[Civ 5] Rise of Mankind design discussion

@Zappara,

Well, seems like you already figured everything out.
Have also made a draft myself so im quite eager to see your own ideas.
Hardly everything at this point :lol: When I think about any game feature I try to add some more depth to it but still try to keep it fun - in Civ 4: RoM I think we had bit too much depth and less fun part (too much micromanaging). For this reason I'd rather not include both civic and social policy systems... one system should be enough.


On last weekend I tried to make a new improvement (like Shaft mine upgrade) but for some unknown reason I couldn't get it to work no matter what I did - the game didn't show the new improvement and I triple checked everything and it should have worked. The mine did show in sql db that it was supposed to be upgraded to next improvement type but there was no entry in db for the new improvement. The whole process also broke the tech tree from the point where the new improvement would have been made available (Iron Working)... this puzzles me... like, is the cause in the graphics/icons or what??!? I hope that the whole Civ 5 modding won't be this tedious task :rolleyes:
 
On last weekend I tried to make a new improvement (like Shaft mine upgrade) but for some unknown reason I couldn't get it to work no matter what I did - the game didn't show the new improvement and I triple checked everything and it should have worked. The mine did show in sql db that it was supposed to be upgraded to next improvement type but there was no entry in db for the new improvement. The whole process also broke the tech tree from the point where the new improvement would have been made available (Iron Working)... this puzzles me... like, is the cause in the graphics/icons or what??!? I hope that the whole Civ 5 modding won't be this tedious task :rolleyes:

I tend to mod in steps:

Make thing -> see if thing is available in game -> add to thing -> see if it broke -> add sql/lua to thing -> see if thing broke -> add art to thing -> see if thing art works -> release.
 
Personally I'd really like to see some pre-ancient era. Although I'm sure you're probably already including it. It'd be great to start with almost nothing and actually having to tech for worker, pre-warrior unit, pre-scout-unit, settlers or teching for the ability to leave your terretory, making first contact with other players or to work certain tiles.
 
For anyone interested (probably the Hydro Man(cerx) for the most part), I wrote up a nice little intro for the Civ V version of ATOM along with some redone techs that seemed off or redundant to me.

To keep from being redundant I suggest you just join this project and work on the Galactic Era side of the project. Unlike last time we can incorporate that kind of stuff into the project from the beginning rather than trying to fit it in awkwardly later.

@Hydro, any dance instructor will tell you that getting people to fight in formation is dance, so the drill that soldiers still do is a form of dance.

Oh belive me I have done enough "drill downs" back in marching band to know that formations could be considered a type of dance.

@Hydro, any dance instructor will tell you that getting people to fight in formation is dance, so the drill that soldiers still do is a form of dance.

Early stone working, beads and jars for example were done using grass drills. When they discovered they could make circular ('O' shape) drills from copper the waste turned out to be exactly what the jewelers had been mixing to make their "fake" or galaze beads with. (It takes about 5 hours to drill one bead using grass.)

Wait so is that for or against the Bead Making tech? What tech do you think should be required for it?

Dilli bags are woven baskets and have been around for yonks as they appear in cave art.

Um ok?

A hydromancer is a water mage. The x is optional :D

Yep. And the X was part of a long story where I forgot my password for AIM and had to make a new account and then added an X to the end of my screenname. And from then on I just added the X to all my online account names. Also Hydromancy was used by Nostradamus to look into water to see the future. Just a random fact for you guys. :D
 
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but I think it would be cool to add in risk to doomsday devices (nukes, bio warfare, nanites, etc). What I mean is that if too many nukes are used everyone loses or there is a serious decrease in population or something that would be devastating. For biological weapons and nannies it could be that there is a timer on how long it takes to spread and then it starts destroying populations.
This would work quite well because you would have to make real end game war decisions that could have serious backfires that could cause you to lose.

Just and idea. Civ 5 needs ROM so badly.
 
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but I think it would be cool to add in risk to doomsday devices (nukes, bio warfare, nanites, etc). What I mean is that if too many nukes are used everyone loses or there is a serious decrease in population or something that would be devastating. For biological weapons and nannies it could be that there is a timer on how long it takes to spread and then it starts destroying populations.
This would work quite well because you would have to make real end game war decisions that could have serious backfires that could cause you to lose.

Just and idea. Civ 5 needs ROM so badly.

That's one thing my nukes always lacked... a type of backlash - well aside from diplo penalties. But the thing added in BTS about the world cracking like an egg was completely stupid and unrealistic, it would sooner put dirt into the air and suffocate all life in the northern hemisphere. Hmm, maybe that's a feature that could be added as a backlash, anyone within the main jet stream (or in civ a random latitude) would suffocate from too much dirt/radiation tossed into the air.
 
