller, no giant cities lean on one side of a mountain. However, the few that I've been to have been very touristy as well.
I'm not sure if cities can be allowed to build to mountains - in Civ 4 this was prevented and it actually required SDK changes before you could mod such feature into the game. Might be same case with Civ 5... haven't really looked for this kind of info yet.

Looking at the OP for the first time in a while, I'm surprised I'm not on any of the lists after I told you (Zappara) specifically that I'm willing to help in some fields.
-Coders - I'm able to code in Lua right now and the DLL if certain things happen when the DLL is released.

-XML - Oh please, any programmer can do this

-2D artist - This is also fairly simple for me

-3D artist - this is what I talked to you about at the bottom of page 3

You can sign me up for those four fields.
Added you to team. :)

I thought this might be a big enough 'HUZZAH!' to require it's own post:
I just read the HOWTO: New Unit Creation thread and it appears that I will be able to take all the 3d art from Civ IV RoM and put it in Civ V RoM. Now where's that 'huzzah!'? Anyway, I'll still need to animate a few of the absent animations to work from 4 to 5. And now it's time to sleep; I have a big day of modding tomorrow: Fix AMM lua, take a last stab at terraforming, put in new AMM units, import test 3d building/unit for AMM, import shitloads of Civ IV models.
That's awesome. So you convert nifs to gr2 format or what? How difficult it is to learn to do this animation stuff? I fiddled with some nifs in Civ 4 but didn't really have time to learn how the units were modelled...

Phase 1: The tech tree really needs some help. I liked Civ IV Tech tree and I would use that as a model.
a.) Rename "Penicillin" to "Modern Medicine" or "Western Medicine." The technology for discovering penicillin existed prior to its discovery. What made penicillin so important in the 20th century is that it was mass produced and was the advent of the pharmaceutical industry.

You could have "Modern Medicine" as a researchable tech and "Penicillin" as a random event. For example, after "Modern Medicine" is teched, "A scientist working in a forest near Corinth has discovered Penicillin (+1 Population)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_penicillin

b.) bring back "Artillery" and expand "Dynamite." Artillery is a tricky one, because cannons are artillery. You could have artillery as an earlier tech and then as newer techs are discovered (gunpowder, dynamite, etc) existing artillery units can be upgraded.

Dynamite makes nitroglycerin stable. In addition to warfare, dyanamite's used for building roads, developing mines/quarries (blowing up mountains). Dynamite should add some bonuses to production (mines/quarries), reduce build time for roads/railroads, and maybe even boost population since it is a safer way to use explosives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamite http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery

Phase 2: Redesigned improvements
a) the windmill is a tile enhancement, not a building!
b) bring back town development
c) make solar panel a tile improvement in desert
RoM (in Civ 4) has tech Explosives which kind of holds the knowledge about dynamite, nitroglycerin and other explosive materials and tech Modern Healthcare which was placed to era where penicillin, antibiotics, organ transfers etc were invented. Civ 5 has some bad tech names so we'll have to rename them to RoM equivalents. If you want to think about what techs we could add, check out first these tech tree pics: part 1 and part 2. Note that we'll try to include techs that have had impact on humankind's development and if there's several similar techs on same era, those are usually combined into a single tech under a more generalized name.

Some other thing I want to talk about a bit:

Lately I've noticed a trend among some Civ 5 players where they move back to Civ 4 and more specifically to RoM. What does this tell to us? ;)

I just checked the state of some previous RoM versions downloads and here's one example:

File name: RiseOfMankind2.62Full.rar
File size: 189.35 MB
Downloads this week: 10
Downloads total: 151,348
Popularity: 100%

So even v2.62 still gets downloads. Since it was the last version (I think) that wasn't available as a torrent we'll see here how much the mod actually was downloaded. As for newest version's torrent file, any time I've checked it, there has been 50-90 downloaders and this version has been available since the summer... how many downloads is the total number? :D v2.91's regular download file from Filefront's site has been downloaded about 35000 times, plus this version is also available as torrent. To me these numbers are just huge! There's more RoM players than there's players in some mmorpgs! :D
 
Tech tree by strategyonly looks good, but RoM for V should have more than RoM for IV.
These techs are good for me but can you give it more?

My new idea:
Lower mainetance for sleeping units.
 
Tech tree by strategyonly looks good, but RoM for V should have more than RoM for IV.
These techs are good for me but can you give it more?

My new idea:
Lower mainetance for sleeping units.

If you lower maintenance for sleeping units you should lower defense for them. They are sleeping after all.
 
Wow, that's a great start. I'm curious, if you're gunna do the whole tech tree, you're gunna put in the transhuman era too right?

I cant figure out how to do that yet, i tried for like 4 hours, and it just does not show up?? I tried adding Stone and TransHuman:crazyeye: Its not "my" tech tree anyways, i borrowed it.


