1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

[Civ 5] Rise of Mankind design discussion

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rise of Mankind' started by zappara, Mar 11, 2010.

  1. Arrorn

    Arrorn Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2010
    Messages:
    25
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    what would wheat/other food stuff be used for?

    Offset unit maintenance? Increase city growth?
     
  2. Malchar

    Malchar Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2009
    Messages:
    527
    Location:
    Saint Paul, Minnesota
    While those are both good ideas, you could also have buildings make reference to it. For example, a granary could provide +1 food per wheat resource. Or you could have the quantity of food play a role in determining your civilization's "health" status. You could also have corporations consume them if and when corporations are added.
     
  3. testeddoughnut

    testeddoughnut Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    Messages:
    5
    Hey hey,
    I really like playing RoM and AND, and had a couple ideas I'd like to bring to the table.

    Firstly regarding civics and social policies:
    I was thinking it'd be neat to bring civics back, but have social policies attached to them. Civics would be technology based, like in Civ4, and Social Policies would still be cultural based, like in Civ5. So if you had slavery early game, you could use social policies to "level it up" (like having a policy for "Public Crucifixion" that would reduce local rebelliousness, for example). So if a better civic comes around, such as free market, it's harder to change to it since you have incentives to stay on slavery.

    Second, private sector market and research:
    Another dynamic I was was thinking would be interesting is if there was a private sector market in the game. It would be defined by the civics that you choose, so like if you had free market, that means you would lose some some direct control over the market (meaning lower upkeep per turn due to not having direct control over many of the buildings, but also less gold per turn due to only getting profit from many of the buildings due to taxes) and research (you could provide incentives on what to research, but not get to directly choose), but get increase productivity and research as a result. Might be a little complicated to implement, but I thought it would be a neat dynamic that more accurately represents real life.
     
  4. Malchar

    Malchar Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2009
    Messages:
    527
    Location:
    Saint Paul, Minnesota
    I like this idea. It was similar to something that I was thinking about all along but couldn't really formulate it correctly. To add to this, you could have golden ages allow for extra ability to switch civics, like in Civ 4. The golden age could let you switch into a prohibited tree while getting a partial refund on your old policies or something like that. Or perhaps you could sell off old policies for a culture refund.
     
  5. Ogaburan

    Ogaburan Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    211
    Location:
    Laanisport

    Was also thinking in those line.
    I really like how testeddoughnut & Malchar formulated it.

    I hope Zappara is listening, and if this is doable we should open a threat to brain-storm properly.

    We really need a civ5 forum for "Zappars Civ5"...
     
  6. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Messages:
    16,281
    Location:
    California, USA
    Ok here is an attempt at a prehistoric tech tree using yours, mine and other resources. (See attachment) Note that slavery should probably be an ancient tech and not a prehistoric tech.
     
  7. zappara

    zappara Mod Designer

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,781
    Location:
    Finland
    Added Tekener and poncratias to 2D artist list. If I've missed anyone else who wants to join RoM team, let me know. :)

    @Ogaburan

    I'm listening and reading everything you post even though I don't always have time to reply to all posts. Good ideas are flying around and saw Afforess release Tech Diffusion mod which is cool to have. :)

    About civics and social policies - originally I wanted RoM to have civic/social policy system just like it was implemented in SMAC. Civ 5's social system is bit like SMAC's but it doesn't allow player to change policies inside one category... which I would want to be able to do (as in SMAC). Now this isn't final or anything but just an idea I've been toying with - I think it still needs some refining:

    Each social policy category could have 3 levels (tier 1,2 and 3) of policies and access to each level is limited with techs and with culture costs (or a new point system if we decide to make such change). Each category would hold 6 or 9 policy choices (each level 2 or 3 policies) in tree like formation - kind of like it's now in Civ 5. The point accumulation would be increased drastically to allow player to switch social policies inside categories quite often (like 5-10 turns would be enough to get points for a revolution). Early game it would be quite easy to change between policies that are on tier 1, in mid game you would have access also to tier 2 choices but changing those would cost lot more and in late game you'd get access to tier 3 policies which would be really expensive - this means that the foundation of your empire is cheap to decide but tweaking it to maximum would cost a lot of points and in late game tier 3 policy changes would occur only a few times per empire (since it would most likely change totally how your empire works).