That's one thing my nukes always lacked... a type of backlash - well aside from diplo penalties. But the thing added in BTS about the world cracking like an egg was completely stupid and unrealistic, it would sooner put dirt into the air and suffocate all life in the northern hemisphere. Hmm, maybe that's a feature that could be added as a backlash, anyone within the main jet stream (or in civ a random latitude) would suffocate from too much dirt/radiation tossed into the air.

You could have it so that other civs or barbarians/terrorists could steal your nukes and use them against you. Not sure if spies are being added, but they would be great for this as well. This way seems more fair than the "global warming" from civ 4 because it really only affects the player who has nukes, and it is more deterministic.

Also, if you incorporate civ-wide pollution as a trait (like happiness) you could have the sum of all civ's pollution contribute to global climate changes (decreased ozone, rising waters etc). (Technically you'd probably want to take the average pollution so that the effects are normalized across different numbers or starting civs). You could also add diplomacy that would allow you to help convince other civs to clean up their act. If UN resolutions are added, you could make resolutions that affect everyone's pollution output by perhaps giving penalties or rewards, or straight up shutting down power plants if the civ has too much pollution.
 
I would like to offer my service as a 2D artist if you need another - Gallery
 
I think new RoM must be very, very, very realistic.

My thinks & ideas:
-more than 1 unit per tile
-soldiers eat food from near city
-nation crime, health etc. is good idea
-migrations not by happiness ; by rich (number resuorces per tile)
-culture, and gold age in ciV are good for myself :)

Sorry for my English
 
Good to hear that you are planning on continuing RoM in Civ5

Personally as Ive played Civ5 for a while now and I do like the new unit system with limited stacking forcing me to really lay siege around a city etc. However Ive been thinking how to make this system even better. To avoid a wall of text Ill explain the idea briefly here and if ya like ya can always ask for details.

As you know in default Civ5 there are 2 types of units, Military and Non-Combat which can stack on each other. What I have thought is expanding this to 3. The types being Military, Support and Non-combat.

Military units are all the melee and in later are riflemen, tanks and so on. The units that fight by entering a plot occupied by an enemy unit.

Support units would be practically all ranged units (except possible skirmish units who would be in military type) from archers all the way to artillery etc. This would also create the opportunity to change anti-air and anti-tank gun units into Range 1 support units and create for example machine gun that is also a range 1 support unit. In general support units would have a ranged attack or other support ability and be fairly weak in direct combat against military units.

Non-combats stay as is, workers settlers etc...

One minus this does create is that it would kill modularity but as I see it RoM is going to kill modularity even without this from what Ive been reading in this thread ^^

Anyway, if ya like this idea Zap Id be happy to discuss it in more detail sometime. Atm we need to wait till DLL modding comes out anyway as I doubt this could be implemented without it.

PS Ive been fighting with the improvement thing as well. At the moment only improvement change Ive been able to succesfully do is in a test use Citadel graphics for Fort, but making it use other ArtDefines results in nothing same as you =P
 
@Zez
That is a perfectly viable option and I like it. We just have to figure out how to add another unit stack type like 'Support'.
 
I do agree that designing a new tech tree would be tan important step, but I do believe there are some fundamentals that should be agreed first. The Civilization V Rise of Mankind should be similar to Civilization IV's, but there should be some major differences as well, so that it isn't just Rise of Mankind 3.0. One thing that is more fundamental than the tech tree is absolutely the pacing of the game. What should be the time scales of the game? (I'm thinking eight, as with the difficulties.) What should be the time scales per era? What should be the eras of the game?

Rise of Mankind's foundation isn't gameplay over realism. The popularity of Rise of Mankind is exactly because of the people who want the Civilization series to be more realistic and historically accurate. Now, what we see is that the eras in Civilization V, or even in Rise of Mankind, are not wholly accurate in every detail. For example, the Renaissance Era generalized the time between the Medieval Era and the Industrial Era, but there were other eras during that time period as well. The Renaissance Era was generally around the time of Elizabeth I, but what about the Age of Enlightenment? That was certainly after the Renaissance Era, and, although considered in the Renaissance Era, wouldn't the Colonial Era be pretty important as well?

However, the Colonial Era wasn't necessarily important to Great Britain as it was to Spain in the 1500s, and China didn't even have a Colonial Era. Therefore, we see that the Eras system in Civilization V has a general bias to certain countries, which is obviously unintentional, but we see this perspective, if we get into the mechanics of history and apply it to the game, which is not intended to replicate actual history but to simulate a different timeline of history with the mechanics thereof we see and saw in the real world. I would thus propose that there be a wide variety of eras possible, and each country in the game would randomly get different eras, depending on the particular circumstances of the game. China did, after all, come to at least the Medieval Era, when the rest of Europe was in the Ancient or Classical Era, but then China never did go past the Medieval Era and was therefore taken over by the Europeans far into the Industrial Era. In general, however, I believe that eras should be of the first design discussion.