EDIT: Here is a list of the buildings that have been added so far:

Spoiler :
BUILDING_MAHABODHI_TEMPLE

BUILDING_DOCKS

BUILDING_ZIGGURAT_OF_MARDUK

BUILDING_THE_LABRYNTH

BUILDING_PARTHENON

BUILDING_TEMPLE_OF_HEAVEN

BUILDING_SPHINX

BUILDING_STATUE_OF_ZEUS

BUILDING_TEMPLE_OF_SOLOMON

BUILDING_ABBEY

BUILDING_KONG_MIAO

BUILDING_AQUEDUCT

BUILDING_MAUSOLEUM_OF_MAUSOLUS

BUILDING_NAZCA_LINES

BUILDING_ARTILLERY_RANGE

BUILDING_CIRCUS_MAXIMUS

BUILDING_TERRACOTTA_ARMY

BUILDING_LITERARY_EPIC

BUILDING_GALILEO_TELESCOPE

BUILDING_SHAKESPEAR_THEATER

BUILDING_SEWER_SYSTEM

BUILDING_SUN_TZU_ART_OF_WAR

BUILDING_LEONARDO_WORKSHOP

BUILDING_THE_GRAND_MOSQUE

BUILDING_BACH_CATHEDRAL

BUILDING_AL_JABR

BUILDING_CITY_CLOCK

BUILDING_GUILD_HALL

BUILDING_EAST_INDIA_COMPANY

BUILDING_COPERNICUS_OBSERVATORY

BUILDING_PUBLISHING_HOUSE

BUILDING_GUTENBERG_BIBLE

BUILDING_FOUNDRY

BUILDING_PRISON

BUILDING_CONSTITUTION

BUILDING_PRINCIPIA_MATHEMATICA

BUILDING_MAGELLAN_VOYAGE

BUILDING_RANCH

BUILDING_DECLARATION_OF_INDEPENDENCE

BUILDING_HORSE_DERBY

BUILDING_THEORY_OF_EVOLUTION

BUILDING_WALL_STREET

BUILDING_WEALTH_OF_NATIONS

BUILDING_WAR_COLLEGE

BUILDING_MEGA_DAM

BUILDING_EDISON_LAB

BUILDING_POLICE_STATION

BUILDING_OIL_REFINERY

BUILDING_NAVAL_BASE

BUILDING_SUPERMARKET

BUILDING_TRANSCONTINENTAL_RAILROAD

BUILDING_AUTO_PLANT

BUILDING_RECYCLING_PLANT

BUILDING_MASS_TRANSIT

BUILDING_DRUG_STORE

BUILDING_CONTRACEPTION

BUILDING_TELECOMMUNICATIONS_NETWOR K

BUILDING_AIRBASE

BUILDING_CHEMICAL_PLANT

BUILDING_TEXTILE_MILL

BUILDING_FOOD_PROCESSING_PLANT

BUILDING_INDUSTRIAL_WAREHOUSE

BUILDING_INDUSTRIAL_SHIPYARD

BUILDING_INTERNATIONAL_AID_ORGANIZAT ION

BUILDING_SMALLPOX_ERADICATION

BUILDING_TELEVISION

BUILDING_HOLLYWOOD

BUILDING_SEMICONDUCTOR_PLANT

BUILDING_HUMAN_GENOME_PROJECT

BUILDING_SUPERCOMPUTER

BUILDING_AIRPORT

BUILDING_BIOTECH_INDUSTRIAL_PARK

BUILDING_INDUSTRIAL_ROBOTICS

BUILDING_NATIONAL_LABORATORY

BUILDING_GPS_SATELLITES

BUILDING_CURE_FOR_CANCER

BUILDING_CELL_TOWERS

BUILDING_SERVER_FARM

BUILDING_INTERNET

BUILDING_LARGE_HADRON_COLLIDER

BUILDING_BODY_EXCHANGE

BUILDING_GRID_ENERGY_STORAGE

BUILDING_CLOUD_COMPUTING_NETWORK

BUILDING_FUSION_POWER_PLANT

BUILDING_BIO_MEMORY_IMPLANT

BUILDING_QUANTUM_SUPERCOMPUTER

BUILDING_AI_CORE
 
Well it looks like a RoM fan decided to beat RoM makers to the next RoM? Who was that made by?

Anyway, one tech that would be missing -or should rename an existing tech for a more general name- is Optoelectronics (shorthand is Optronics) which substitutes photons for electrons. Wires would be replaced by optic cables and obsoletes silicon. This could lead to what is already on the tree as "Terra Computers" however it might as well just be renamed. Mostly the reason for Photonics (the science in studying & engineering photons) is the realized limits on everyday computers, hence it would lead to Quantum Computing/Terra Computers.
 
I will gladly help with the 2D artwork. How do I know what to do? Will you guys give me assignments or something like that?
 
I'm pretty undecided still on what direction to go - I've liked most of the ideas that have been posted in this thread.