    Now, what do you think? I'm not that good at expressing these ideas on foreign language :D
     
  8. Ogaburan

    Ogaburan Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    211
    Location:
    Laanisport
    @Zappara,

    Well, seems like you already figured everything out.
    Have also made a draft myself so im quite eager to see your own ideas.
     
  9. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    23,540
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    Good work. A few minor points.

    Gathering and Scavenging are the same thing, ie they are synonyms.

    P Music and P Dance should lead to Ritualism not the other way around. P Dance should be a requirement for the barracks building, drill y'know ;)

    Pottery was around long before the wheel. I would put it off basketry.

    Pigments? This does not sound like a tech but what the tech shows. Also what about representational art all those cave, cliff and wall paintings.

    Bone Carving - don't understand this one. Why not just carving?

    Also you have left out
    • Rehtoric(sp?) the art of arguing your case.
    • Geometry - precursor to the generic mathematics and needed to build the pyramids
    • Advanced barter = first contracts, ie not exchange now (= barter) but in the future eg I give you a lamb now for two baskets of grain at harvest time. Maybe this is what trade means, but then it should be earlier.
    • Ancestor Worship
     
  10. DrwHem

    DrwHem Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2003
    Messages:
    300
    can we do something about the opaqueness of the diplomacy system? other than the random civ insulting me i really have no idea about how civs feel about me or eachother. this makes it hard to see who would be willing to ally with me against a specific civ.
    also trading needs to be tweaked. when an empire needs a resource, say silk for ex., they make 150 gpt but are only willing to give me 8 gpt for silk and i have the only supply in the world. can we make the AI value resources more? especially real life expensive resources like gold,silk, and oil.
    and finally, would there be a way to have empires live long enough to actually be met by me? I always play huge maps with 15 civs and by the time i hit turn 300 6 civs have been wiped out and now there is a huge super civ on the other continent. is it me or does it seem like civs are weaker or stronger? in civ4 it would take awhile for someone to get wiped out, not 300 turns.
     
  11. Ogaburan

    Ogaburan Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    211
    Location:
    Laanisport
    @Hydro

    Here are my 2 cents:



    1. I think Toll making should be a first "standalone" tech.
    2. Weaving is a way more advanced ability comes from hunting and that should lead to sailing.
    3. Tool making should lead to basketry.
    4. Pigments? Im not even sure i know what you mean by that... (and it seems im not the only one lol)
    5. A question - Stationary\Nomadic lifestyle? Where are you going with this?
    Zappara has a nice idea of frequent policies change under a "government". SO those two can be policies under "Tribalism" as a government. :goodjob:
     
  12. Malchar

    Malchar Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2009
    Messages:
    527
    Location:
    Saint Paul, Minnesota
    Mysticism requires shamanism and ceremonial burial, but ceremonial burial already requires shamanism.
     
  13. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Messages:
    16,281
    Location:
    California, USA
    1. The way i sepearted gathering and scavenging is that gathering was plants (fruit, berries, roots, nuts, etc) while scavenging was animals (dead animals, shellfish, bugs, etc).

    2. I figured that ritualism meant that they do the same social patterns or "rituals". I thought they had to come first before ritualism. Also why would dance be part of the barracks?

    3. Again a remnantof RoM. I agree. Potter came before the wheel, however it is arguable if the wheel came from pottery and not as a mode of transportation first.

    4. Pigments is for Natural Pigments. Its discovering "dye resource" in the game but made to be a pre-requite to petroglyphs (aka. cave paintings) and Personal Adornment (aka. body painting).

    5. It was "Bone Working" however i suppose there could be a carving tech. Its to separate it from say working with wood or stone or metals. Remember there are some tools/weapons that are bone based such as beads, bone needles, harpoons, fish hooks, etc. In fact "Bead Making" maybe should be a tech. It could be a pre-requite to trade or something and require personal adornment too.

    6. Rhetoric? Um ok. Maybe its better called like "Debate" or something.

    7. Geometry is put in a later tech. Note that pyramids are an Ancient Era wonder not Prehistoric Era.

    8. Advanced barter needs a better name. I think its included with "Trade" tech.

    9. Hmm "Ancestor Worship" sounds like a good one.

    1. What do you mean "Toll Making" or do you mean "Tool"? If "toll" then that would be a later tech for say toll roads. If "tool" then i have no idea what you mean by "stand alone"? Because you cannot make tools without "gathering" materials to make the tool. Thus "tool making" should require "scavenging" and in turn also already required "gathering".