The reason I say these things is not to slow down progress or to be a hindrance towards the design. The reason is because, after the new ship of Rise of Mankind goes, the ability to change or repair the hull becomes much more difficult on the seas than on the harbor from which it went. Eras are the first, fundamental principle for Civilization V, because it encompasses what to do with the technology tree, pacing, and gameplay effects per era that could be added later. However, the issue of eras should be decided first, so that there is a foundation for future improvements. There is an opportunity for a new, fresh start, and we must not throw it away.
 
I think new RoM must be very, very, very realistic.
My thinks & ideas:
-more than 1 unit per tile
-soldiers eat food from near city
-nation crime, health etc. is good idea
-migrations not by happiness ; by rich (number resuorces per tile)
-culture, and gold age in ciV are good for myself :)

Sorry for my English

RoM is the reality-version, isn’t it?

1 unit per tile is a returning problem.
It is when you see the tiles as a 1-on-1 replacement for the squares of good old CIV.

Pro-tiles :With tiles we can have a better development of tactics in the sense of better micromanagement of the battles, but is complicated to move units ... etc.
Con-tiles :We do not want to lose the possibility of army buildup
Even an army spread over more tiles can be managed by new grouping commands

We want the best of both worlds

We can have all that if we realise that a bunch of tiles represents one former square.
Do not think in the easy 1 on 1 translation from square to tile.

More-tile City : If a city is more than 1 tile, you can put more armies in it and still have the benefits of 1 tile per unit fighting… starting as 1 tile village growing to more-tile cities, there is natural growth, thus cities can have more of the same function, adding up production in a naturel way, adding up to pollution, like reality.

Scale: The maps of the game as it is now represent one country and not a continent!
 
My dream mod component/feature would be the removal of workers and the adoption of a CTP2 style public works system. Managing workers on a medium to small map isn't really a problem, but on big ones it's incredibly tedious. You want to put them on automate, but the AI for workers is always horrible.
 
My dream mod component/feature would be the removal of workers and the adoption of a CTP2 style public works system. Managing workers on a medium to small map isn't really a problem, but on big ones it's incredibly tedious. You want to put them on automate, but the AI for workers is always horrible.

I have found the AI workers to be not too bad in Civ V, after you get the techs to build everything, they are hopeless before. They even build the cottages(hamlets/towns) and workshops properly. They do have a bad habit of not running away from invaders, but then only one can fit in a city:mischief:
 
Sorry if I'm intruding, but may I make a suggestion?

I think a cool addition would be to allow cities to be built in mountains. Everyone knows that this is possible, and quite frankly I'm surprised Firaxis hasn't included it yet.

Most towns that are in mountainous areas are smaller, no giant cities lean on one side of a mountain. However, the few that I've been to have been very touristy as well.

If you were to incorporate something like this in your AWESOME mod, then I would suggest that their growth be stunted and their income raised.

Have fun producing this mod, and I can't wait until it is released!
 
Looking at the OP for the first time in a while, I'm surprised I'm not on any of the lists after I told you (Zappara) specifically that I'm willing to help in some fields.
-Coders - I'm able to code in Lua right now and the DLL if certain things happen when the DLL is released.

-XML - Oh please, any programmer can do this

-2D artist - This is also fairly simple for me

-3D artist - this is what I talked to you about at the bottom of page 3

You can sign me up for those four fields.
 
I thought this might be a big enough 'HUZZAH!' to require it's own post:
I just read the HOWTO: New Unit Creation thread and it appears that I will be able to take all the 3d art from Civ IV RoM and put it in Civ V RoM. Now where's that 'huzzah!'? Anyway, I'll still need to animate a few of the absent animations to work from 4 to 5. And now it's time to sleep; I have a big day of modding tomorrow: Fix AMM lua, take a last stab at terraforming, put in new AMM units, import test 3d building/unit for AMM, import shitloads of Civ IV models.
 
I have found the AI workers to be not too bad in Civ V, after you get the techs to build everything, they are hopeless before. They even build the cottages(hamlets/towns) and workshops properly. They do have a bad habit of not running away from invaders, but then only one can fit in a city:mischief:

for ROM, (sorry if this has been suggested) but what about ability to store more than 1 worker in city? I think by size of city would make sense as well. Workers don't give defensive bonus right? (if I'm wrong sorry) so benefit is only hiding them. if say you have a size 10 city.. and limit is 3 workers (rough guesses) if someone takes city with 3 workers in it they gain 3.. just a thought.
 
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