The current tech tree system in Civ 5 doesn't have all the "features" the Civ 4 tech tree had so organizing techs will be more difficult this time around and I can tell you all that the most painful process in RoM was creating the tech tree in such a way that those arrows didn't overlap anywhere and now in Civ 5 we don't have those AND reqs at all so we'll have to re-organize whole tree in a new way... I've even thought about dividing the tech tree to multiple screen with different category techs being in one scrollable page: like military on it's own page, art (cultural techs) on one tree, science, general advances, farming advances, golden/dark age techs, etc. but this method might be too confusing for the player.

I think individual pages could be neat. As long as you provide proper links I think it would work. Your method reminds me of the Age of Empires style tech tree.

I cant figure out how to do that yet, i tried for like 4 hours, and it just does not show up?? I tried adding Stone and TransHuman:crazyeye: Its not "my" tech tree anyways, i borrowed it.


Yeah don't forget the Prehistoric and Transhuman Eras.

Also use this a a guide. It took me forever to write all the techs down by era and alpha order.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9711478&postcount=224
(note some AToM techs might be off since i wrote this before Civ Fuehrer updated his list)
 
Yeah don't forget the Prehistoric and Transhuman Eras.

Also use this a a guide. It took me forever to write all the techs down by era and alpha order.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9711478&postcount=224
(note some AToM techs might be off since i wrote this before Civ Fuehrer updated his list)
You can just copy/paste over the Modern - Galactic Era from here

EDIT: For kicks, I decided to count up all the techs and it came out to 392. That's counting all the eras and all the new stuff that Hydromancerx hasn't updated(which a lot of the new stuff is just replacing other techs but there are a few new ones).

EDIT2: @ Zappara
Is there a reason I wasn't added to the list of coders? I'm able...
 
:bump: So after a little over a month now, Civ V's true colors have been revealed and seems to lack quite a few modding abilities that Civ IV had even from the start. I for one have pretty much turned off my interests for Civ V and just do other things for now and when I do want to mod in the near future, I'll probably just mod for Civ IV.
 
:bump: So after a little over a month now, Civ V's true colors have been revealed and seems to lack quite a few modding abilities that Civ IV had even from the start. I for one have pretty much turned off my interests for Civ V and just do other things for now and when I do want to mod in the near future, I'll probably just mod for Civ IV.

I completely agree here, the LACK of modding tools (which they said were more:mad:) not even close. I dont even play that much, it is just not modding minded (yet). And the way they set it up, is so senseless, a bit here, ten para's down, more there, five para's down, more there, its just that you have to look every other place to do stuff, unlike Civ IV. Heck cant even look at the "Lua." How do you set your gold, science (no idea):confused: It really lacks style, seems cartoonish to me.(My opinion)
 
RoM is the reality-version, isn’t it?

1 unit per tile seems to be a problem.
It is when you see the tiles as a 1-on-1 replacement for the squares of good old CIV.

Pro-tiles :With tiles we can have a better development of tactics in the sense of better micromanagement of the battles, but is complicated to move units ... etc.
Con-tiles :We do not want to lose the possibility of army buildup
Even an army spread over more tiles can be managed by new grouping commands

We want the best of both worlds

We can have all that if we realise that a bunch of tiles represents one former square. Do not think in the easy 1 on 1 translation from square to tile.

More-tile City : If a city is more than 1 tile, you can put more armies in it and still have the benefits of 1 tile per unit fighting… starting as 1 tile village growing to more-tile cities, there is natural growth, thus cities can have more of the same function, adding up production in a naturel way, adding up to pollution, like reality.

Scale: The maps of the game as it is now represent one country and not a continent!

RoM (AND) made Civ4 realisic for anybody with historical sense. It was great!
Now you (all) want RoM for CiV5 to make THE change for the good. Bravo
So I tried helping to look for a break by looking at it from a different perspective.
Just give me an answer please: is my idea impossible (wait for Civ6) or you cannot do it yet (waiting for source code) or you think it is stupid, but you are being polite? ;)

Viator
 
RoM (AND) made Civ4 realisic for anybody with historical sense. It was great!
Now you (all) want RoM for CiV5 to make THE change for the good. Bravo
So I tried helping to look for a break by looking at it from a different perspective.
Just give me an answer please: is my idea impossible (wait for Civ6) or you cannot do it yet (waiting for source code) or you think it is stupid, but you are being polite? ;)

Viator

There have been many ideas on variations to and the problems of the one unit per tile game mechanic. Yours is one. I think people are still mulling over the possibilities as we are still in the lets discuss ideas phase.

We have not really begun to look at what is feasible or what we can do, in part because not all of the tools needed are available yet.

(I feel that one unit per tile is a great battle mechanic but rediculus at the map scale we use.)
 
well you could at least start modding the tech tree, Lemmy101 gifted us with a great tool that makes tech tree modding an easy-go.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=395209

and also

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=393326

see post 306 ie it has been done, but the question is "Should the tech tree be the same in Civ V as in Civ IV?". RoM is based on a Civ III mod which is where the tech tree started but it changed since Civ IV is not Civ III and V is not IV so there will be some changes there too.
 
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