    2. Weaving is not that advanced. We are talking about like weaving floor mats and that stuff to begin with. All the stuff by hand. Note this is not sewing or advanced loom weaving. Also sailing if you look requires weaving

    Gathering -> Weaving -> Basketry -> Trapping -> Trap Fishing -> Boat Building -> Boat Fishing -> Sailing

    3. What tools do you need to make baskets? You just use your hands to weave plant fibers together.

    4. Pigments mean pre-paint. Such as colored dirt, ash, plant juices, etc. Basiclly the "dye" resource.

    5. Nomadic lifestyle mean they have no cities yet but have mobile "encampments" that can pick up and move around the map. The "encampments" can research and produce units but cannot defend, build buildings (except for special cases), work more than one plot of land or grow past level 1. Sedentary Lifestyle on the other hand can build permanent cities that do everything a Civ5 city can do.

    EDIT: Ok I added an updated tech tree with some changes we discussed. Feedback is appreciated.
     
  14. Ogaburan

    Ogaburan Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    211
    Location:
    Laanisport
    1. lol, i meant tool making. And there are actually studies that prove that tool making is possible without "gathering". Chips in the Congo make tools on-the-spot to get termites from termite nests. Not much gathering needed, unless u call picking up a stick as a "gathering technology".

    But its more or less semantics. Its just how i view things.

    2. I stand my grounds on the weaving tho.
    Weaving is a really advanced technology, you need to be able to make a needle first... then harvest the materials needed either hives or wool.
    Early floor mats (and some modern ones) are made by tanning.

    3. The tools to cut down the bark of the tree used to make the basket? I am unaware of any kind of fiber baskets, but then again i didn't know some goats have wool about a year ago.

    4. Did you mean basically? :p lol. The only problem with this tech is i dont see any use it can have in game. Maybe to reveal dyes?

    5. Was just trying to give you advice about interesting in game implications. Seems you also gave it some tough.
     
  15. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Messages:
    16,281
    Location:
    California, USA
    1. Yes, gathering basically means "collecting". So yeah collecting sticks would be a form of gathering.

    2. You don't need a needle for "weaving" you need a needle for "sewing" which is a more advanced technology. Basiclly your weaving stuff like mats or rope. Neither need a needle to make. Though rope making probably should have its own technology. Or at least knot tying (later era tech).

    "Hives"? I assume you mean "hides", and yes hides or wool would be "sewing" not "weaving". However if it was hides, then perhaps we need a "tanning" tech for making leather.

    3. Baskets can be made from grasses and reeds. You can always just pull the bark off some trees too. But mainly it would be reeds I would think.

    4. I said pigments is to reveal dye resource.

    5. Um, ok.

    EDIT: Ok here is an updated tree with some "Golden Age" techs.
     
  16. OMG!!!

    OMG!!! EVIL mastermind

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2010
    Messages:
    82
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Bhartiya Commune
    Too many techs if you ask me, some like gathering or tribalism are assumed as default in any human society. Sedentary lifestyle drives to agriculture instead of the other way around, etc.
     
  17. chueche

    chueche Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    95
    For me cant be enough techs. Go ahead guys. More is more:)
     
  18. Civ Fuehrer

    Civ Fuehrer Eat, Sleep, Mod

    Joined:
    May 8, 2008
    Messages:
    1,227
    Location:
    CA, USA
    For anyone interested (probably the Hydro Man(cerx) for the most part), I wrote up a nice little intro for the Civ V version of ATOM along with some redone techs that seemed off or redundant to me.
     
  19. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    23,540
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    @Hydro, any dance instructor will tell you that getting people to fight in formation is dance, so the drill that soldiers still do is a form of dance.

    Early stone working, beads and jars for example were done using grass drills. When they discovered they could make circular ('O' shape) drills from copper the waste turned out to be exactly what the jewelers had been mixing to make their "fake" or galaze beads with. (It takes about 5 hours to drill one bead using grass.)

    Dilli bags are woven baskets and have been around for yonks as they appear in cave art.
     
  20. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    35,645
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    A hydromancer is a water mage. The x is optional :D
     

Share This Page